The most important (and maybe the last) theory of mine.

[Sir Bahamut]

But if you remember well TC still holds after Ulti passed her powers to Edea and died.

Well, let's put it this way:

The spell is broken the moment Ultimecia dies(possibly even after you defeat her in battle), but since it takes time for the line of time to revert back to a normal, uncompressed state, it hangs around for a while even after Ultimecia is dead.

And how do you know time compression finished?.
If TC was WOTC you would never know.WOTC is subtile.

I know time compression never finished because as said many times, it is repeatedly stated that ONLY Ultimecia can live inside time compression. It is mentioned first by Edea(who read Ultimecias mind when possessed) and later on by Rinoa(who did the same thing). They are clearly not lying, and there are no reasons not to believe them, so the conclusion is inevitable: TC never finished.

[Faith Chama]

Y'all must differentiate between the outcome of Ellone's spcial ability,
Junction Machine Ellone and Ultimecia's time compression.

[Sir Bahamut]

Excuse me? Exactly when have the two been confused so far? In fact, the only one who's mentioned Ellones powers so far seems to be yourself =P

[Faith Chama]

That's when someone has concluded thet the world of FF8 was already compressed since the time Laguna went to Winhill up to the time Adel was defeated by Squall.

[Future Esthar]

It´s irrelevant if she finish it or not.
I will show you it will go forever. Even if the magic stops.
Look at the diagram.This time I change the axis of the table.

0 10 20 30 300 (time which passes in TC)


1000 1010 1020 1030 1300
.
.
1300 1310 1320 1330 1600

The compression is read from top to button.

The TC magic lasts for 300 years in this example..

Looking at the first line we see an era that evolves from 1000 to 1300.
However a paradox appears.
There are at least two states of 1300.
One that get´s compressed with later eras till 1600.
And one that get´s compressed to previous eras since 1000.
Behind that there is an infinitude of other states.
This is a paradox because the states were different .

In FF8 TC is supposed to be relative to a unique state of destiny.
So I show it´s impossible to have a FINITE range of times.
Interestingly enough I thought on this theory at this post.I wasn´t expecting it at all.
A secondary interesting side theory.
The demonstration is as simple as to say that an infinite interval remains the same when you add the same number(not zero) to it´s extremes.
However this is not possible with finite intervals.
Knowing this, when you evolve from a time A at the beggining of TC to a time A+300 (the end) it´s like you are teleporting back to the beggining of it at time A+300.Since the line is infinite this will go forever.Also,in an infinite line the compression looks the same at all TC times.

[Sir Bahamut]

Still dont see where anyone's confusing TC effects with Ellones power though...

[Future Esthar]

Nor me.

[Sir Bahamut]

Above post was in response to Faith Charma.

In response to Future Esthar:

You are always talking about events evolving within TC, but don't you see how illogical that is? Events that are compressed don't evolve; the events that evolve from them are either also trapped inside TC or about to become trapped inside TC.

You see, TC is compressing an already completed line of time. In other words, the line of time in FF8 is static, and set in stone, instead of dynamic, and evolving with time. We know this because firstly, Ellone tells us that you can't alter the line of time in any way, and secondly, FF8 is a world ruled by fate(there is only one possible, 'preordained' outcome to any given event).

Granted, if we first make the unfounded and hardly plausible assumption that time is dynamic and constantly evolving, then your theory of events evolving inside TC would hold(but of course be no more than simply a theory). However, even if this were the case there wouldn't be two of any event, such as the year 1300 in your case, and thus no paradox. The year 1300 would 'occur' after 300 years, sure, but at no other time. If you're suggesting it also comes from the year 1600, that would be a fallacy, because time cannot both expand in the forward direction AND the backwards direction at the same time.

Regardless, since there is no paradox, there is no 'proof' that you can't compress a finite amount of Time. But really, despite the fact that I'm sure you can come up with any range of theories that would contradict TC only being partially completed, none of them would be valid, because you're ignoring what the game tells us and making up your own truths.

[Future Esthar]

You are always talking about events evolving within TC, but don't you see how illogical that is? Events that are compressed don't evolve; the events that evolve from them are either also trapped inside TC or about to become trapped inside TC.

That´s what I have been telling.My tables weren´t wrong.

FF8 is a world ruled by fate(there is only one possible, 'preordained' outcome to any given event).

That´s what I mean by "In FF8 TC is supposed to be relative to a unique state of destiny." Because a compression of its world would produce only one state.
This is true.And to me it´s obvious that time evolves inside TC.Since the evolution of an era is caught on TC we need to have an infinite line to avoid the existence of multiple states.You had to prove to me yet that time didn´t evolve in TC

And since the line is infinite the shape of the compression remains the same seen from the referencial of a certain FIXED era.It didn´t depend on the time passed.
If one is inside time compression one would not even note when the spell finishes.It would go forever (the line is infinite).

[Faith Chama]

I have a question to Future Esthar about the notes in post #1
so bear whith me:

I-Ultimecia needs to go further in the past to make time compression.
II-She needs Ellone to do that.

Yes.

III-Obviously she is going to an era before Adel kidnaps Ellone(era A).

yeah, the past.

IV-People were supposed to feel TC when Adel is defeated by Squall and the others (era B).

yep, the present.

Conclusion:
If the previous affirmations were thruth the following is also thruth:
(1)Ulti wanna to compress a range of eras which include era A and era B.

Here comes my question:
what if Ultimecia -after being sent to the past by Ellone- chooses to compress the present time of the 17 years old Squall (era B)
and
the future where she came from (era F).
She might have decided to do that because it's fun for her to watch the chaos from way back in the past.
then after that, she goes to her castle to kill the white SeeDs of the future. And then, she waits in her throne room to get her @$$ kicked by the first generation of SeeDs...Squall and his friends.

[Christmas]

[QUOTE=Unknowns]

I will try to put it simple.

I-Ultimecia needs to go further in the past to make time compression.
II-She needs Ellone to do that.
III-Obviously she is going to an era before Adel kidnaps Ellone(era A).
IV-People were supposed to feel TC when Adel is defeated by Squall and the others(era B).
Conclusion:
If the previous affirmations were thruth the following is also thruth:
(1)Ulti wanna to compress a range of eras which include era A and era B.

(2)Now let´s suppose Tc is progressive.
(3)Let´say she is starting to compress time and time can pass more or less fast .
(4)Obviously it will pass equally on all eras.

So the compression can be ilustrated as next:

0 ............A.....................B............
t1 .............A.........B...........
t2 ............AB...........
t TC

At instant t time is completely compressed.
If we measure the time at era A and B in the beggining of TC we get the values a and b respectively.
At instant t the values will be a+t and b+t.
At instant t1 ,a+t1 and b+t1.
etc...

If we consider the subinterval [a,b] at instant 0 it will evolve to [a+t,b+t] at t(which is the time it takes for TC to complete).

In the game t is only a few hours (time to reach Ulti´s Castle +time to fight her + little time time left) which is much more little than 17 years.
So time is fully compressed at the range [a+t,b+t].
But I ask you.If two eras were compressed it means TC happened in both.Not just in one of them.
So we conclude that the world of FF8 was already compressed.At least since the time Laguna went to Winhill up to the time Adel was defeated by Squall.
Ultimecia says only she can live in TC.
But she is a villain and villains tell lies.
If she is saying the thruth then she lies when she says she can compress time in the conditions I to IV.
Both affirmations cannot be thruth.Either one is thruth or the other.Not both.
If the world of ff8 is time compressed why it look too normal?
Because TIME COMPRESSION IS NOT CONTINUOUS.IT IS DISCREET(i.e SHE ONLY COMPRESSED A FINITE QUANTITATIVE NUMBER OF ERAS) and distributed over space.This helps to understand why they can survive on it.

So THE WORLD OF FF8 IS ALREADY TIME COMPRESSED.TIME COMPRESSION IS DISCREET AND DISTRIBUTED OVER SPACE.
I call this form of tc WELL ORGANIZED TIME COMPRESSION (WOTC).

After reading this theory..or theories?...I understand why ppl like FF1...It is classic and most of all..SIMPLE..(with the exception of the 2000 year time loop....)

My FF8 Anaylsis

Villian want power and came up with a wicked plot.
The wicked plot is Time compression.
Time compression will cause serious damage to everything.
Good guys came and kick villian's ass.
Time compression is put to an end and ppl live happily ever after.

THE END

[Sir Bahamut]

That´s what I have been telling.My tables weren´t wrong.

That's not what you've been telling. I was explaining why it doesn't make sense for events to evolve within TC, which is what you were using in your tables to begin with.

.Since the evolution of an era is caught on TC we need to have an infinite line to avoid the existence of multiple states.

An infinite line of time or an infinite TC line? Don't quite follow this...

You had to prove to me yet that time didn´t evolve in TC

We agree about fate and about not being able to alter the line of time(hereby abbreviated LOT), right? That's what you said just now in any case. Now, we also know that time travelling is possible. From this we can conclude that the LOT in FF8 is completely set in stone. In other words, even as we play the game, Ultimecias time exists in the same way(this is why she can come back to the past without us seeing her birth yet). So we have our line of time:

<----------------------------------------->

Now let's label three events on the line of time as A, B and C. B is the immediate event after A and C is the immediate event after B. In other words, if we started viewing the LOT from the point A, we'd see first A, then B and then C. Now imagine A and B are compressed into AB. The event B wouldn't evolve into event C in this compressed state, because it already HAS evolved to the event C. In fact, the LOT started off with all evolution of eras complet(if this were not the case, the LOT could be altered by timetravelling, which is in conflict with what we started off assuming).

Now, I can't literally prove this. However, what I can say is that while your take on things is in direct conflict with several things we are told in the game, my take on things is based entirely on what the game tells us. Since a theory based on FF8 should obviously be based on what the game tells us, your theory is by nature less valid. I mean, I could make up a theory that was completely unrelated to what the game tells us, but that wouldn't in any way make it plausible....

And since the line is infinite the shape of the compression remains the same seen from the referencial of a certain FIXED era.It didn´t depend on the time passed.
If one is inside time compression one would not even note when the spell finishes.It would go forever (the line is infinite).

Why are you assuming that the LOT is infinite? That is an assumption which isn't backed up by the game. Granted, since we aren't told if the line is finite either, it would be best to make theories which aren't dependant on either as being a fact.

[Future Esthar]

Resume of the discussion:

H)-World of FF8 is a world of fate so either:

a)-Time is set in stone and the time range can be finite or infinite .
or
b)-Time moves inside TC which means the range must be infinite.

Both a and b can be valid with H.

You believe in a, i believe in b.

But the game didn´t tells us if the range is finite or infinite.

And if it is infinite both conclusions are possible.

However you seems to misunderstanding what TC is.
You think TC is like a film in which we break all the clips(frames) and superimpose them.
That way the film can´t road because the frames weren´t side by side.

That way not even Ulti can live in TC without stopping because magic can violate the laws of physics but not the laws of logic,mathematics or topology.


You can´t say "I will perfform a magic in which I will be inside USA and outside USA at the same time without creating a duplicate of myself.Even knowing this is impossible(defies laws of logic) it will just work for me and not for you because I am very powerful,much more than you." No.

So there is not any advantage for her since she would become a Tcompressed statue.Didn´t she realize this? Even if she add some "death" properties to the full Time Compression ( and have her death status defense at the maximum value).

People don´t die in full time compression.They become a time compressed statue (since time don´t evolve inside TC)

The only possibility is that time can evolve inside TC and thus the range is infinite.(And so Ulti can live there with Squall and the others even knowing they were in a crazy world.

And I don´t understand you.You first say people can´t feel TC before it is full completed.And then you say they can.Confused.

[Sir Bahamut]

You believe in a, i believe in b.

Fair enough. I merely don't think there is any reasoning behind your conclusion that TC actually ever finished.

As for me misunderstanding TC, no I am not misunderstadning TC. Well, TC isn't a well defined concept to begin with, but the analogy I presented is likely to be a good enough picture. The reason only Ultimecia can live is because she obviously seperated her personal line of time from the universal line of time that was to be compressed. That way she'd be able to live on happily ever after while the rest of time are stuck in TC. In this way, logic, mathematics or topology are not violated by Ultimecia creating some sort of duplicate as you think I was suggesting.

Moving on, I never said anyone dies though, so I don't know where that's from. I'd agree that a good picture might be 'statues froze in time'.

By the way, you start off your post saying you believe time evolves within TC, but you end it by saying time DOESN'T evolve in TC. =P
Such behaviour would defy logic, as you can't both believe something and disbelieve it at once

And I don´t understand you.You first say people can´t feel TC before it is full completed.And then you say they can.Confused.

You must have misread something. The only time we ever see the effects of TC are at Adels defeat and in Ultimecias battle. Explaining why we see effects here, but not in any events prior to Adels defeat or before the battle with Ultimecia(ie. when you're running around in the castle) is tricky, and could have many possible answers. But what we can definitely conclude is that:

* TC effects are not fealt in all events that are compressed, at least not while the spell is unfinished.

In other words, the events prior to Adels defeat might start seeing effects if TC were allowed to finish it's job, but we'll never know, scine it never does. I guess I should have made that clearer.

[Future Esthar]

I just said that if time don´t evolve in TC then people will become a compressed statue at the end.(don´t have two opposite opinions at the same time).

In other words, the events prior to Adels defeat might start seeing effects if TC were allowed to finish it's job, but we'll never know, scine it never does. I guess I should have made that clearer.

That didn´t makes sense at all.
Why would people just feel TC during that scene when time is not full compressed and then feel it at all times when TC is finished.

Following that logic TC could start to be felt at any time and then get back to normal when Ulti is defeated(And feel it all times if TC reaches completion).

You know,if TC can be feel before TC is completed then for symetrical reasons it should be felt at all times in the range.

To say that TC begins to be feeled at an instant and then at all times is to say that there is a time decompression,not a compression.

You can´t confuse the dimension of the time evolving in TC with the dimension of time flowing in FF8.They were different.
You can´t say "One day A Ulti decided to compress time,it lasts 1 day but was not completed at all.The range was between h<A and f>A and f-A>1 day.
And then since it didn´t complete the efect is only feeled in the range [A,A+1].
That is confusing the normal flow of time with the time passing inside TC.

The reason only Ultimecia can live is because she obviously seperated her personal line of time from the universal line of time that was to be compressed. That way she'd be able to live on happily ever after while the rest of time are stuck in TC.

What´s the advantage of living in a little "bubble" of time not compressed and rule over a complete crazy freezed world?
By the way,the only way to rule the world was to send her consciousness into the TCssed layer but then she would be inside a frozen person.
Strange thing to do for entertainment.