I am familiar with the book and it's filled with as much mis-informtion & propaganda as Revisionist books of the opposite end of the spectrum. Do NOT base your views on that garbage. Open your mind.
I am familiar with the book and it's filled with as much mis-informtion & propaganda as Revisionist books of the opposite end of the spectrum. Do NOT base your views on that garbage. Open your mind.
the book has a certain amount of truth in it. yes alot of germans helped with the holocaust. the guy who desgined the gas chambers, the ovens, the guys who created zyklon b in the factories, the train drivers, engineers, timetablers, the men who built the autobahn.
but what's the point in arguening over it? first of all that wsn't the wermacht anyway so your ideas about the wermacht were not influenced by that.
am i going to ask for the death of the men who built the cages for camp x-ray?
they did what was asked for them.
being a soldier isn't about morals, it isn't about politics, it isn't about what you believe in. it is about following orders. the politics which alter your orders don't matter. what the order is doesn't matter. it is an order from your country so you obey it. the same was true in nazi germeny. but the idea was enlarged for the rest of the population. that is what authotarian is.
ps. the wermacht actually did alot more of the holocaust than they were blamed for. hitler thought it was a waste of his best soldiers (the ss) to be used for merely rounding up the untermench. they were more needed in russia (where the ss actually did alot of rounding up). but for the most part the holocaust was done by the lower ranks of the german army as it was not deemed worthwhile for the higher ranks.
Actually you're wrong about the SS. Hitler's 'best soldiers' as you call them were the Waffen-SS, a fighting machine so ruthless it stiked fear into it's opponents.
The men who guarded the camps were NOT these soldiers, or Wehrmacht soldiers, they were the general SS or Allgemeine SS. The Allgemeine SS were not a military organisation but a paramilitary organisation made up mostly of reject from both the Wehrmacht & Waffen SS and aging men & women.
The groups in the East that rounded up the resistance & jewish peoples of the USSR were Einstatzgruppen, literally translated, Operations Groups of the Allgemeine SS & Polizei.
Whilst I agree there were units of the Wehrmacht that committed atrocities it was certainly not organised by OKW. Army officers had to sign away certain papers to grant Einsatzgruppen access but they did not participate in large numbers.
The fact is, nearly every General opposed this, from Blaskowitz to von Kleist, from Rommel to v. Manstein. This is why German officers switched theatres with amazing frequency.
German officers of WWII were of the old Prussian style of leadership, they despised politics, most despised Hitler & his cronies but their anally retentive Army morals made them despise treachory, as they seen it, even more. This was their flaw. There were a great many who protested & a great many sacked, the ones who went too far were sent to camps themselves, or executed. Generaloberst Franz Halder, the Army Chief of Staff from 1938-42 was sent to a camp for disagreeing with Hitler. Guderian, the inventor of Blitzkrieg, was sacked in 1942 fort his opposition to the conduct of war on the east. Generalfeldmarschall v. Kleist & Generaloberst Blaskowitz were too sacked for their strong & vocal opposition against the treatment of Eastern natives.
It is a common misconception that if a German officer was not involved in the July '44 Bomb Plot, he was pro war & pro Hitler. This is simply not true, the vast majority despised him but simply thought the bomb plot was not the right way to do things.
Wehrmacht officers had a crisis of morals which Hitler played to them max.
tis true of the generals. i know the on in charge of normanday on d-day was in trouble and when asked if he wanted to ask hitler for reinforcemnets replited "i will not ask anything from that jumped up little coporal"
sorry about the wermacht thing. that part of my education 5 years old now. kinda getting ruisty.
Cuchulainn, just out of curiosity, do you hate the allied nations? Since your profile points that you are from Ireland, I take that you might be bitter about the British occupation of Ireland? On the other hand it is also the US who funded the British to keep the English Vs. IRA conflict going as long as possible. I am asking because you sounded angry about the alliance. I just want to get a neutral standpoint so I believe it is a good idea to understand who I am talking with.
Why on earth are you taking 'bitterness' from anything I say? I am speaking about a subject I know a lot about while taking an objective standpoint, something people on the victors side see to struggle to do. I have pointed out points people may not know, while recognising the Nazi regimes obvious abhorant history. I have mentioned little about British or American war crimes and zero about Ireland. This has nothing to do with anything. Has it got this bad that someone cannot point out glitches in the sanctimonious standpoint of the victors without the paranoia of it's citizens thinking I have a hidden agenda somewhere? If you must know, I firmly believe that Nazi Germany was rightly taken down, I also believe, while this was needed, some Allied nations motives were not pure, namely the USSR. Stalinism was not Communism, they are two seperate entities, so this isnt anti-Communist either. I'd answer further, but I think you need to ask yourself some questions before you ask me any further where I stand.
PS: Americans funded us too you know.
Last edited by Cuchulainn; 06-23-2005 at 03:32 AM.
You want to talk about the Whermacht and how soldiers should be punished? What about Stalin's armies? What about the Turks and what they did to the Armenians? What about the Serbian forces under Milosevic? Should all of those soldiers be killed?
You're an eighteen year old kid, fresh from home and in the army for the first time. You go someplace, doesn't matter where or when or why, and your superior officer tells you to shoot a man/woman/baby. You shoot them or your head gets blown off. Which do you think you'll choose? We'd all love to say we'd die before committing an atrocity like that, but you'd be suprised how far the survival instinct goes.
I'm not saying that the soldiers of the Whermacht are guiltless, far from it. But you can't dehumanize a soldier because s/he did something awful under orders. That's just being a soldier. It doesn't mean s/he liked it, and it doesn't mean s/he has no remorse.
Grouping the Whermacht as a bunch of bloodthirsty, inhuman ghouls is just like grouping people based along race, religion or any other thing that they can't really control. And yeah, soldiers can control their actions, but when the penalty is your life, can you really say you'd do any different?
Signature by rubah. I think.
Also, even if the soldiers had no remorse, should they be punished when it wasn;t thier decision?
If a childs father tells his child to steal, and that child does it, enjoys it, and doesn't think twice about it afterwards, who is to blame? Who should be punished? Not the child.
Both should be punished, else the child may never learn that stealing is wrong. Of course the child's punishment would be the proverbial slap on the wrist, wheras the father would be punished with a full sentence for whatever he had stolen.Originally Posted by nik0tine
As for the regular soldier bit. It was war,happens. You can't genocide the enemy for the decisions of a few. And the lack of remorse for a few.
STILL Updating the anime list. . . I didn't think I was that much of an anime freak! I don't even want to consider updating the manga list!
I don't recall hearing about Allied soldiers conducting genocide on a massive scale, never seen before in history, and hopefully never to be seen again.their actions as soldiers on the Western Front was no better or worse than than the Allied soldiers.
Yes, troops fighting and losing should not be punished simply for fighting. However... there's fighting, and there's fighting. Axis soldiers (not just Germans, by the way, but many others) did not fight for a 'reasonable' cause, like gaining terrian, resources, or for somehow bettering the conditions of their country and people... they fought for the complete annihiliation of their opponents, they fought to further the effort of genocide, they fought for absolute and ultimate evil, for complete domination and control. It's problematic to have mercy for someone with that kind of intentions.
Morally, they should've all perished. However... it cannot be done, neither practically, nor morally on our side. We are not murderers like they are. We got the 'big sharks', for the symbolism of it, and left the others for their courrput, hideous existence as losers of a rediclously evil attempt.
When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one yourself... when gazing into the abyss, bear in mind that the abyss also gazes into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
The rightful owner of this Ciddie can kiss my arse! :P
the germans actually did not conduct a genocide on the western front. they were too bus fighting a war. the even treat american jewish POWs equally. the americans had some fun tricks for POWs. the would have them sleep in a field. no tents. sorrounded in barbed wire and goven shovels to create their own sleeping holes. and sometimes at night a fun game was to fire machine gun fire about 6 foot in the air over their heads. the germans had similar such fun.
but a genocide was not commited against the fighting forces (except russia)
germany fought for gaining resources as much as anything else. living space. to be self sufficient. they believed that wiping out the jews would allow it to be less corrupt and cleaner. and wiping out the slavs gave alot of spare room.
the normal german soldier did not fight for politics, genocide, invasion, evil. he fought for one thing, his country.
if a war crime was committed it should be punished. but an innocent soldier cannot be punished merely for figthing. that is his job. no matter for what reason he fights. if he obeys the rules of war he is an innocent man. a mans views are not what should be judged in a war. merely the way in which he fights for them.
regarding war crimes though....... it comes back to that age old problem. is a man responsible for what he was ordered to do?. at nuremburg it was decided that he was. but was that a mistake?
I'm talking about the Wehrmacht, German Armed Forces, NOT the SS, read what I type next time, properly, before you reply & make yourself look foolish. Also please research a subject before you decide to get involved.
Yes, they killed them. Also, many times, the Jewishness of an American soldier was un-known to them.they even treated american jewish POWs equally.
This applies to you, actually. I was talking about ALLIED soldiers did NOT commit genocide, while AXIS soldiers DID commit genocide. Get it? Also, about this -read what I type next time, properly, before you reply & make yourself look foolish.
is something I can only adress with a dismissing smile. You don't have a clue who you're talking to, obviously.Also please research a subject before you decide to get involved.
The terms 'innocent' and 'soldier' cannot be used together. A soldier is a trained killer, or one that supports the killing. There is no innocence in that.innocent soldier
Fighting, no. He was fought against as well. However, for the Hell-wrought destruction Axis soldiers have brought upon this Earth... they most certainly can, and should be punished. Many of them have.cannot be punished merely for figthing.
Exactly. His country was the embodiment (if you could call it that) of evil and genocide. Fighting along-side or for Germany was fighting for the mass-killing of millions of innocents, and fighting for the annihiliation of the free world.the normal german soldier did not fight for politics, genocide, invasion, evil. he fought for one thing, his country.
Most certainly. A man is ALWAYS responsible for what he does. Here, it is ILLEGAL to obey immoral commands, like if your commander tells you to kill a kid (who is not posing an immediate threat) and you do it, you'll get jailed for life, as will your commander. Saying 'I was ordered to' when regarding to illegal orders relieves you of no guilt or responsibility.is a man responsible for what he was ordered to do?
When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one yourself... when gazing into the abyss, bear in mind that the abyss also gazes into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
The rightful owner of this Ciddie can kiss my arse! :P
Cute reply, enough to full the casual observer. I on the other hand am not fooled. Show me evidence that German soldiers participated in Genocide on a mass scale, concrete proof. Until then everything you say about the Wehrmacht will be laughed at by people who know this subject well.
You appear to be naively confusing Wehrmacht with SS & don't care aout the truth, just harp on & on with the same old same old.
PS: I don't know who I'm talking to, but I know what I'm seeing & the person behind those woirds can't be up to much. Quit the aloof persona, you need to be able to back that up. You are simply making statements warped & clutched by memories of Pinewood & Hollywood war movies & western school books. Possibly you may have occasionally ventured to the History Channel. Excellent.
In many cases, POWs received reasonable treatment in German camps. Not universally, by any means, as there are many recorded POW murders - but by and large, the treatment was adequate. As opposed to, say, Japan's routine torture and murder of captured enemies, whether military or civilian.
It's interesting that Russia's direct involvement in the invasion of Finland and Poland was never called into question by the post-war tribunals. It was deliberately determined that only the Axis powers would be punished for their acts. This has led to the long-standing accusation that the tribunal was a politicised entity, with implications of "victors' justice" taking a role.
I personally believe it'd be abjectly stupid to condemn or punish every German soldier who fought in the war. Those who participated in war crimes and genocide, certainly - but not those who abided by the rules of war.
Cuchulainn, please stop the personal attacks against other posters. Disagree with their sources, certainly, but do not criticise the member responsible. A debate like this should remain impersonal and respectful. War Angel is an Israeli citizen, so he's naturally going to have strong views on this topic. Please bear in mind that opinions, and reasons for those opinions, are many and varied. I'd hate to have to close a thread on an important topic.
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