France says "no" to the European Constitution

[Shadow Nexus]

And here are the results. Blue for yes, red for no. Even though red occupies most of it, the votes for the "No" were of a 55%:

[Gibsie]

"totally owned"

[Skogs]

That's why I admire the French. They don't give a damn about what anyone thinks of them.

However, I still think they made a mistake...

[gokufusionss1]

thank god for that, die consitution die.

I hope for your all grateful for that in depth political analysis.

[Psychotic]

It's just delaying the inevitable. In 100 years time, heck, possibly 50, Europe will be like the United States of America, but the United States of Europe. As much as you or I don't want that, it's going to happen so although we've won the battle, we will lose the war eventually.

[gokufusionss1]

Not if we bomb it


Seriously though i don't not think a united states of europe is inevitable infact the trend in the last hundred years was the breaking of large countrys into smaller countrys Austria hungry, russia, yugoslava. We can all sit in our respective countries saying hi and trading without having to have the same laws, leaders and liars.

[Psychotic]

I hope you're right gokufussions, I really do. But from the vice-like grip the bureacratic and unaccountable (and therefore undemocratic) European Union holds over the citizens of member states, I really can't see how it can be stopped. The constitution is just one more step along the road towards Federal Europe, along with the Euro. (And I will be extremely surprised if Britain doesn't have the Euro in less than 20 years time.)

[Shadow Nexus]

I believe the problem is that this constitution has more market laws than citizen laws. I am not against Europe united, I am against Europa united under the euro!

[tomamar04]

A united Europe, like 1 country would be stupid. Think of all the different cultures and laws etc.

[edczxcvbnm]

It wouldn't stop you. The united states is like that. We have federal laws which apply everywhere but all 50 states have their own individual laws with their own penalties. We also have all sorts the different cultures all mingled in together here. It is far from impossible and is very realistic for Europe to be one country.

If I knew what the EU constitution that is being proposed was about then I would call stupid or good vote on this one...but since I don't I will not say. If it was more about market laws over setting up a federal type government...I understand. The EU was suppose to be a step towards easier trade in Europe and it has accomplished that but because it was suppose to be about trade and economic stuff it really doesn't suprise me. I wish it had been more about a federal government.

Something tells me that the majority of people who voted had no clue what the constituion contained though and just didn't like the idea of losing their power.

[Shadow Nexus]

You think it makes sense for the Constitution to be nearly entirely formed by market laws? Market laws in a constitutional level?

Not to mention the supposed Europe of peace and progress is trying to pass a constitution full of pro-militar, neoliberal laws. And the supposed defense of nature only has one very vague article. What the hell? I am amazed how people in my country (and in other countries of Europe, I suppose) are stupid enough to believe Europe is socially and legally centuries superiorin the advancements in reference to the U.S, while in reality US and Europe politicians are just as hateful. Actually, most people attempt to defend this constitution claiming it will make us strong to face the US economically, and make the EU a second world power. Yes, whatever. Yet the Constitution still sets Europe under the NATO, though it develops andother military force. Yes, we have enough problems in Spain to be wasting money on tanks and airplanes while the young people can't even get to be independent because of the apartment prices, and old people get miserable pensions, we are attempting to keep economically with all this new people entering the country, etc, etc, etc


Anyway, I'm not going to start with a anti-Constitution pamphlet now, but I am absolutely against it, it even reduces some labour rights.

Oh, and the intention was never making a United States of Europe.

[edczxcvbnm]

I guess I didn't really make a lot of sense with what I had said. I don't think that market laws are a good idea for a constitution but I think it makes sense that what was proposed was mainly market laws as the EU is mainly a market organization. Does that sound better?

I will also admit that I don't really know a whole lot about what goes on in Europe with a lot of this stuff as it isn't really news over here as it doesn't affect us. As much as I may want to know it isn't really ever presented. I have to go outside US news to read about pretty much anything not directly related to us. Which I can't be bothered to do most of the time. So please, don't be to hard on me if I don't quite understand something or something I say is completely ass backwards(not saying you are but just for the future). I am just mis-informed.

[Psychotic]

Oh, and the intention was never making a United States of Europe.

The constitution itself wouldn't create the US of E, but it would certainly lay down the foundations for its creation.

[gokufusionss1]

The USA is utterly different it was a union of 3 million anglo saxons mostly prodestant and all culturaly similar, all of them supporting the identical legal system. Further non anglo saxon immigrants were forced to interegrate, to some extend culturaly but totaly in terms of law and justice. To that effect america remains in it's laws and general sense of culture heavily anglo saxon. While Europe is a combination of distinctily different countries with there own seperate ways and means and no single thread of continuity running through it. Any intergration between the nation states would require each country to give up major slices of their culture and law for a single common european identity. This is what i fear and this is what the contitution despite it's claims of thinning out legistation is the first step towards.

On a side note the french rejected the constitution on large part due to it's tendacy to an British style economy based on much more open trade and far less socialist. We just approach life from different ends of the spectrum.

[Cloud No.9]

who said european ministers were not accountable? they are accountable in the exact same way your government minietrs are. you voted for them. well actually most peopel didn't becasuse they were too damn apathetic to bother. so meh. you could vote for your share. if you missed the chance then that's your fault what til next time and make them accountable the same way you do in a general or local election.

these people are not faceless beaurucrats mnost people just don't take the time to look at thei face. except when they are whining.

i would like to see the constitution signed. if you actually read it (i would not recommend it, it's one of the most broring things ever written and is not for thr layman) then it really makes very little difference to how things are done now. there are a few changes but nothing will majorly change. people say we will be giving up our controls and sovereignity. that's already been done. it's about cohesion. it's about an actual constitution where all previous rules are in one place as well as some new ones. it needs to be signed in order to move forward. and put it this way what's the worst that could happen? it's not a major changing document. i don't even see the need for a referendum on it.

i would like to see a united states of europe. it wouldn't be impssible. cultural difference will not matter. scotland has kept it's identity for a few hundred years after being taken over. the seperation of the countries is a good thing for the creation actually. things most fragmate to the best stae before they can reform.

i personally would like to think of the eu as the new zollverein.