about the origin of ultimecia (big big spoiler)

[sparkie]

Then we see all the sorceresses from the Centra dinasty in reverse chronological order.
Rinoa->Quistis->Selphie->Edea = Ulti.

The hair genetics certainly dun apply here.

Don't you remember me explaining how it is an impossibility for any main character to be a child of Rinoa? *sigh* If you're going to tear this game apart looking for evidence of your theories, then I shall do the same to prove my views.

Okay, let me show you AGAIN.

I'm not going to touch anything on the hair genetics as I am not as familiar with it verses eye color traits.

Rinoa = B,B (Dark brown on the verge of black)
Squall = b,b (Blue)
Child = B,b; B,b; B,b; B,b (A moderate, light brown)

Brown (B) is the dominant trait over blue (b). Any possible combination of genes from Rinoa and Squall (or any other male for that matter) would result in the offspring having at least one Brown gene and thus, a shade of brown eyes. None of the main characters have brown eyes.

The reverse also holds true. Rinoa can not be the offspring of any of the main characters. No one else has even a single Brown gene (You witnessed this yourself.) and Rinoa has two!

Also, Selphie can not be the child of Quistis and Zell as neither of them have even one Semi-dominant (U) gene. However, Seifer has a U gene, so Selphie could be the child of Edea and Seifer, but that would require you changing your theory... again.

We already covered this and you just blew it off last time.

Ok I haven't posted yet but I thought this was important since I'm apparently a genetic mutation. My mother has dark brown eyes and my dad has blue. Now, I have my father's eyes (and I mean completely, with no hint of brown). So obviously you don't have to have two dominant genes to result in dark brown eyes, which I guess would make it possible for Quistis or Selphie or whoever to be Squall and Rinoa's offspring. Wait... What am I saying?!?

Anyway, I'm not saying I believe a word of Future Esthar's theories and I don't even remember how the eye thing came up. And yes I read the entire thread.. But I still can't understand the once far-fetched and now random theories from FE. Like everyone else has said, they just aren't consistent with the game. Not with the script, not with the graphical instances. Not to mention Future's lack of consistency in his own ideas (which probably come from having wayyyy too many). Sorry dude, another tally in opposition.

And anyway, I don't see how genetics in our world would apply in the game, seeing as people can have red eyes and such... not to mention sorceress' appearance can change (look at Edea or Adel). Trying to prove this is like trying to explain how magic would work. Or time compression. Or how in the hell Squall's hair can stay like that.

But I'm wondering... Why are you guys still even trying to disprove all these inconsistent theories? Any "normal" person that reads the thread can see the bogusness of all this. I admire Unknowns for trying though. But I'm guessing at this point you guys are just doing this for fun, otherwise you'd have quit after the first page!! Unless you have some internal masochistic need to torture yourselves.

To Future Esthar (meant in the sincerest way): Do you really have nothing better to do? You're creative enough, why don't you write fiction stories? Just don't call them theories. Please.

[Christmas]

Fine. Fair enough.But I guess if u have sibilings, they aren't like this right?

Let's just say you are a rare case like I say earlier,"little possiblity". maybe 1 out of 1000 or 1 out of...whatever.

Let just say that Rinoa + Squall = Quisitis fits due to rare case.
Then Quistis + Zell = Selphie won't fit since how much time such thing can happen all the time?

And I am talking about hair genetics here.

It is not like you get to see meteorshower everyday in your country right?

EDIT:Sorry, I missed out some part:

Ok I haven't posted yet but I thought this was important since I'm apparently a genetic mutation. My mother has dark brown eyes and my dad has blue. Now, I have my father's eyes

You have your father's eye so what's wrong? It is not like your eyes are green which is completely different from your parents?

And anyway, I don't see how genetics in our world would apply in the game, seeing as people can have red eyes and such... not to mention sorceress' appearance can change (look at Edea or Adel).

Their appearance changed due to practice of black magic and some of their body parts deformed as stated by Squall of SeeD from some guide. But this doesn't mean the genes change along and even so, the human dudes in the game certainly can't change like sorceressm right?

[sparkie]

Xaven was saying if there were two dominant genes (BB - brown) from one parent and two recessive (bb - blue) from another, it would be certain that the child would have brown eyes. Unless Rinoa has Bb which would make it possible to have a blue-eyed child, right? Oh and I don't have any siblings. Damn.

But we agree on the fact that hair genetics (and eye genetics as far as I'm concerned) don't apply here, right?

[sparkie]

And anyway, I don't see how genetics in our world would apply in the game, seeing as people can have red eyes and such... not to mention sorceress' appearance can change (look at Edea or Adel).

Their appearance changed due to practice of black magic and some of their body parts deformed as stated by Squall of SeeD from some guide. But this doesn't mean the genes change along and even so, the human dudes in the game certainly can't change like sorceressm right?

Yeah I suppose it wouldn't change their genes, no, but there is magic like I said (although we don't know whether it can be used to change appearance). Anyway, why does this eye thing even matter? We already know Squall and Rinoa didn't have any love child to be turned into Ultimecia. :rolleyes2

[Christmas]

Xaven was saying if there were two dominant genes (BB - brown) from one parent and two recessive (bb - blue) from another, it would be certain that the child would have brown eyes. Unless Rinoa has Bb which would make it possible to have a blue-eyed child, right? Oh and I don't have any siblings. Damn.

What I am saying is since Zell and Quistis dun have green eyes and have eyes pretty far from green, how can they have a child like Selphie who have green eyes, isn't it?

But we agree on the fact that hair genetics (and eye genetics as far as I'm concerned) don't apply here, right?

So do you agree as I really highlighted really big, the random sorceress you fought during time compression look anywhere like Rinoa, Selphie and Quistis?

[Future Esthar]

People debating with me are doing well.
People who don´t debate just keeps saying it hasn´t consistent but don´t even try to argue their point.No one is in position of saying the theories were wrong without arguing why.A theory is right until someone proof it wrong.I don´t know why you say they were wrong.You have to tell me why.

[sparkie]

Xaven was saying if there were two dominant genes (BB - brown) from one parent and two recessive (bb - blue) from another, it would be certain that the child would have brown eyes. Unless Rinoa has Bb which would make it possible to have a blue-eyed child, right? Oh and I don't have any siblings. Damn.

What I am saying is since Zell and Quistis dun have green eyes and have eyes pretty far from green, how can they have a child like Selphie who have green eyes, isn't it?

All I'm saying is that it's probably possible but not likely. I don't know enough about genetics to decide that. And how can Selphie be their child in the first place? Besides the whole time loop thing which is really just a cop-out reason because it can't really be explained so he's using it to his advantage.

So do you agree as I really highlighted really big, the random sorceress you fought during time compression look anywhere like Rinoa, Selphie and Quistis?

Not unless colors are determine who you are, which is what Future is pretty much saying. He should play Legend of Dragoon, he'd have a blast. Hope I'm not creating another string of ridiculous theories by saying that...

[sparkie]

People debating with me are doing well.

Well, we're glad to know we're pleasing you, oh great one.

People who don´t debate just keeps saying it hasn´t consistent but don´t even try to argue their point.

Have you been absent for the past 50 replies?? I'm getting sick of this selective attention thing...

No one is in position of saying the theories were wrong without arguing why.A theory is right until someone proof it wrong.I don´t know why you say they were wrong.You have to tell me why.

Hahaha I don't think you understand how theories work. Or what a theory even is. A theory is something people try to prove, not prove wrong. That makes no sense. You are the one who came up with them, so it's your job to prove them. So according to you, we can say what we want and it'll be correct until someone proves it wrong? Ok: Squall is a chick. You can't prove it so.... wow I just altered the entire game!!!

[Future Esthar]

They must have internal consistency and fit the storyline.Mine´s do this.

The sorceresses just look a little different from them because they were transformed by magic.

[sparkie]

They must have internal consistency and fit the storyline.Mine´s do this.

Really? Hadn't noticed...

The sorceresses just look a little different from them because they were transformed by magic.

Do you know how elementary school that sounds? You are just using things from the game that we can't prove wrong to fit your story. Anyone could do the same but they like the story as it is. Why do you have to change it? These aren't "hidden truths", they're alterations. I don't understand why most other people are satisfied with the story and you aren't. Have you ever even CONSIDERED that things really are as they appear to be?

[Future Esthar]

Oops,sorry.This was a mistake.
Seifer+Edea=Zell
Zell+Quistis=Irvine (which is strange and i will explain why)
Irvine+Selphie=Squall

This is the only possibility for the eyes genetic to apply.

So instead of the second sorceress being Quistis she is Selphie who also dresses yellow clothes.

I recognize I made a mistake here.
So in reverse order we have Rinoa->Selphie->Quistis->Edea.

[Christmas]

I can't really believe you can just ignored the whole lump of "presents" I prepared for you or they are just too much for you?

And pls stop changing things here and there and just make up your mind.

[Squall of SeeD]

People debating with me are doing well.
People who don´t debate just keeps saying it hasn´t consistent but don´t even try to argue their point.No one is in position of saying the theories were wrong without arguing why.A theory is right until someone proof it wrong.I don´t know why you say they were wrong.You have to tell me why.

No, a theory is not right until proven wrong, Future. The scientific community even says as much. That's why there are very few scientific laws. Most of them are only regarded as beliefs and suppositions because not everything can be proven like gravity. An experiment can be conducted 10,001 times and if the first 10,000 all have the same result, yet the last one has a different result, the theory is wrong. That is the rule of scientific study and theorizing.

The burden of providing proof falls to one proposing a theory, not to those who attempt to discredit it. All that one has to do to prove a theory wrong is to demonstrate a single inconsistency, one point where evidence doesn't add up. Your "theories" have countless inconsistencies, not just with the story of the game itself, but with each other.

They must have internal consistency and fit the storyline.Mine´s do this.

No, that's not true. A theory must have corroborating evidence. In the event that you're unfamiliar with this term, let me explain what it is: It is tangible, verifiable evidence in support of something. Not just "Well, maybe this could have happened..." or "This might be the case..." or "After thinking about it, some more, I got to thinking 'What if...'."

We're talking about evidence that is solid, undeniable. Something like "This apple is not indestructible" can be tested and proven when someone bashes it repeatedly with a plank of wood. The tangible evidence that the apple is not indestructible is its splattered remains.

Internal consisentcy doesn't amount to a hill of [img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img] if the venue into which the theory will be applied is not compatible. It has to fit what the pre-existing material without contradicting it. Your theories are contradicted by the pre-existing material and are, thus, immediately proven false. Julia is not Edea because she is dead. How do we know this? Because the pre-existing material says so. Julia is not Ultimecia. Why? Because she is dead. Edea is not Ultimecia. Why? Because Edea isn't even a Witch by the game's end and Ultimecia lives hundreds of years into the future.

In order for a theory to fit something, Future, it has to seamlessly slide into place without contradicting anything that was there before. That's how a theory works. You don't understand what a theory is, Future. You really don't. You think a theory is something that you make up to change the way things are. That's not what they are. Theories are to explain what already is. They are used to explain pre-existing material, not to alter it; if they in any way alter or contradict the pre-existing material, they are not serving their purpose and are not theories.

You have no evidence for any of your theories. All you have is your imagination, and there's nothing wrong with having an active imagination at all. However, you're applying it wrong. You're applying your imaingation, not to the purpose of theorizing, not to the end of explaining anything, but to the end of changing a pre-existing story and contradicting what is already fact. You are not Kazushige Nojima. You are not Tetsuya Nomura. You are not Yoshinori Kitase. You have no basis or authority to argue that anything in the story is not what is. A theory would be trying to explain why what is in the story is what it is, not changing what is.

For an example of what a theory is, read this:

"I believe that Squall and the others were able to continue fighting against Ultimecia even while the universe around them was compressed and being absorbed because they were focusing on one another. We find support for this in Laguna telling the others that when Time Compression began, they would need to focus on each other, their friendship and need for each other, and imagine being together someplace. He said that if they did this, they would be able to travel toward Ultimecia's era by focusing on being there with one another:

"Ultimecia lives far in the future where none of us can technically exist."
"There's only one way to make yourself exist in a world like that!"
"As friends, don't forget one another! As friends, believe in one another!"
"Believe in your friends' existence! And they'll also believe in yours."
"To be friends, to like one another, and to love one another..."
"You can't do these things alone. You need somebody."
"Right, guys?"
"What place reminds you of your friends?"
"Imagine being in that place with all your friends."
"Once time compression begins, think of that place and try to get there!
That's all!"
"That place will welcome you. You'll be able to get there no matter what period you're in!"
"You need love and friendship for this mission! And the courage to believe it."
"It's all about love, friendship, and courage!"

They do as Laguna has instructed and focus on their love for each other and their need for each other, and on being at Edea's place together in Ultimecia's era. They then arrive there.

They continue to focus on one another while they are there and are, thus, able to remain even while everything around them is compressed and absorbed into Ultimecia.

For further evidence of this, note that when one of them falls in battle, if not quickly resuscitated, they will be absorbed into time. This is because the link between them is broken. While their friends are still continuing to focus on them, they are no longer reciprocating that and the bond that holds them outside of Time Compression is undone and they are absorbed."


That is a theory, Future. It in no way contradicts what was previously there. It works off of what was previously there to explain why something else about what is there is the way it is, and the evidence supports the conclusion.


This is an example of changing what is already there with something that's not a theory at all, and which is immediately contradicted by what is there, thus, proving the new concept false:

Linkage.


Do you understand now? Your "theories" are not theories at all. Theories are supposed to explain things about why the world -- or in this case, Final Fantasy VIII's story -- are the way they are by working off of what we know to be true, not by changing what is true. When you start doing that, your theory is no longer even explaining anything about why the world -- or the story -- is the way it is. It's just making up bull[img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img] that is absolutely irrelevant, is not verifiable in any manner, and could not possibly be true because it contradicts pre-existing facts.

You seem to think that pre-existing facts will change to accomodate your "theories." That's not how things work. Theories are supposed to explain why pre-existing facts are what they are. Theories have to change to accomodate these explanations, and they must remain within the realm of what is pre-existing fact. Your "theories" do not do this, and, thus, they are not theories. They are FanFiction. This stuff has belonged on the Arts & Writing Board from the very beginning, yet you don't understand this.

This Forum is not for discussing things that contradict the story. It is for discussing what is in the story. As a fellow member of this Forum, I ask you to take the time to show us the respect of recognizing what a theory really is, to stop insulting us -- and, yes, you have been, whether you thought so or not -- by saying that we are too closed-minded to see the truth, when it is you that refuses to accept what is already fact and truth. You have not made a single theory in all the time you have been here. All you have made are FanFiction tales that don't even recognize the continuity of the story they're supposed to be based on.

You expect us to read your writings and take them seriously when you don't even extend to us the respect of recognizing what a theory or what the purpose of this Forum is. Seeing as how you've forgotten, let me remind you, as one of our Moderators did last night, as you seemingly ignored him:


( A Link to his post)

By the way if we don´t see something on the game it don´t means it was not thruth.

Perhaps, but let's just stick to discussing what actually happens in the game. We realize there are inifinte possibilities to what can be, but that is not what this forum is about.

[Del Murder]

A theory is right until someone proof it wrong.I don´t know why you say they were wrong.You have to tell me why.

That's not how it goes. History has shown that you have to prove you are right before you can be taken seriously. I think this message board is a good example of that.

[Future Esthar]

For further evidence of this, note that when one of them falls in battle, if not quickly resuscitated, they will be absorbed into time. This is because the link between them is broken. While their friends are still continuing to focus on them, they are no longer reciprocating that and the bond that holds them outside of Time Compression is undone and they are absorbed."

This is proofed wrong in the end because Squall is not absorbed into time and Rinoa is able to bring him back.You can´t even proof he isn´t dead.So your theory is not a theory.

And despite my theories not being theories they fit the storyline.ALL the storyline.
You just don´t understand the context of my theories.
A keyword:Time Compression (or WOTC-Well organized time compression).
You need to understand what I said as a whole.
I NEVER SAID the characters weren´t at an orphanage.
I NEVER SAID that the characters weren´t students at a Garden.
All this were thruth but inside Time Compression.
What you have to understand the most in my theories is my theories on Time Compression.
This is what you don´t seem to understand.This will help you see how my theories can fit the story
I don´t contradict the story.I just add things.
Some of my theories happen outside Time Compression
Edea=Ulti->outside WOTC.
The orphanage gang+Edea were a dinasty ruling Centra->outside WOTC
Laguna=Vascaroon->outside WOTC
He,Kyros and Ward were guardians of the Centra castle during Ulti´s time->outside WOTC
Vascaroon fell in love with Ulti->outside WOTC
Rinoa try to find Squall at the flower field of her castle->outside WOTC
Propagators come from the moon and changed to human form.Centra civilization receives them and they become their kings.->outside WOTC
X managed to possesses the dinasty somehow.->outside WOTC
X accursed them with a fusion in which they become sorceress Y.->outside WOTC.
Our heros were scattered from their eras to an orphanage on Edea´s house.->Inside WOTC
Edea uses a pawn named Cid Kramer to make a military academy to train Seed´s->Inside WOTC
There is a country named Esthar ruled by sorceress Adel with the ingenious yet inhuman Doc Odine.->outside and inside WOTC
Edea passes her powers to Rinoa,tells there is a sorceress from the future and that she was possessed.->Inside WOTC
All the other events from the game->Inside WOTC
There were events inside WOTC that weren´t stated in the game but that I theorize.For example,the Julia is alive thing,the Deling bringing her to life thing,etc..
However these don´t contradict the game because we really don´t see Julia dying and had no reason to believe so looking at what happens on the game.What people learn in schools and through the Media don´t had to be necessarily true.