ff12 the end? or a new(arguably horrible) beginning?

[Cyraniel]

People have complained about how the FF series is "going to Hell" ever since FF7 came out. Half the FF games are considered "un-FFish" or whatever. I find it annoying. Just don't play the damn game when it comes out if you already don't like it. People who condemn games without having even played them just come off as ignorant whiners to me. The FF series has been constantly changing. FF11 has more classic Final Fantasy elements than FF6, it's just online and uses a new battle system. Some people make it sound like FF was built around the ATB system... which it didn't start using until FF4.

[crashNUMBERS]

I dont think there'll ever be a FINAL Final fantasy...

[Mercen-X]

It's never been the battle system or other mechanics that have made the Final Fantasy titles what they are, it's been the in-depth and engaging plots and interesting characters.

Exactly.

Some people make it sound like FF was built around the ATB system... which it didn't start using until FF4.

Actually, I find the earlier games to play rather slow (due to game mechanics), I can get bored at times, waiting for my characters to attack or waiting to be attacked. I play anyway 'cause I like the stories.

Something I find funny is that some people say the newer fast-paced battle systems make the game too easy or unrealistic. I then calmly reply to them, "What are you, on crack?"
FFX did have an easy battle system, it being that for every character, time stopped so the player could calmly choose which action to take next . . . or walk their dog around the neighborhood.

I know, I just mean that people use the term 'hardcore fan' far too often. Like "I was a hardcore fan but this game sucked so now I hate the series", which makes me say... well, you must not have been a very big fan to begin with.

Because of this lull between XI and XII, a lot of good RPGs have had a chance to shine, which may have been outclassed simply because of the name FF being released nearby it. Now, of course I dont want FF to go, but America and Europe do get a lot of amazing games, and it's time we started taking advantage of it instead of worrying so much about FF.

Mechanics dont matter much to me as long as they arent horrendously done (like in Parasite Eve 2, I couldnt even play that game because of the controls).

we're seeing so many interesting and innovative games on the market now that if FF doesnt start experimenting and expanding, they may get buried by more interesting series (like the Nippon Ichi games, and Mistwalker).

1: Hardcore Final Fan through and through. (Actually, I can't stand how slow the original Tactics is, won't touch TA 'cause the story reminds me of that Castlevania "choose your adventure" book, and I consider console games and online games to be two separate genres altogether. I'd play XI if they made a direct-to-console-only version.)
2: Have you ever played Guardian's Crusade? It's not something you'd spend more than ten dollars for but it is enjoyable. One RPG I despise is Dragon Quarter: Breath of Fire. Simply by walking, you increase your "dragon meter" and if you turn into a dragon, it's game over. WTF!? I've been up 17 floors or so and gotten my meter to 97% just by walking, no dashing or fighting involved, still I haven't reached any conclusion or some place to restart the meter. I've found a few RPGs (let alone any other genres) to contain game mechanics that seem for the most part to be an impossibility. These, I fondly refer to as "WTF" Mechanics.
3: To each his/her/its/their own . . . I played PE2 before I knew what PE was and beat it in a week. The game came off as a Survival/Horror genre but played like an RPG. I thought it was pretty cool. Something weird: At the end, it showed me a list of ALL the items I'd collected and hadn't used, it chucked them in exchange for non-refundable points. The point value was then used to determine my reward. I'm pretty sure it was an item I'd already had. I thought that was lame. I figured if I had collected more, I'd have gotten a better item . . . but, I returned the game to the rental shop and erased my game data (by accident, formatting incident: RPG Maker).

[Lenna]

People have complained about how the FF series is "going to Hell" ever since FF7 came out. Half the FF games are considered "un-FFish" or whatever. I find it annoying. Just don't play the damn game when it comes out if you already don't like it. People who condemn games without having even played them just come off as ignorant whiners to me. The FF series has been constantly changing.

I agree with this. Just because you don't like a game, does not mean the whole world does. Yes games are changing, yes some may lack qualities that many of the others had, isn't that what makes unique? Sure, some of the ff's have unlikeable parts, but doesn't every game?

I personally like every one of the final fantasy's I have played (and that is 1 - 10-2, not necessarily completing them may I add but I have played them at least to mid-game.) I do find some part's in the games are rather mislead, but that's certain parts, not the whole game. A true FF fan must see the games for what advantages there is, an FF fan does not condemn the whole series because one lacks certain qualities. Every FF fan has to admit, that there is at least one point in an ff game, that they actually enjoyed. If you just like the games and are not really much of a fan, then saying an ff game isn't good doesn't damage it's reputation as much.

EVERY FF fan has a different liking to the certain battle skills and story lines that Square come up with, so claiming that one FF is completely rubbish, is hardly relevant. An opinion is an opinion, but arguing over someone saying they like a game. I don't understand.

Everyone is different, everyone see's things differently, many people will love FFXII, many people will despise it, and some will think it's "OK". No one is going to have the same opinion and like EVERYTHING the way the other person does. That'd be creepy. :P

It is not about what is bad about the game, or anything, it's about what captures you into playing it, and keep playing it. If you don't like the game, then why play it? Computer games are there for entertainment. Not boredom. If you don't like a game, don't play it, if you don't like the way things are going in a certain game series, then learn not to buy and play them? because you'll end up moaning all the time. No matter what game or movie etc you have an opinion on someone will always like the game, and if the games liked then what's the problem. It doesn't do any harm.

I see too many people fight about which FF game is the best, and I have constantly seen FF8 being put down by many people. I personally think that the graphics and music in that game are by far brilliant, but the storyline did not stand out as much to me as FF7 did. So whenever the subject comes up I always stay out of it. Because I myself don't really have a favourite FF, I have favourite pieces of each one. But FF7 remains to be the number one in my list (doesn't necessarily mean it's my favourite, it's just the one that I play most) as it was the first one to captivate me into the series as it is.


So yeah! Stop damning FF games!! Square have done a brilliant job in entertaining people up til now, let them carry on entertaining! As there's always someone who will enjoy what they have to offer.

[TheAbominatrix]

It's never been the battle system or other mechanics that have made the Final Fantasy titles what they are, it's been the in-depth and engaging plots and interesting characters.

Exactly.

Some people make it sound like FF was built around the ATB system... which it didn't start using until FF4.

Actually, I find the earlier games to play rather slow (due to game mechanics), I can get bored at times, waiting for my characters to attack or waiting to be attacked. I play anyway 'cause I like the stories.

Something I find funny is that some people say the newer fast-paced battle systems make the game too easy or unrealistic. I then calmly reply to them, "What are you, on crack?"
FFX did have an easy battle system, it being that for every character, time stopped so the player could calmly choose which action to take next . . . or walk their dog around the neighborhood.

I know, I just mean that people use the term 'hardcore fan' far too often. Like "I was a hardcore fan but this game sucked so now I hate the series", which makes me say... well, you must not have been a very big fan to begin with.

Because of this lull between XI and XII, a lot of good RPGs have had a chance to shine, which may have been outclassed simply because of the name FF being released nearby it. Now, of course I dont want FF to go, but America and Europe do get a lot of amazing games, and it's time we started taking advantage of it instead of worrying so much about FF.

Mechanics dont matter much to me as long as they arent horrendously done (like in Parasite Eve 2, I couldnt even play that game because of the controls).

we're seeing so many interesting and innovative games on the market now that if FF doesnt start experimenting and expanding, they may get buried by more interesting series (like the Nippon Ichi games, and Mistwalker).

1: Hardcore Final Fan through and through. (Actually, I can't stand how slow the original Tactics is, won't touch TA 'cause the story reminds me of that Castlevania "choose your adventure" book, and I consider console games and online games to be two separate genres altogether. I'd play XI if they made a direct-to-console-only version.)
2: Have you ever played Guardian's Crusade? It's not something you'd spend more than ten dollars for but it is enjoyable. One RPG I despise is Dragon Quarter: Breath of Fire. Simply by walking, you increase your "dragon meter" and if you turn into a dragon, it's game over. WTF!? I've been up 17 floors or so and gotten my meter to 97% just by walking, no dashing or fighting involved, still I haven't reached any conclusion or some place to restart the meter. I've found a few RPGs (let alone any other genres) to contain game mechanics that seem for the most part to be an impossibility. These, I fondly refer to as "WTF" Mechanics.
3: To each his/her/its/their own . . . I played PE2 before I knew what PE was and beat it in a week. The game came off as a Survival/Horror genre but played like an RPG. I thought it was pretty cool. Something weird: At the end, it showed me a list of ALL the items I'd collected and hadn't used, it chucked them in exchange for non-refundable points. The point value was then used to determine my reward. I'm pretty sure it was an item I'd already had. I thought that was lame. I figured if I had collected more, I'd have gotten a better item . . . but, I returned the game to the rental shop and erased my game data (by accident, formatting incident: RPG Maker).

1. Sweet. :<3: I feel the same about Tactics. I've only beaten TA because I have the rom and can speed through.
2. I've seen the thread on the game and I was interested to play it, but no I havent. I may try and find it when I get paid.
3. I have no beef with the game itself... it's the mechanics that bugged me. The controls. I was really looking forward to play ing PE2, as I loved PE1, but in PE2 I couldnt get Aya out of the first room and I just got pissed and gave up. The controls were, for me, horrid, so it automatically just annoyed me, but then again I'm an old and crotchety gamer and I dont like these kids screwing up the basic controls xD. I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, it was inverted control (up = down, left = right), and that's what drove me insane.

[Heartless]

I dont think there'll ever be a FINAL Final fantasy...

All things have an end.

[Lon611]

i won't judge FFXII till i play it, but imho, it seems to be a great game. im very intersted how the plot will turn out, but the only thing that bugs me is Vaan's character design

[crashNUMBERS]

I dont think there'll ever be a FINAL Final fantasy...

All things have an end.

True, But you never know...

[Sarkis]

Im still going to try FF12 i feel it worth at lest trying since Square has allways been good with RPG's but i guess what has me the most worryed is the fact that it will play like ffXI from what i here. THis isent so great MMORPG's are Completly deferent games from RPG's. I play FFXI and I find the way Combat works to be extremly tedeus at times. I allso hate how they force you to party becouse your Charicter is never powerfull enof to Solo but thats another story. As far as Some FF games Like FF7 haveing the problem of every charicter being the same thats simply not true. Yeah you can set up there skills or matera to give them all the same ablitys but each charicters stats are slightly different and there weapons add more to each charicter and to what they can do. They dont all have the same HP and MP even at the same level wth the same Gear. If any FF game had an issue with charicters being exactly the same it's FFX. If you spend the time to Complet the entire Grind with all of the Charicters then they end up allmost exactly the same with the Exception of weapons and a small diference Due to starting stats,but again thats another story for another thread. Im allso worryed about the fact that the guy in charge of FFXII is the one who created Vagrint story. I know thats awsome news to come fans but Personaly i hated the game. Then again I have allways been into the hardcore tradition RPG style of game play and i guess thats a huge facter as to why im so nitpicky about FFXII. It will come out, I will buy it, I will most likely hate it becouse it seems to be following in the path started by X and XI but i can allways hope I'll like it. And it may or may not kill Final fantasy for the Traditional RPG fans. I just hope it doesent end up like another FFX-2. I will cry big girly tears if FFXII kills final fantasy with it's "uniqe" and "fun filled romp" into Offline MMORPG failure. Inovation=good PLaying mad Scientist and warping the game beyond recagnition=bad.

If you take Dragon warrior and stuff some Moggles a few Chocobos and an Airship inside it wont make it Final fantasy. Final fantasy is allso a style, a standerd and a kind of feel to the games. FF1-7 had it even 2 and 2 sucked. ff8 and ff9 Had plunty of it to even when they were very deferent they were both good and still fall into the group of wich i speak. FF10-11 including 10-2 however lost alot of what im talking about, FFXI even more so. Yes FFXI is a good MMORPG but it's in no way anything like Final fantasy since it's not an RPG and it's story kinda sucks. IMO it should never have been asigned a number, final fantasy Online would have been a better name. FFT has more of that FF feel to it then XI does lol. Not to say FFT doesent count ether but it is a spin off and technicly so is FFXI it falls into the same group as Mystic Quest, and Legend of Mana ect.

And thats it for my little rant i'll just cut it off here since I know Some fans are going to spend at lest 5-10 minits tearing it apart.

[Lionx]

You totally lie(not in a bad way XD) when you say FFXI has a bad story. What rank are you? Did you start Zilart and CoP missions? They are totally baddass. The story is deep, you have to persue it among other things and fight with it in your party. You obviously havent went deep enough. FFXI's only real departure is that you arent the main main character anymore, and you share a world with many other people and instead of controlling a party, you control yourself as a single unit in the group and depend on one another for survival. It is still very FFish IMO even though many things adapted to an MMORPG style.

Missions1-9 are introduction. You learn about the world around you and the main characters in the game. Memorable characters that have personality.

Missions afterward are about the nation's darker side and its surrounding areas. Zilart is about the beginning with the Zilart vs the Kuluu and how the Crags and other things came to place. The cutscene for ZM4 is fantastic and totally amazing. The story is definitetly there. CoP is even better however i have yet to touch a promyvion, but from what i seen its hard and its really really great. You need to progress far enough to see it though and from what i see you havent.

BTW what makes things FF anyway? O_o All this talk about new FFs not being FFs..what makes them FF anyway hm?

And to the comment about SE making crappy AI..try taking this boss in FFXI's CoP mission; Heres the tatic:

Omega & Ultima Weapons BC(burning circle aka boss) battle.
This battle take place on an airship with massive airfleet escorting you. the site itself was jaw dropping enough.(also known as the airship armada)

= 1st stage : 5 x Mammet-22 Zeta
They have around 3k HP, as strong as the ones at A01's BC. can't be slept or gravitied. (so therefore you cant sleep the monster to rest or you cant make it walk slower[gravity] to kite around the field)

PLD(Paladin) has to hold 4 of them at once(holding hate is a dynamic system..wont go into it here but its not easy) while rangers kill them off one by one. These monsters will keep changing their jobs which makes their abilities unpredictable. 2hours(limit breaks that can be only used once every two real life hours...they are very powerful but bosses can easily use them over and over) and potions must be preserve at this stage and shouldn't be used.

-= 2nd stage : 1x Omega Weapon.
Can be slowed, paralysed and Bound.

First half it will play defensive. Just like FF5, it can stone you and drain all your status. Second half it will do massive AoE(Area of Effect, in other words hits multiple targets or your entire party) lasers and high damage single target missiles.
Potions still shouldn't be used at this stage.

= Stage 3 : 1x Ultima Weapon
Can be gravitied and bound

The first half it doesn't do much. It has defense up ability, some weak AoE attacks and similar to Omega it can stone a single target. Upon reaching the second half, it will activates it's offensive mode and will be using AoE 800+ damage and single attacks. This is where everyone need to keep their pots and abilities for.

The fun part if that this BC only has time limits of 45 minutes for ALL 3 stages. Which mean you shouldn't spend more than 10 minutes on stage 1 and 2 each to have enough time for Ultima Weapon.
It's fun ;D

The money to prep this battle is enough to make you feel challenge. You guys really need to play more into the game...i hope to be able to take down end-game things to gain the skill to beat CoP missions as those are really REALLY challenging despite you being able to do them at lvl 30 for the first mission(they are considered things for higher end lvled ppl to do because of challenge).

[Sarkis]

You totally lie(not in a bad way XD) when you say FFXI has a bad story. What rank are you? Did you start Zilart and CoP missions? They are totally baddass. The story is deep, you have to persue it among other things and fight with it in your party. You obviously havent went deep enough. FFXI's only real departure is that you arent the main main character anymore, and you share a world with many other people and instead of controlling a party, you control yourself as a single unit in the group and depend on one another for survival. It is still very FFish IMO even though many things adapted to an MMORPG style.

Missions1-9 are introduction. You learn about the world around you and the main characters in the game. Memorable characters that have personality.

Missions afterward are about the nation's darker side and its surrounding areas. Zilart is about the beginning with the Zilart vs the Kuluu and how the Crags and other things came to place. The cutscene for ZM4 is fantastic and totally amazing. The story is definitetly there. CoP is even better however i have yet to touch a promyvion, but from what i seen its hard and its really really great. You need to progress far enough to see it though and from what i see you havent.

BTW what makes things FF anyway? O_o All this talk about new FFs not being FFs..what makes them FF anyway hm?

And to the comment about SE making crappy AI..try taking this boss in FFXI's CoP mission; Heres the tatic:

Omega & Ultima Weapons BC(burning circle aka boss) battle.
This battle take place on an airship with massive airfleet escorting you. the site itself was jaw dropping enough.(also known as the airship armada)

= 1st stage : 5 x Mammet-22 Zeta
They have around 3k HP, as strong as the ones at A01's BC. can't be slept or gravitied. (so therefore you cant sleep the monster to rest or you cant make it walk slower[gravity] to kite around the field)

PLD(Paladin) has to hold 4 of them at once(holding hate is a dynamic system..wont go into it here but its not easy) while rangers kill them off one by one. These monsters will keep changing their jobs which makes their abilities unpredictable. 2hours(limit breaks that can be only used once every two real life hours...they are very powerful but bosses can easily use them over and over) and potions must be preserve at this stage and shouldn't be used.

-= 2nd stage : 1x Omega Weapon.
Can be slowed, paralysed and Bound.

First half it will play defensive. Just like FF5, it can stone you and drain all your status. Second half it will do massive AoE(Area of Effect, in other words hits multiple targets or your entire party) lasers and high damage single target missiles.
Potions still shouldn't be used at this stage.

= Stage 3 : 1x Ultima Weapon
Can be gravitied and bound

The first half it doesn't do much. It has defense up ability, some weak AoE attacks and similar to Omega it can stone a single target. Upon reaching the second half, it will activates it's offensive mode and will be using AoE 800+ damage and single attacks. This is where everyone need to keep their pots and abilities for.

The fun part if that this BC only has time limits of 45 minutes for ALL 3 stages. Which mean you shouldn't spend more than 10 minutes on stage 1 and 2 each to have enough time for Ultima Weapon.
It's fun ;D

The money to prep this battle is enough to make you feel challenge. You guys really need to play more into the game...i hope to be able to take down end-game things to gain the skill to beat CoP missions as those are really REALLY challenging despite you being able to do them at lvl 30 for the first mission(they are considered things for higher end lvled ppl to do because of challenge).

I can see your point about ffXI And no im only about half way into rank 5 Since you need to be nearly max level to get to rank 9. I do hope what you say is true but when i said it had a bad story i ment im comparasin to other final fantasy games. FFXI realy isnt BAD story wise I only ment that becouse it's a MMORPG it's story is a little weaker then the other games. THis is becouse like you said your not the main charicter so events arnt as focused around you.

As to what makes a FF game "Feel" like a FF game thats realy complacated but i'll try my best. ^^

Aside from the great "old School" feel to the origenal games they developed a standerd of story and of fighting that was at the top of the RPG world, at lest here in amarica. THey created a Style that meny fans fell in love with. IMO the recent games have lost not only that oldschool feeling but much of what defind them as final fantasy. What makes a final fantasy a final fantasy is hard to say it's much like trying to discrib old school. it's a feeling in the way you play the game. It's the way the story plays out, it's the Final boss, it's the towns and the style the game is done in. FFXI's story and in some ways FF8's story were to simple IMO. ALlthough FF8's story gets alot more complex later on FF10 lacks plot twists it's all about Yuna and her jerny. Granted Some plot twists are in there for spice but nothing to profound. IM not hateing on 10 by the way im only useing it as an example since so far it's the farthist from what I at lest think of as final fantasy. I floundering about here Discribing this is hard it's more of a feeling like how a sword thats right for you just feels right. Or how a story just seems to fit and as it plays out you get this feeling that you love that makes you want to stay up all night reading. Simply put Final fantsy is pure Magic when it has that Somthing great about it. and sadly the last few havent had it.

[Lionx]

FFXI's story is not simple O_o...well its not as superly deep as offline FFs but its pretty deep and can surprise you a bit once you get into it.

Well the closest i can remember is FFIX being oldschool, and it was a 1/2 hate and love between those that played it...some people dont want that old FF feel...some people want it back...who are they going to please? For me, i just feel innovation is the way to make things new and fresh. I dont see whats wrong with FFXII really...mandragoras <3

[OptimusPrime]

the type of play that Final Fantasy XII is building up seems to be the similar to that of the greatest Squaresoft creation to date, Secret Of Mana, no random battles, AI characters etc. So how can anyone complain at all, i just hope that the AI characters dont get stuck all the time like in Secret of Mana when turning a corner. Those were the days.

[liamo]

i reckon that if it stays the same then it will be stuck in a rut people always want new things so thats square is giving them like when X had a more japanese feel to it than the previous ones which had up to six had with a sort of european feel to it while VII had an anime feel to it VIII was the same then it went to the eurpean fantasy feel again then japanese haven't played XI so i don't know what the feels like. i really do think that XII will be good on no basis at all except that its an rpg series that has survived this long so thats worth my time

[lordblazer]

lol man I rmemebr when I was 8 and I beat 7 and now look 12 lol.MAn this will either be a new era of the FF series or th ebiggest bust inthe FF series.