Senators imply that draft is a certainty

[Teek]

You goto jail if oyu don't sign up for selective services.Its all because of WW1 why did europe have to screw around and goto war?Now USA got selective services.

Yeah, I signed up for it.

The fact is, just because I do what I am ordered, does not mean I sanction it. Although I'm talking about dodging the draft, I'm not sure if I would or not. Politically and certainly loudly, I'd denounce the war and it's reasonings. But, there's no use in futile martyrdom. These kind of battles need to be fought politcally (ideaologically), not by civil disobiedence.

Then again, if the draft is instated and I am drafted, I'll let you know.

[Raistlin]

You goto jail if oyu don't sign up for selective services.Its all because of WW1 why did europe have to screw around and goto war?Now USA got selective services.

xD

I'm not leaving, because I haven't seen yet seen a country that's so much better at guaranteeing invididual rights that it would be worth moving(plus, I'm definitely finishing college and grad school here). The US is still at/very near the top of the list where that's concerned. But in 15 or 20 years? Who knows. If things continue along these lines, then I might move.

[Cloud No.9]

hee hee. what a little mess you americans have got yourself into. you see where apathy and believing what you are told gets you? tut tut tut.

if only you had voted more. if only you had demonstrated harder. but nope. you were warned it would be the next vietnam. the iraqi propaganda minister who you all laughed at told you they would draw you in then destroy you. but did you listen. no. you would rather belive bush, cheeney and powell. and now they went to send you off to war to die for believing them. isn't that a kick in the head?

iraq has done hee haw for american freedom and liberty.

but maybe cloudsquallandzidan is right. maybe george orwell had a great point after all and predicted the future. freedom is slavery.

[Teek]

freedom is slavery.

I love George Orwell. As I recall, that's the villian's statement. Besides denying the basic Law of Identity, it is also completely contradictory. Freedom is not slavery.

Really, I knew some Europeans were out to destroy freedom, but this is just ridiculous.

[The Man]

It's one of the three Party slogans, along with "Ignorance is strength" and "War is peace." So yeah, I suppose it'd qualify as the villain's statement.

[Teek]

It's one of the three Party slogans, along with "Ignorance is strength" and "War is peace." So yeah, I suppose it'd qualify as the villain's statement.

I find it ironic that he (and everyone like him) denounces America yet again, not for its weaknesses but for its strengths. This is one of the most explicit forms I've actually read, though. He's quoting from a fictitious totalitarian regime, slinging its slogans which obviously represent an immoral, pretty ridiculous creed ("war is peace"? give me a break). Can we get any more obvious than that? If the rest of the world wants to know why a lot of Americans tend to see their country as the center of the universe, it's because, despite what Europe's intellectual bastion will tell you, most people want to be free, and when you begin to claim that ignorance, war, and slavery are virtues, people either run or give up.

[lordblazer]

hee hee. what a little mess you americans have got yourself into. you see where apathy and believing what you are told gets you? tut tut tut.

if only you had voted more. if only you had demonstrated harder. but nope. you were warned it would be the next vietnam. the iraqi propaganda minister who you all laughed at told you they would draw you in then destroy you. but did you listen. no. you would rather belive bush, cheeney and powell. and now they went to send you off to war to die for believing them. isn't that a kick in the head?

iraq has done hee haw for american freedom and liberty.

but maybe cloudsquallandzidan is right. maybe george orwell had a great point after all and predicted the future. freedom is slavery.

F your damn opinions blam the ones who voted for bush.and plus i can't smurfing vote I'm 17 not 18 i was 16 when the election wen ton i can't freaking register to vote when I'm 16.Thats hte hwole freaking problem i have byt he time the draft happens I'll be 18 and there was nothing I could have done about it because i wasn't a freaking legal adult to register to vote and try to make a difference.

[The Man]

It's one of the three Party slogans, along with "Ignorance is strength" and "War is peace." So yeah, I suppose it'd qualify as the villain's statement.

I find it ironic that he (and everyone like him) denounces America yet again, not for its weaknesses but for its strengths. This is one of the most explicit forms I've actually read, though. He's quoting from a fictitious totalitarian regime, slinging its slogans which obviously represent an immoral, pretty ridiculous creed ("war is peace"? give me a break). Can we get any more obvious than that? If the rest of the world wants to know why a lot of Americans tend to see their country as the center of the universe, it's because, despite what Europe's intellectual bastion will tell you, most people want to be free, and when you begin to claim that ignorance, war, and slavery are virtues, people either run or give up.

I think he's denouncing America for its weakness and hypocrisy. Read his post again.

I agree that America has its strengths, but right now its weaknesses are also showing. So I can't disagree with his post 100%.

[lordblazer]

I mean man it sucks thoughand when I say they US army is having a problem with ment hey say no they aren't its doing good.I get mad at that statement because they just feel they wanna be right(forum posters).Now anytime the army calls most of its troops in the reserves tell me is there a shortage of active duty soldiers?Yes.....pretty soon a draft will happen and htis just pisses me off because i could never do about it.

[Teek]

All right. This is what I gleaned from his post.

- Americans are apathetic and mindless, and accept the "brainwashing" that we are given eagerly.

I can't speak for Americans as a whole. That's a very collectivist notion, as it's basically denouncing an individual in a country and saying the "masses" are apathetic and mindless. But, in my situation, I'd say I'm hardly apathetic (that I am arguing with his poor argument is justification at that). I am not apathetic when it comes to America or the rest of the world. As for being mindless, or that I am "brainwashed" (!) I don't know what he thinks American schools are like. But trust me - we aren't given propaganda.

- We did not vote or demonstrate enough. We were warned (by whom?) that Iraq would be the next Vietnam. The "Iraqi Propganda Minister" (who is he?) we laughed at, and we eagerly went along with Bush. We were screwed.

First off, by whom were we warned? Who is the Iraqi Propganda Minister? Second, there is a large group who are against Bush and his administration, and hardly anybody wants a war in Iraq. Also, once again ignoring that he still sees all American individuals everywhere as a collective mass, we did not collective laugh at some unknown being and collectively praised Bush.

- Iraq does not stand for American freedom and liberty

Very true. What's his point?

- CloudSquallandZidane was right. Freedom is slavery.

First off, CloudSquallandZidane is never right.

Second, freedom is not slavery. For more on my insights on this subject, read my previous post.

Fail.

[The Man]

Ehh. I was under the impression that by saying Iraq doesn't stand for American liberties, he meant the war, and that by the Orwell quote he was denouncing the fact that a number of America's civil liberties have come under fire because of the Iraq war and 9/11. But whatever, I shouldn't presume to speak for other forum members.

[lordblazer]

saying freedom is slavery then pretty much my ancestors were free when they were slaves working for the brits and americans and any other european super power that had slavery.

YEah saying that statement is a insult to me.


anyway Cloud No.9 when bush was first elected he pretty muchs tole the dman election because he had less electorial votes and somewhat gained florida after it was declared that gore had it and the bias supreme cort bush bush in office.Its always americans fault with you europeans you know what F you I mean crap large groups of peopel tried I mean they tried there butts offf.WE did everything yeah it wasn't enough due to the fact that the whit ehouse is freaking corrupt.Republican has complete control of everything so pretty much yeah they can do whatever they want and risk civil disorder.The hwole thing Bush is doing is jsut getting him and his pals rich nothing more and nothing less he doesn't care for america as you can tell since he is doing whatever the heck he wants the thats the problem.Now we americans are always told to stay out of european political threads I wonder why you dont stay the smurf out of our political threads I mean crap you may know em but oyu never know we may know some of your country's politics.

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

I do not believe that another draft is going to happen, it would be tatamount to political suicide and the American people would not stand for it.

And with regards to Cloud 9's little post about how we're screwed because we did or did not do this or that, I would have to ask that before he makes judgements he get his facts.

There were protests. Many protests. There were votes. Many, many votes. Protesting just doesn't do anything. I live in Seattle. I lived through the WTO riots. What do you think the protesting did? Nothing. What did the rioting and looting do? Call for a suspension of our freedom of speech in certain areas and delayed things because conditions were unsafe. Judge for yourself which was more effective.

Americans made their choice. For good or for ill they made their choice which is the ultimate expression of democracy. Sure there are those who chose for the wrong reasons, but really, Kerry wasn't the most vigorous or impressive candidate. I think he was one of the worst choices possible. But he was picked. And we live with the consequences. It's not that Americans don't do things, it's that they don't necessarily succeed.

[lordblazer]

Pretty much its the fact that americans are told to stay out of british threads and stay out of aussie threads but when we make one you other guys come ina nd say crap like oyu know everything.Then you say it in a manner to insult us/.In your thread topics and in you rpost in our threads on our politics.I mean wtf cloud who do you think you are?What does protesting accomplishes?What does you saying its our damn fault accomplishes?How is it my fault cloud?

[Cloud No.9]

the freedom is slavery thing explained. it was a retort to cloudsquallandzidane saying that people need to draft to protect freedom. and other's saying that enforcing it would breach the ammendment on slavery. so to protect your freedom you need to be enslaved. that's where the freedom is slavery came from. that was all. i will post later on the rest.