Ultimecia/Rinoa Similarities

[rubah]

I think Square may have meant to use this story of R=U but decided against it in the end but still left all the points hidden in the game. Ultimecias castle being located right were Rinoa and Squall promised to meet...

The game shows us why her castle was there, though: To slaughter the SeeDs. Squall and the others find their dead bodies strewn across the beach behind Edea's Orphanage. Ultimecia likely decided to wipe out her foes before casting Time Compression to settle a grudge.

Sorry but I dont get what you mean by that, I dont remember the game showing any explanation on why the castle was there.

Before teh castle when you're leaving Edea's place, there's bodies everywhere, is there not?

I can't remember because I haven't played that part in a long time.

[MushroomZOMBIE]

Yeah,there were bodies of dead SeeD (Which looks EXACTLY like the White SeeD of Edea's!) near Ulty's castle.

[Sir Bahamut]

I didnt realize that but thinking about it, I think that could back up R=U theory. I think trying to become all powerful and changing the world for unknown reasons is a poor excuse for the main villains motives.

Firstly, if you've played many FF games, you'll know that the motives behind the villains are in most cases to destroy the universe/world simply because they are pure evil/mad/both. Off the top of my head I can mention:

FF1, FF3, FF5, FF6, FF7(arguable, depending on who you think the main villain really is), FF9(Necron). Is it really that farfetched that Ultimecia fits into the same category?

Secondly, no offense meant, but it's not really about what you think is a good motive. This isn't about anyones personal opinions, It's about what is the most plausible and logical conclusion based on what the game presents us.

[Slade]

That FAQ was awsome

[MushroomZOMBIE]

I couldn't see it.
Not that no one cares......

[Destai]

I think Square may have meant to use this story of R=U but decided against it in the end but still left all the points hidden in the game. Ultimecias castle being located right were Rinoa and Squall promised to meet...

The game shows us why her castle was there, though: To slaughter the SeeDs. Squall and the others find their dead bodies strewn across the beach behind Edea's Orphanage. Ultimecia likely decided to wipe out her foes before casting Time Compression to settle a grudge.

Sorry but I dont get what you mean by that, I dont remember the game showing any explanation on why the castle was there.

Before teh castle when you're leaving Edea's place, there's bodies everywhere, is there not?

I can't remember because I haven't played that part in a long time.

Yes I remember that scene word from word but I dont see why that ties in with the castles location.

Firstly, if you've played many FF games, you'll know that the motives behind the villains are in most cases to destroy the universe/world simply because they are pure evil/mad/both. Off the top of my head I can mention:

FF1, FF3, FF5, FF6, FF7(arguable, depending on who you think the main villain really is), FF9(Necron). Is it really that farfetched that Ultimecia fits into the same category?

Secondly, no offense meant, but it's not really about what you think is a good motive. This isn't about anyones personal opinions, It's about what is the most plausible and logical conclusion based on what the game presents us.

Yes I do remember and have played all of those but 3.FF1 was pretty old and nes wasnt exactly the era of deep RPG's. An enemy who was trying to the destroy the world because he was the bad guy was acceaptable enough. FFV's villain as you said wanted to rule the world because he was the bad guy and Kefka was crazy. Spehiroth had a purpose and Jenova was an alien, You could look at her as a diesease to the planet. Kuja was the main villain of IX, he had a reason and Necron was a superior being whos purpose was to oppose Zidane for whatever reasons he stated. Considering the ammount of detail that went into the rest of VIII I do expect the villain to have a purpose for destroying time and living by herself for an eternity. She didnt even have a backstory of any sort. What Ultimecia wanted is more far fetched than the rest of them for no particular reason. And as for that second thing you mentioned, thats your opinion : P I think Rinoa being Ultimecia and, yknow actually having a reason for wanting to destroy the world is more logical than, you know not having a reason for destroying the world. So wait for my opinion before you preach to me about giving my point of view.

[Mo-Nercy]

What if Ultimecia was actually Selphie? I mean think about it. They have the same facial structure. Isn't Selphie really fond of the trains? What would happen in a world where there are no more trains? Would she not turn evil and seek to destroy the organization that ruined her beloved train system? Or what about the similarity in their costumes? I think we're overlooking some MAJOR similarities, people! R=S! It CAN'T be disputed!

I love you man.

[Squall of SeeD]

Yes I remember that scene word from word but I dont see why that ties in with the castles location.

Because the castle is directly above the Orphanage, where all of those fresh bodies are. Ultimecia hates SeeDs. She was about to complete her master plan and achieve ultimate power, changing all time as it had been known to be. Do you see the "2+2" part of this I'm getting at?

She wanted them dead because she hated them, so to settle her grudge before she initiated Time Compression, she killed them.

It's a very common thing for villains to do.

Considering the ammount of detail that went into the rest of VIII I do expect the villain to have a purpose for destroying time and living by herself for an eternity.

Ultimecia having no other reason than being evil and wanting power would arguably be a part of that detail. Final Fantays VIII plays off of the concept of fairy tales, you know? Witches, Princesses, Knights, undying true love, the perfect maiden (who also happens to be the Princess), these thiings represented with Squall, Rinoa, and Ultimecia. Whether there's a deeper meaning to it or not is irrelevant in light of the archetypes these characters are adapted from.

Hell, look at the Witch in Snow White. Her whole reason for the things she did was because Snow White was prettier than her. It doesn't take much to set the insane Witch ladies of a fairy tale off.

As for her being alone for eternity, that's not necessarily true. She could only exist in fully completed Time Compression because she was the one casting it. That doesn't mean she intended to let things remain that way forever. Use Scan on her final form. She was absorbing all time and space into herself. She was only using Time Compression to gather it all together and obtain the power she needed to do this. Note also that she told SeeD that they would be her slaves for eternity. No doubt she intended to remake the universe with herself as its God.

What Ultimecia wanted is more far fetched than the rest of them for no particular reason.

Her being greedy and wanting ultimate power as a result is more farfetched than Kefka deciding he wanted to kill everything -- but cause it to slowly suffer and succumb to despair first -- as a result of being crazy, or JENOVA and Sephiroth wanting to kill Gaia and absorb its Lifestream just to become more powerful?

I think Rinoa being Ultimecia and, yknow actually having a reason for wanting to destroy the world is more logical than, you know not having a reason for destroying the world.

Kefka certainly didn't need a reason other than that he thought it was fun, but anyway, Ultimecia wasn't trying to destroy it for the sake of destroying it. She wanted to become the universe. She wanted to be God.

[Destai]

Well firstly, If Im being paranoid and you dont know where Im comeing from with this Im sincerley sorry but its four in the morning and I get the feeling you're subtley patronising me in parts of your response and Im too tired to not kick up a fuss over it. Im saying what I genuinely think and I've explained why I think so, with that in mind if you are trying to irritate me knock it off.

Yes I remember that scene word from word but I dont see why that ties in with the castles location.

Because the castle is directly above the Orphanage, where all of those fresh bodies are. Ultimecia hates SeeDs. She was about to complete her master plan and achieve ultimate power, changing all time as it had been known to be. Do you see the "2+2" part of this I'm getting at?

She wanted them dead because she hated them, so to settle her grudge before she initiated Time Compression, she killed them.

It's a very common thing for villains to do.

Well now I see what you're getting at and it makes sense but I dont remeber the game saying that the castle was transportable. I know it floats but it was tied down by chains. Yeah you could say theyre an anchor or something but I didnt feel the game made much suggestion that Ultimecia ever moved the castle. I felt she just left it parked in the same spot for most of the time. The corpses were fresh its fair to say but whos to say the SeeD's didnt come to her as opposed to vice versa?

Considering the ammount of detail that went into the rest of VIII I do expect the villain to have a purpose for destroying time and living by herself for an eternity.

Ultimecia having no other reason than being evil and wanting power would arguably be a part of that detail. Final Fantays VIII plays off of the concept of fairy tales, you know? Witches, Princesses, Knights, undying true love, the perfect maiden (who also happens to be the Princess), these thiings represented with Squall, Rinoa, and Ultimecia. Whether there's a deeper meaning to it or not is irrelevant in light of the archetypes these characters are adapted from.

Hell, look at the Witch in Snow White. Her whole reason for being so evil was because Snow White was prettier than her. It doesn't take much to set the insane Witch ladies of a fairy tale off.

As for her being alone for eternity, that's not necessarily true. She could only exist in fully completed Time Compression because she was the one casting it. That doesn't mean she intended to let things remain that way forever. Use Scan on her final form. She was absorbing all time and space into herself. She was only using Time Compression to gather it all together. Note also that she told SeeD that they would be her slaves for eternity. No doubt she intended to remake the universe with herself as its God.

FFVIII was packed with a fairy tale theme? Sorry I dont buy it and maybe its because its four in the morning but I dont see where your coming from with that.

What Ultimecia wanted is more far fetched than the rest of them for no particular reason.

Her being greedy and wanting ultimate power as a result is more farfetched than Kefka deciding he wanted to kill everything -- but cause it to slowly suffer and succumb to despair first -- as a result of being crazy, or JENOVA and Sephiroth wanting to kill Gaia and absorb its Lifestream just to become more powerful?

Kefka was crazy and personally I think hes lacking as a villain but besides that, yeah his only excuse was being insane. Sephiroth wanted to serve Jenova and I myself view Jenova as a diesease. I mean a sickness anyone will pick up will cause harm because that is its nature.

I think Rinoa being Ultimecia and, yknow actually having a reason for wanting to destroy the world is more logical than, you know not having a reason for destroying the world.

Kefka certainly didn't need a reason other than thought it was fun, but anyway, Ultimecia wasn't trying to destroy it for the sake of destroying it. She wanted to become the universe. She wanted to be God.

Well I genuinely never had that pointed out to me, my impression of time compression was all existence would die and she would be alone for an eternity. She may have said the SeeD's would be her eternal slaves but I recall Rinoa saying only she (Ultimecia) could live in a world like that. Once she got off the Ragnarok. If I had to decide Id probably agree with you that Ultimecais quote should be taken more literal.

And now I shall sleep.

[BackRoomKid]

^^^may you have sweet dreams of floating castles, dead SeeD's and spammage will surround your post

no, Ultemecia never says "I picked this spot because of its amazing view" but I see where SquallofSeeD is getting at (i think? i'm normally confused by his posts) I guess Ulty figured, SeeD's started here (the orphanage) so I'll camp out here straight to the source, kill them all with time comphrehension/compression/compensation, whatever, and park my castle right over the beach

but when it comes down to it...no, the game does not specify the details of why Ulty picked that spot, or her decorations for that matter

[Squall of SeeD]

Well firstly, If Im being paranoid and you dont know where Im comeing from with this Im sincerley sorry but its four in the morning and I get the feeling you're subtley patronising me in parts of your response and Im too tired to not kick up a fuss over it. Im saying what I genuinely think and I've explained why I think so, with that in mind if you are trying to irritate me knock it off.

I wasn't, though being tired myself, I see that I had written it in such a way that it could be construed as such. Sorry about that.

Well now I see what you're getting at and it makes sense but I dont remeber the game saying that the castle was transportable. I know it floats but it was tied down by chains. Yeah you could say theyre an anchor or something but I didnt feel the game made much suggestion that Ultimecia ever moved the castle. I felt she just left it parked in the same spot for most of the time. The corpses were fresh its fair to say but whos to say the SeeD's didnt come to her as opposed to vice versa?

The fact that it floats is enough to suggest that it's mobile. As for your point about the SeeDs having, perhaps, mounted an assault upon Ultimecia there, it's possible, sure, though I personally find it more likely that the giant floating castle was floating about and then parked there while Ultimecia slaughtered her mortal enemies.

Why have a floating castle that has to be anchored with chains in the first place if you aren't ever moving it?

FFVIII was packed with a fairy tale theme? Sorry I dont buy it and maybe its because its four in the morning but I dont see where your coming from with that.

I didn't say that it's packed with it, but it certainly plays off of it. You'd absolutely have to be trying to ignore it not to see it.

What do the Forest Owls call Rinoa? "Our Princess":

Zone
"Just take it easy. Here, let me introduce you."
"Looks like you already met Watts."
"I guess it's just our princess then."


Watts
"It's the princess' nap time, sir."


Zone
"Ahh, man..."
"Hey, Squall, sorry, but could you go get the princess?"

What do Zell and Quistis call Rinoa? "The Princess":

(Note: They even make a joke about the concept of a Prince's kissing awakening the sleeping Princess, a common theme of Fairy Tales.)

(On the Esthar side of the Horizon Bridge.)

Quistis
"Squall, you're late."

Zell
"Is the princess still asleep?"

Quistis
"She might wake up with a kiss from the prince."

The fact that Rinoa went into that coma in the first place was a play on the concept of the maiden of a Fairy Tale going into a deep sleep (see Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs or Sleeping Beauty).

Well I genuinely never had that pointed out to me, my impression of time compression was all existence would die and she would be alone for an eternity. She may have said the SeeD's would be her eternal slaves but I recall Rinoa saying only she (Ultimecia) could live in a world like that.

Yes, only Ultimecia could live in the Time Compressed existance, however, Ultimecia was absorbing all existance itself into her own being. She wasn't destroying it, but reshaping it. She was becoming one with it all. She would essentially be the all-permeating force in the universe, because she would be the universe, with the power to shape it at her will. Thus, she would be God.

And, yeah, I definitely think that Ultimecia's quote should be taken literally. She tells SeeD she's going to send them to a dimension beyond their imagination where she will rule and they will be her slaves:

"Insolent fools!"

"Your vain krusade ends here, SeeDs."

"The price for your meddling is death beyond death."

"I shall send you to a dimension beyond your imagining."

"There, I will reign, and you will be my slaves for eternity.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA."

She wasn't speaking of destroying them, though.

[Sir Bahamut]

And as for that second thing you mentioned, thats your opinion : P I think Rinoa being Ultimecia and, yknow actually having a reason for wanting to destroy the world is more logical than, you know not having a reason for destroying the world. So wait for my opinion before you preach to me about giving my point of view.

Sorry, but it sounded like you were embracing the R=U theory simply because you like the concept, which is clearly a logical fallacy.

[Destai]

Alright, Im not allowed type messages after two pm anymore ><
edits: Am. No more all nighters for me.

[Skyblade]

I think in all probabilty her castle was mobile to begin with, and was designed to be used as a weapon against the Gardens (possibly it was one of the Gardens, but the architectural changes are too large to make that plausible). I think she took out the Gardens (which were mobile well before she gained power) first, then settled in to assault the final home of SeeDs: The Orphanage. Notice that Balamb Garden is no longer sitting comfortably in FH where you left it. In fact, Trabia is still in shambles, and neither Balamb nor Galbadia Garden are anywhere to be found in the Time Compressed world.

The Knight, The Evil Sorceress, The Princess, The Black Knight... Yeah, FFVIII had a major fairy tale theme going on. Oh, and don't forget the Knight in Shining Armor protecting the Sorceress from the marauding Dragon (Laguna's movie).

Oh, and bravo on casting Scan on Ultimecia. Not anything I ever bothered with, I admit. In fact, I forgot the spell completely by the endgame.

[Rand Al'Tor]

The game takes some trouble to tell us that Sorceresses have a tendency to become corrupted by their power and become evil. So Rinoa 'becoming evil' isn't such a stress to believe.

So long as she has Squall it is. That's what a Witch's Knight is there for: To be their stability and remind them of that part of them that is a normal human being.

Yep... but Squall will die one day. (this means of course we get in the 'do Sorceresses have extended lives discussion)

Rinoa, in a romantic conversation with Squall says she wishes that 'time would stop this moment'. In a game where the villain wants time compression, I think the writers have a reason for that.

Time Compression wasn't used to stop that moment on the Ragnarok in time. It was used to compress all time into a single moment, or "existance at once." This was so that the Witch Embodiment in all of its incarnations would be forced into one instance. With SeeD killing the other bearers of the Embodiment as they passed through Time Compression, that released their incarnation of the Embodiment, and the power was then there for Ultimecia to claim.

It's not exactly the same, true. But I still say that, in a game where the villain's plot involves messing with time, the hero's romantic interest that has a potential to go evil ALSO expresses a wish to mess with time to stave off loss, combined with other stuff, if that happens, the writers ARE hinting.

The ending movie has repeated flashes between Rinoa and Ultimecia, ending with Squall's eye opening widely with a tear. To me, that doesn't seme like a desperate 'I give up' expression but that of someone who realizes a 'Very Bad Thing'

You skipped the reason that Squall's tear was there: It was him seeing the faceplate on the suit Rinoa was wearing in space shatter. He was seeing her die. That's why he shed that tear.

Hm, yeah.... I drop that argument then.


[uote]

Rinoa asks Squall to promise that if she ever goes evil, he will kill her. Nice irony, as Squall DOES do that (or well...at least assists)

Possibly. He's not necessarily even present in the battle any longer at that point. He can be absorbed into time the same as the others when they fall. [/quote]

Yeah, but him being most likely the strongest of the gang, it can generally be assumed he'll at least have fought her. Drama and Game are sometimes in opposition.


Logic was mentioned, and a always in the discussion, I make the case that in games like this 'can you logically assume it's true' is less important than in real life and 'does it make a cool story' is more important. After all, plot holes happen. So I agree that there is no definite proof that R=U, just some things I see as definite hints, but in the context of a video game, those hints are enough.