about the origin of ultimecia (big big spoiler)

[Masamune·1600]

Now that you mention it, I agree that she was addressing the party. The idea of Griever would have probably been unique to Squall, however. Griever probably wasn't "the most powerful of things" in, say, Quistis' mind, or Selphie's. You're right in saying that Ultimecia would have Drawn from the whole party; it's just that I would think the Griever template would have originated with Squall.

The dialogue Squall cited is actually the 48th post of this topic. I would have quoted it, but it takes up a lot of space.

[Sir Bahamut]

Well, the theory has barely stood it's ground for a long time now, and although it has been made quite clear over time that the game doesn't really support it, the final nail in the coffin has finally arrived, in shape of the Ultimania. This is what it has to say about sorceresses:

"SORCERESSES

Said to have existed from time immemorial to the present day, the sorceresses are women who are said to have received their powers from the old god, Hyne. There is, however, no hard evidence to support this claim. Extraordinarily powerful, many sorceresses have harboured ambitions to rule over the world – as a result, many people have come to equate the Sorceress with fear. However, there are also many Sorceresses who have chosen to live a quiet life sheltered away from civilized society; as such, the actual number of Sorceresses and the amount of power shared between them remains unknown.

The potential to become a sorceress is determined by one's capacity to wield such power – their natural affinity for magic. This factor helps to determine Sorceress candidates for when a Sorceress passes on all of her power into the next Sorceress. The giving and receiving of
power can be made between any two individuals – it not necessary for them to be related by blood. A Sorceress' lifespan is the same as a normal human's, however they cannot die until they have passed on their power to the next Sorceress."

---

Make special note that it says in the end that a sorceress has a normal lifespan. Now, it does say that a sorceress cannot die while she has her powers, but judging by Ultimecia at the orphanage, being forced to stay alive when your body is dead basically cripples you, and basically forces you to 'cough up' your powers to someone. This means that if Ultimecia were Rinoa, not only should she be an old woman, she should also be crippled by her inability to let go of her powers. These traits are clearly not present in the Ultimecia we see, so we can conclude that there is no conceivable way for Rinoa to be Ultimecia.

I'm sorry if this dissapoints believers of the theory, but this is official Square information, and it says black on white that a sorceress has a normal lifespan. Since there is no way to avoid the fact that Ultimecia lives too far into the future for a Rinoa with normal lifespan to 'become' Ultimecia, the theory is impossible.

[Christmas]

Are that other infomations like to verify Squall is Laguna's son?
The Lunar Cry in Trabia?

I think there is still some stuff I haven't brought up...

[Sir Bahamut]

I do not know. I can try and get that checked(ie. Laguna and Squall) But really, it's pretty obvious even without the Ultimania anyway.

The Lunar Cry, and I can check up on. I'll probably just post all information here as it comes. That being said, here's what it has to say on Magic:

"MAGIC

A special power that can only be used by Sorceresses. The magic that is used by human beings is referred to as para-magic. Discovered by Doctor Odine during the course of his Sorceress research, para-magic via junctioning GF is used by Balamb Garden. While it is possible to use para-magic without prior training, without equipping a GF one's power is limited physically, and cannot develop beyond normal parameters. (#) However, in order to create forces capable of fighting without having to rely on the power of the GFs during combat, Galbadia Garden has instituted areas with special anti-magic force fields similar to those used in the D-District Prison."

[Christmas]

I do not know. I can try and get that checked(ie. Laguna and Squall) But really, it's pretty obvious even without the Ultimania anyway.

Ya. but it is better to have something black and white to prove it. So someone we know here won't be able to twist things up.

Lastly, sorry to bother you that much and it will be nice if your guide can answer some of the question in this thread.

http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=68988

EDIT: I think I asked too much off-topic questions. I will stop here now.

[Gilgamesh of Legends]

Then we see all the sorceresses from the Centra dinasty in reverse chronological order.
Rinoa->Quistis->Selphie->Edea = Ulti.

The hair genetics certainly dun apply here.

Don't you remember me explaining how it is an impossibility for any main character to be a child of Rinoa? *sigh* If you're going to tear this game apart looking for evidence of your theories, then I shall do the same to prove my views.

Okay, let me show you AGAIN.

I'm not going to touch anything on the hair genetics as I am not as familiar with it verses eye color traits.

Rinoa = B,B (Dark brown on the verge of black)
Squall = b,b (Blue)
Child = B,b; B,b; B,b; B,b (A moderate, light brown)

Brown (B) is the dominant trait over blue (b). Any possible combination of genes from Rinoa and Squall (or any other male for that matter) would result in the offspring having at least one Brown gene and thus, a shade of brown eyes. None of the main characters have brown eyes.

The reverse also holds true. Rinoa can not be the offspring of any of the main characters. No one else has even a single Brown gene (You witnessed this yourself.) and Rinoa has two!

Also, Selphie can not be the child of Quistis and Zell as neither of them have even one Semi-dominant (U) gene. However, Seifer has a U gene, so Selphie could be the child of Edea and Seifer, but that would require you changing your theory... again.

We already covered this and you just blew it off last time.

And Since all of the main characters are ages 17-20. its impossible for rinoa to be their mother. And no Future Esthar no matter how much you twist things up, you can thave kids when you 3.

[G SpOtZ]

they all grew up together except for rinoa. there's no way any this whole children theory is right.

also, doing and dating old friends is a no-no. LOL.

[Kamrusepas]

in 10 years people would forget ff8 even existed... =_=

5 years at the very most

I'm doing my best to not let it be forgotten..

Hell, the dialogue was also heavily modified at certain points. Translated as it was, it was going to have an M-Rating. Obnoxious and insulting as Seifer was, he was really a lot more rude.

Aww, I really gotta get my hands on the Japanese version... And then learn Japanese...

As far as "Sorceress" supposedly more accurately conveying what was clearly meant as "Witch" -- I'm not even sure how you managed to ignore the evidence I pointed out -- there's the fact that they have the same etymological value. "Sorcerer" and "Sorceress" have the ultimate root of "Sors" in Latin, which means "Sort" in the context of "Destiny" or "Fortune." Decrees from Oracles concerning the future were called "Sorteres," meaning "Lots." It is from this that we get the concepts of casting and drawing "lots" based on fortune/luck.

With that in mind, both Sorceresses and Witches employ Magic, which stems from the word "Magus," which basically means "One who knows" or "One rich in knowledge."

Witches, Sages, Priests, Sorcerers, Viziers, and all their counterparts have the same etymological value, so I'm not sure what you were getting at here.

Well I'm a witch, and I can say I'm definitely nowhere near a Sorceress. There's a big difference.

Sometimes the most important thing isn't where the words derive from, but what they mean these days

[enigma1234]

People always debate something in FF8 like R=U, S=G, U=J, laguna= squall's father theory...
even thou there are some similarities in the characters it doesn't mean something...
squall is squall, rinoa is rinoa, ultimecia is ultimecia,etc. people are just thinking to much about this game.
Why dont we just stop our imaginations and focus on the real story of the game.

I'm just going to add this one: some people says that griever is squall's idea of a perfect GF and ultimecia uses squall's imagination about griever to make her own GF
but arent you wondering why does quistis have griever's special attack? (Shockwave Pulsar) what is quistis relation to griever?
I think shockwave pulsar is indeed quistis ultimate skill not griever's, remember the event when ultimecia said this?...

[In japanese version]
Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things [from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment you.

[or in german version]
Ultimecia: What is the absolute power for you?
The stronger your will, the bigger your pain.
Face the power!

it says that she will take something from them and there magic were taken away from them maybe in this event ultimecia got quistis shockwave pulsar ability and maybe ultimecia decided that this skill will be griever's skill...?

What will your comment about this theory?

[crazybayman]

People always debate something in FF8 like R=U, S=G, U=J, laguna= squall's father theory...
even thou there are some similarities in the characters it doesn't mean something...
squall is squall, rinoa is rinoa, ultimecia is ultimecia,etc. people are just thinking to much about this game.
Why dont we just stop our imaginations and focus on the real story of the game.

I'm just going to add this one: some people says that griever is squall's idea of a perfect GF and ultimecia uses squall's imagination about griever to make her own GF
but arent you wondering why does quistis have griever's special attack? (Shockwave Pulsar) what is quistis relation to griever?
I think shockwave pulsar is indeed quistis ultimate skill not griever's remember the event when ultimecia said this?...

[In japanese version]
Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things [from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment you.

[or in german version]
Ultimecia: What is the absolute power for your?
The stronger your will, the bigger your pain.
Face the power!

it says that she will take something from them and there magic were taken away from them maybe in this event ultimecia got quistis shockwave pulsar ability and maybe ultimecia descided that this skill will be griever's skill...?

What will your comment about this theory?

A combination of that which they ALL fear. Squall's imagination of the most powerful GF - Griever. Ultimecia then draws something from Quistis' mind, that which she believes to be her most powerful attack. Quistis' fear is that something could oneday use her most powerful attack against her. Therefore Ultimecia gets this from Quistis' mind, and allows Griever to use Quistis' most powerful, and most feared attack, Shockwave pulsar.

This is open to debate, as where not told this specifically. However it makes sense to me.

[Future Esthar]

This is just a game,Crazybayman.

[crazybayman]

This is just a game,Crazybayman.

Very good FE. :rolleyes2 What's your point?

[Future Esthar]

Being sarcastic.
If I can´t make theories about minor details why can you?

[crazybayman]

Being sarcastic.
If I can´t make theories about minor details why can you?

Because I'm a god.

Seriously though, I would hardly call that a theory, but a small, simple explanation. And as I said, its open to interpretation. I didn't say:

"OMG ITS TRUE, HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY REFUTE THIS?!?!? YOU CAN'T BECAUSE I PROVED IT TO BE TRUE WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT. UNLESS SOMEONE CAN PROVE ME WRONG IT HAS TO BE TRUE."

Which is usually what your arguments say.

[fire_of_avalon]

Stay on topic.