Go there, but don't accept what you see as fact. There's quite a few errors in there. I'll list them all here:Originally Posted by bbomber72000
-Sephiroth Section-
Their psyches didn't intermingle. Zack simply told Cloud all aboutLocked outside, Tifa wasn't there to see what happened, and Cloud wasn't there either - he was guarding her. His memories of the event stem from his time with Zack as their consciousnesses intermingled in the pods underneath Shinra Mansion.
what happened after their during their imprisonment or after their escape, and Cloud soaked up what he was told:
Note that Cloud didn't adopt anything of Zack but his status as aCloud
"I never was in SOLDIER."
"I made up the stories about what happened to me five years ago, about being in SOLDIER."
"I left my village looking for glory, but never made it in to
SOLDIER......"
"I was so ashamed of being so weak; then I heard this story from
my friend Zack..."
"And I created an illusion of myself made up of what I had seen
in my life....."
"And I continued to play the charade as if it were true."
member of SOLDIER and his role in the Nibelheim mission. Not his
hometown, not his parents, not his girlfriend. Just those two things.
In every other respect, he remembered himself as being Cloud Strife of
Nibelheim.
In all likelihood, those were pieces of JENOVA and not astral"Shinra's ultimate success story would soon become their ultimate nightmare, as Sephiroth's body was transported to the Northern Crater through the Lifestream and sealed in a Mako chrysalis. His psyche, powerful enough to actually coalesce into physical form, began to travel the land, searching for his "mother," JENOVA. This is why Sephiroth can fly and appear transparent and almost ten times normal size at some points in the game. He can also travel through the ground at points as well. His true body is in the Northern Crater; his mind was so strong that he can move around mentally in a physical state he fashioned for himself to retrieve the Black Materia and summon
Meteor."
projections. JENOVA's Cells can change their form ("Sephiroth:
'Cloud... Don't blame Tifa. The ability to change one's looks, voice,
and words, is the power of Jenova.'"), so it would be simple enough
for its pieces to appear as Sephiroth.
For an explanation of this, look below:
(From Final Fantasy VII Analysis.)
It's also debatable as to whether or not Sephiroth was manipulatingOriginally Posted by Squall of SeeD
things or if JENOVA was manipulating things (including Sephiroth), but
that's not a discussion for this matter.
This is incorrect on most every count. It's fully known that rape did"Sephiroth's true mother was Lucretia, the woman Vincent secretly loved, and his father was Hojo. Hojo, impregnating Lucretia (rather or not rape occurred is unknown), injected his own unborn son with JENOVA cells while he was still in the womb. He then subjected him to artificial aging to accelerate his growth."
not occur in regard to Lucrecia, as she is shown in Vincent's
flashback hugging and kissing Hojo. She even rejected Vincent for him.
Also worthy of note is that Hojo was not the only one to inject
Lucrecia as is so often suggested. It's forgotten quite often that the
JENOVA Project was Gast's project. He and Hojo both carried out the procedure, as Hojo and Lucrecia were his assistants. They willingly
offered up their child and Lucrecia herself to experimentation:
Something else that needs to be pointed out is that Sephiroth was notCloud
"Sephiroth is your son!?
Vincent
"......!"
Hojo
"Ha, ha, ha..."
"I offered the woman with my child to Professor Gast's Jenova
Project."
"When Sephiroth was still in the womb, we took the cells of
Jenova..."
"HA, HA, HA!!"
subjected to accelerated growth. He was roughly 25 years old at the
time of the experimentation. If you'll recall, Gast was killed after
being discovered by Hojo only 20 days after Aerith was born (the name
of the tape at Icicle Inn states that his and Ifalna's daughter was 20
days old; in the game's present, Aerith is 22 years old).
Further, Elder Bugah of Cosmo Canyon states that it has been some 30
years since Professor Gast discovered JENOVA:
Obviously, the terrible thing Gast was accusing himself of was"You can't talk of the Ancients without mentioning Professor Gast. He used to come here sometimes. He was a ShinRa scholar who spent his life studying the Ancients. He was a serious person, never would've figured he'd be with the ShinRa. Must've been about 30 years ago, when he found the corpse of an Ancient. He was elated! If I recall.. he named it 'Jenova' and was doing a lot of research.. One day, he showed up here, looking real distressed. He was mumbling something about Jenova not being an Ancient and that he'd done a terrible thing. He's been missing since then. I heard that he never went back to ShinRa."
Lucrecia's apparent death. He would have left Shin-Ra after that, it
seems, later met and married Ifalna, and then was killed only 20 days
after their daughter's birth.
There's no flaw in such a theory. Hojo's scientific experiments on"The JENOVA cell mutation idea has one major flaw in it, glaring to even the most unlearned eye. Nowhere else in the game did JENOVA cells lead to an actual physical mutation. They instead seem to have a focus on the mental aspects of their host/victim. Only Hojo mutates through three forms as you fight him, but this is probably more a result of his scientific experiments than of JENOVA's influence."
himself were JENOVA Cell injections. Immediately after stating that he has injected himself with the Cells, he states that he is going to
show AVALANCHE the results:
Also recall the mutated creatures in the pods outside ofHojo
"I've injected Jenova's cells into my own body!"
"Heee, hee, hee!"
"Here are......"
"Heee, hee, hee!"
"...my results!!"
JENOVA's Room. Those were also JENOVA mutations, most likely, as they appear to be hooked up to feeds from JENOVA's Room.
In all fairness, we don't know what Hojo did to Vincent. It's never"Vincent's limit breaks probably function in a similar manner, seeing as Hojo not only injected him with JENOVA but with the cells and
physical properties of various monsters."
touched upon in-game.
There's no implication that Vincent's left arm is damaged. He's"And, within those injections, were other agents, probably responsible for his damaged left arm and his limit breaks."
wearing a gauntlet. For that matter, he's wearing a different gauntlet
in Advent Children, so he can obviously take that original guantlet
off. Further, in Dirge of Cerberus screenshots, the gauntlet has
spaces between the joints showing what appears to simply be a leather
glove beneath, meaning the metallic yellow parts are simply grafted
onto the leather:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ysGauntlet.bmp
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...sGauntlet2.bmp
For that matter, when looking at a large version of Nomura's design of
Vincent for VII, the black leather can be seen between the joints of
Vincent's claw:
http://photobucket.com/albums/v132/S...tValentine.jpg
We don't know that the same dose of JENOVA's Cells was given to Cloud as Hojo gave to himself. For that matter, JENOVA/Sephiroth never"If this is not the case then I ask why Cloud does not change physical appearance at any point in the game."
attempted to force him to transform, nor did he ever attempt to do so
himself.
Further notable concerning JENOVA transformations are Sephiroth's final forms, which only consist of torsos, just as only his torso remained:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...rothsTorso.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...WithNoLegs.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ithNoLegs2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...orsoEdited.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...rsoEdited2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...oSephiroth.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/v132/S...rSephiroth.jpg
I would consider this a rather glaring case of mutation.
-Holy and Meteor Section-
Had that occurred, there would have been no reason for Holy to even"Holy may have interpreted the real threat to the Planet not as Meteor but as humanity itself."
interfere with Meteor in the first place. It could simply have done
nothing and allowed Meteor to impact. Sure it would have caused a
wound to the Planet, but without JENOVA/Sephiroth coming to asborb the Planet's Spirit Energy, it may not have been fatal. In any event, Holy tries to stop Meteor and this should be taken into account. Further, Nanaki states that it was "too late" for Holy.
We need to keep in mind that Holy had been summoned weeks before this point in time, but had been held back. Some of its power may have
diminished. That would not only fit with the "It's too late for Holy"
statement (rather than a "Holy's turned against us" statement), but
would make sense in regard to Meteor apparently converting Holy, as
its blue-ish white changed to red. That would also fit with the
Lifestream's arrival, coming to add more power to Holy. If you'll
recall, it converges beneath Holy, in the spot where Meteor was
passing through. The flash that follows is Holy's colour returning.
Holy emerged simply as a beam of energy. It gathering beneath Meteor"Perhaps we are overstating the power of Holy. When it emerges from the Northern crater and moves underneath Meteor it seems to resemble a shield, rather than some kind of magical force."
was simply the only logical thing for it to do. If it had slammed
straight into its side, it would have simply knocked it off course and
caused it to plummet into the Planet in another spot rather than on
top of Midgar. Getting beneath it and then forcing its way up would be
the only logical course of action.
There's a few points you forgot to consider:"We also know that Meteor has hit before. This of course isn't really touched on in the game but that's irrelevant - it doesn't have to be. Anybody who knows anything about FF7 knows what I mean when I say "Northern Crater." Northern Crater was created by Meteor's summoning, and we know this is true for two facts. One, what else could have created such an impact? JENOVA falling to the Planet couldn't have created such a gaping wound because her mass is simply not large enough, especially as compared to Meteor. Two, in the Temple of the Ancients we see a mural depicting past events in an Egyptian style art form. Painted by the Cetra (who else?), it clearly shows somebody using the Black Materia (JENOVA, perhaps?) and then Meteor striking the Planet."
1) The rate of speed at which an object descends toward a Planet's
surface affects the potency of the impact. We don't know how fast
JENOVA was falling.
2) JENOVA can shift its mass at will. It very well could have been
larger than is seen in the JENOVA-SYNTHESIS battle, especially
considering that the other JENOVA creatures fought before that point
were taller, and in the case of at least one (JENOVA-BIRTH), it was
just a transformed tentacle of JENOVA.
3) The gigantic fissure that we can fly the Highwind down into later
in the game wasn't always that size. At one point, the hole was only
slightly larger than the Highwind, whereas Meteor was the size of
Midgar. There was merely a hole within a large bowl-shaped recess in
the Planet. When the WEAPONs awakened, however, the area surrounding the hole caved in (you can see pieces of rock falling as Sapphire WEAPON and Diamond WEAPON make their way out of the hole), leaving that entire bowl-shaped recess as a giant hole, large enough for the Highwind to descend into easily:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...hernCrater.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ernCrater2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ernCrater3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ernCrater4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ernCrater5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ernCrater6.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ernCrater7.jpg
As far as the mural in the Temple goes, the Temple itself was the
Black Materia. That there would be a mural depicting what it could do
should be little surprise, especially with the obvious Mayan architecture of the Temple. Mayans often use hieroglyphics to simply explain things or to record prophecies. Those murals are not necessarily recordings of past events.
If you'll recall, Bugenhagen learns of Holy in the City of the"Indeed, I would wager that Holy isn't as powerful as Bugenhagen made it appear to be. Holy's purpose was essentially a Meteor counter, not a giant reset button for the Planet.
...
And of course we know Holy cannot be the metaphorical reset button
Bugenhagen makes it out to be, because, once again, of the Northern
Crater's existence."
Ancients from their knowledge that was floating around in there.
Concerning Aerith:
Aerith had to go to the Ancient's City because she didn't know about
Holy yet. If you'll recall, she says that she felt like she was being
led by something, and that the secret was waiting for her there. Now
recall that Bugenhagen learned of Holy from the knowledge floating
around in the City. Likewise, so did Aerith. She didn't have to be
there to pray for Holy. She simply chose to perform the prayer right
away once she learned what the White Materia did.
Also, her death wasn't pointless. While Holy failed to stop Meteor on
its own (and it didn't turn against humanity), the implication offered
by the ending is that it was Aerith that sent the Lifestream to
strengthen Holy. Her theme plays while it rises and she appears in the
wake of Meteor being negated. This certainly suggests that her spirit
guided the Lifestream into action. While her death seemed as though it
was going to avail nothing, in the end, it proved a stroke of fortune
on the party of humanity, because she saved them in death.
By the way, Square's intent for Aerith's death wasn't intended to appear as self-sacrifice. In fact, the whole point was that it not be self-sacrifice, and, instead, feel like it waspointless, because they felt that that is how death feels in reality and that the dramatic self-sacrifice cliche was unrealistic and sent the wrong message to people.
In the May 2003 issue of EDGE magazine (issue 123), there is a
six-page "Making of..." feature on Final Fantasy VII in which
Yoshinori Kitase (Director and Co-Scenario Writer of Final Fantasy
VII) and Tetsuya Nomura (Character Designer of Final Fantasy VII) were interviewed and asked about various points concerning Aerith's death. During the course of this interview, Nomura says the following:
"Back at the time we were designing the game, I was frustrated with
the perennial cliche where the protagonist loves someone very much and so has to sacrifice himself and die in a dramatic fashion to express
that love. We found this was the case in both games and movies, both
easter and western. But I wanted to say something different, something realistic. I mean, is it right to set such an example to people?"
Kitase follows that up with this:
"In the real world, things are very different. You just need to look
around you. Nobody wants to die that way. People die of disease and
accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad
attached to it. It leaves, not a dramatic feeling, but a feeling of
emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much you feel this big empty space and think 'If I had known this was coming I would have
done things differently.' These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in
the players with Aerith's death relatively early in the game. Feelings
of reality and not Hollywood."
(For proof of this magazine's existance, the "Making of..." feature,
and the dialogue in the interview, refer to these images:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...murasIdeas.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...urasIdeas2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...urasIdeas3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...rithsDeath.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ithsDeath2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ithsDeath3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...03Issue123.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...e--May2003.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ingofFFVII.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ngofFFVII2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ngofFFVII3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ngofFFVII4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ngofFFVII5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ngofFFVII6.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ngofFFVII7.jpg
(Note: Just for the hell of it, while on the subject of this issue of
EDGE magazine, it should also be noted that here Kitase stated that
reviving Aerith was never intended:
"The world was expecting us to bring her back to life, as this is the
classic convention. But we did not. We had decided this from the
beginning. There was a lot of reaction from Japanese users. Some of
them were very sad about it, while others were angry. We even received a lengthy petition addressed to our scenario writer asking for
Aerith's revival. But there are many meanings in Aerith's death and
that could never happen."
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ToStayDead.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...oStayDead2.jpg)
With Kitase's words about death being unexpected in mind, consider
Cloud's dream in which he speaks to Aerith in the Sleeping Forest.
Aerith intended to handle JENOVA/Sephiroth on her own, and then come
back:
Also consider Tifa's insight into her friend's intentions:Aerith
"And let me handle Sephiroth."
Aerith
"And Cloud, you take care of yourself."
Aerith
"So you don't have a breakdown, okay?"
Cloud
"What is this place?"
Aerith
"This forest leads to the City of the Ancients... and is
called Sleeping Forest."
Aerith
"It's only a matter of time before Sephiroth uses Meteor."
"That's why I'm going to protect it. Only a survivor of the
Cetra, like me, can do it."
Aerith
"The secret is just up here."
Aerith
"At least it should be. ...I feel it. It feels like I'm being
led by something."
Aerith
"Then, I'll be going now. I'll come back when it's all over."
Further note that in Aerith's dialogue with Cloud in his dream, sheTifa
"I wonder what Aerith felt... when she was on that altar...?"
Cloud
"I'm sure she wanted to give her life for the planet..."
Tifa
"Really? I wonder? I don't think that's it at all."
"I think she didn't think she would die at all, but that she
planned on coming back all along."
"She always used to talk about the 'Next time'."
"She talked about the future more that any of us..."
didn't know what she was going to find when she got to the City of the
Ancients. She only knew that something was awaiting her there and
that she could feel herself being led there. Based on Bugenhagen
learning of Holy when he got there from the knowledge floating around
in the City, it's logical to assume that Aerith did likewise:
Her sudden death was as much a surprise for her as it was for manyBugenhagen
"This is..."
Bugenhagen
"Yes...... exactly..."
Cloud
"Are you getting something?"
Bugenhagen
"...Give me a moment."
Bugenhagen
"The knowledge of the Ancients swirling around here is telling me
one thing."
Bugenhagen
"The planet's in a crisis..."
Bugenhagen
"A crisis beyond human power or endless time."
"It says, when the time comes, we must search for 'Holy'."
Cloud
"Holy?"
Bugenhagen
"Holy... the ultimate White Magic. Magic that might stand against
Meteor. Perhaps our last hope to save the planet from Meteor."
players of the game. Kitase intended this to be so.
The Lifestream was doing nothing on its own. Had Holy not shown up and held Meteor back, the Lifestream would have been too late even if it were taking action on its own. In any event, again, the implication"Whatever the case, nobody can deny that she didn't have to die because no sane person can say to himself that Holy was a requirement in the Planet's salvation."
offered is that the Lifestream was adding strength to Holy.
Even if one considers Holy pointless, Aerith still needed to be within
the Lifestream in order to cause it to act. For whatever reason, the
other Ancients that were part of it had done nothing.
Also noteworthy, the image that appears in Aerith's church likely isn't a
ghost at all, but just a glitch. Aside from the fact that it only
appears whil the screen is loading, there's the fact that it is
visible on Disc One when she is still alive.
-Lifestream Section-
The article mentions 12 Mako Reactors, but there were actually 13. There had been one on Fort Condor, as well:
Something else to note is that the way the Lifestream replinished its"It appears you have a problem with Shinra, too. After all, you
climbed up here."
"Why not listen to what I have to say for a moment?"
Cid
"All right, talk on!"
"Do you know what's at the top of this mountain?"
Barret
"Huh? Something's up there?"
Cid
"No matter how you look at it, that's a reactor. And on top of
it, is that the Condor?"
"I can see you're very perceptive. Yes, it's a reactor and a
condor."
"Looks like there's a special materia up in the Mako reactor."
"Then came the condor, so Shinra dispatched the troops to get rid of it."
"Their plan is to get rid of the condor and the people on this
mountain and to get the materia from the Mako Reactor."
lost energy was from the memories of those who died. Memories = Spirit
Energy/Pyreflies = Lifestream = Materia/Spheres in Final Fantasy. In
Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within, we're told that it is the
experiences (memories) of an individual's lifetime that add to the
Gaia/Lifestream and help it to grow:
"All life is born of Gaia and each life has a spirit. Each new spirit
is housed in a physical body. ...Through their experiences on Earth
each spirit matures and grows. When the physical body dies the mature
spirit enriched by its life on Earth returns to Gaia bringing with it
the experiences, enabling Gaia to live and grow."
That should pretty much cover everything wrong with the article. Destai, as noted in the analyzation of it, the Sephiroth forms seen throughout the game were most likely JENOVA and then pieces of JENOVA, with only the last two seen before Meteor is called being astral projections. Note that neither of these two forms conduct physical interaction.




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