about the origin of ultimecia (big big spoiler)

[Sir Bahamut]

You make vaid points, Big D, but the japanese version makes it pretty clear:

Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things [from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment you. Fufu.

The implications are that it is their feelings that she is using against them, not simply a GF. Although I agree that Griever is(was) probably a legend from the past, I think it is pretty clear that Ultimecia never actually caught this legendary GF. Instead, she fashioned one based on Squalls image of him.

As for the Square denying the theory in a magasine, it sounds rather suspect, but if it's real, that'd be great.

[Masamune·1600]

As for Griever being Squall, that's directly contradicted by the game, which makes it clear that Ultimecia created Griever on the spot during that fight from the feelings of her opponents. Griever was, in Squall's mind, the most powerful of beings.

I disagree that Ultimecia simply made Griever on the spot. All we're told in the game - by Scanning Griever - is that Griever is, "in Squall's mind the most powerful GF". This could simply imply that Squall believes Griever to be the most powerful GF. The fact that Squall has Griever icons on his necklace, ring and gublade suggest that it's more than just a made-up imaginary friend. Squall doesn't strike me as the type to simply invent a make-believe plaything and then waste time and money having metal tokens cast and manufactured for his own use. Squall's minor idolisation of Griever suggests, to me, that Griever is a being that is known to some people in the FFVIII world - like an obscure legend of a mighty lion-god or something. Not everyone's familiar with the story, hence why he had to explain it to Rinoa, but it's obviously familiar to more than a few since there's apparently enough demand to warrant the production of Griever paraphernalia - jewellry, gunblades, gunblade cases, gunblade handle tokens.

I reckon that Griever is 'the most powerful GF', one that's always existed and been known in the FFVIII world, but was finally caught and used by Ultimecia. It just makes a kind of literary sense for Squall ultimately to confront the very beast that he's always admired and always believed supreme - it means he really *is* in for a tough fight, not just another Sorceress with just another GF.

Actually, though, the game directly addresses the question of Griever being directly Drawn from Squall's mind. Ultimecia tells Squall that Griever is being Drawn from his thoughts. The direct Japanese dialogue drives this home with heightened clarity.

Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things
[from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment
you. Fufu.

In this context, the scan data can be interpreted to support the supposition that Griever was "created on the spot." Griever, in Squall's mind, was the ultimate GF, and, using those thoughts as a template, Ultimecia brought forth a GF to battle the party. This view makes even more sense in light of the fact that Ultimecia can blow away stocked spells, suggestive of her ability to affect memory.

It's also important to note what Griever actually meant to Squall. On Disc 2, when Rinoa questions Squall about his ring, he notes that lions (like the one on the ring) are known for their great strength and pride. As these are qualities that are very important to Squall, I would personally view Griever as more akin to an ideal, than simply a known legend.

Rinoa: You know something, I couldn't afford to fall off that cliff and
die. I have something very important that belongs to you. I can't die
until I give it back to you, right? Zell gave it to me, see? I've been
holding onto it.

Squall: (I'm gonna kill him...) That's my favorite ring. You'd better
give it back.

Rinoa: I'm sure it is. It's a cool-looking ring. What's this monster on
it anyway?

Squall: It's not a monster. It's a lion. Lions are known for their
great strength and pride.

Rinoa: Hmm...great strength...pride... ...Kinda like you, Squall.

Squall: I wish...

Rinoa: Hmm...so this L I O N of yours, does it have a name?

Squall: Of course. Griever.

Admittedly, we know that Squall has some knowledge of 'legendary Guardian Forces.' After all, when encountering Bahamut in the Deep Sea Research Center....

Bahamut: I am... Bahamut.
Squall: The legendary GF....

This is not enough, however, to sway me from the belief that Griever was, in fact, directly Drawn from Squall's mind. It's certainly possible (maybe even probable) that a GF called Griever existed in the world of FFVIII. However, the Griever utilized by Ultimecia was, most likely, a reproduction of this being based on the parameters for Griever that existed within Squall.

EDIT: Sorry for reusing some of your ideas, Sir Bahamut. I guess you responded while I was typing this post.

[Squall of SeeD]

No, Big D. In the Japanese Version, Ultimecia clearly creates him on the spot, saying that she will take the party's most powerful feelings and force them to face them. It's something along the lines of "From your feelings, I shall make the most powerful of things." That translation's not exact, so bear with me.

She then says something along the lines of "The greater they are, the greater shall be your suffering! Fufu!"

The German Version is also similar in this respect:

"What is the absolute power for you? ["For you" meaning "in your opinion"]
The stronger your will, the bigger your pain.
Face the power!"

There is a greaaaat degree of variance between the English, German, and Japanese lines, with the German lines being most similar to those in Japanese.

I don't have access to all of the Japanese lines for the game, but I do have a complete German translation for the entire battle sequence with Ultimecia and Griever. Compare it to the English Version:

-English-

::Ultimecia gets pounded on for a while::

"The most powerful GF..."
"...You shall..."
"...SUFFER...!"
"HAHAHA..."

:riever comes and it gets pounded on for a while::

"The GF's true power...
Allow me...
To show you...!
Griever! Make them bleed!"

::Ultimecia prepares to Junction with Griever::

"I shall junction myself unto Griever!"

::The Junctioned Ultimecia with Griever is defeated::

"Rghaah..."

::Ultimecia rises up with her full power from having absorbed the power of the other Witches, absorbing the universe even as we speak; she then fights SeeD::

"I am Ultimecia.
Time shall compress...
...All existence denied.
Reflect on your...
Childhood...
Your sensation...
Your words...
Your emotions...
Time...
It will not wait...
No matter...
...how hard you hold on.
It escapes you.
And..."


(Translated courtesy of Eckesachs)
-German Version-

::Ultimecia gets pounded on for a while::

"What is the absolute power for you?
The stronger your will, the bigger your pain.
Face the power!"

:riever comes and it gets pounded on for a while::

"Memory loss?
...that is what you fear?
Show them your true power!
Show them, Griever!"

::Ultimecia prepares to Junction with Griever::

"The game is over!
I will junction Griever!"

::The Junctioned Ultimecia with Griever is defeated::

"Ughhh..."

::Ultimecia rises up with her full power from having absorbed the power of the other Witches, absorbing the universe even as we speak; she then fights SeeD::

"I am Ultimecia.
I merge time.
I deny existence.
Memories...
from far childhood.
Those sensations...
Those words...
Those feelings...
By growing up,
much is lost.
Time does not wait.
You keep hold of it,
and yet it melts away.
But now..."


Edit: Damn, we're all leaping to the attack. You guys got Posts in before me.

[Christmas]

Ahh...So, in my humble opinion...I have always thought Ultimecia is just a random person living in the future until Rinoa's power is passed from her generation to Ultimecia's generation. Simple huh? Maybe too simple.....

[Big D]

Ah, thanks for the details of the Japanese script. That's very handy and enlightening. While it's now clear that Griever can't have been a previously-existent GF, I'd say that there still must've been some old 'Griever legend', like Sir Bahamut says. This does, however, effectively debunk the old "R=U" support evidence which maintained that, since Ultimecia owns Squall's favourite GF, then there "must" be some kind of connection.

I speak German, so the German script would be interesting to see sometime

Edit: Unknowns, that's exactly what I've always believed! It's actually supported by dialogue in the game, too. Onboard the Ragnarok in disc four, Rinoa talks about how simply defeating Ultimecia won't change the fact that she'll still be born. She discusses how her own powers will be passed on through the generations, eventually reaching Ultimecia. "What does it mean to inherit Ultimecia's power?" she asks.

[disapointedchild]

Wow, this topic seems to come up a lot, and usually doesnt end up good.
Look everybody has there own opinions, and truthfully nobody can 100% prove either theory correct.

I think its just best leave this touchy subject alone.

As for my opinion, I dont believe R=U, because there is no concrete
proof.

[liamo]

just a quick thing on the ultimicia is julia theory... didn't julia die when rinoa was young?

[Takara]

just a quick thing on the ultimicia is julia theory... didn't julia die when rinoa was young?

She did, in a car accident. I believe Rinoa was 5 when it happened too, though I might be off on Rinoa's age.

[liamo]

no your spot on so thats another useless theory down the drain

[Christmas]

just a quick thing on the ultimicia is julia theory... didn't julia die when rinoa was young?

Read the two threads "A very important subtle poll " and " Wonder how people didn´t notice this" and you will understand why.

[crazybayman]

For example, people often cite Ultimecia's castle being near/facing the flower field where Squall and Rinoa promised to meet as being evidence of this. However, there are fresh bodies of dead White SeeDs littering the beach at the Orphanage, which would suggest that Ultimecia's castle was there for her to take out the last SeeDs to settle her grudge with them before casting Time Compression.

Pardon me for asking......

but how does that prove that Rinoa ISN'T Ultimecia? I'm not saying I believe the R=U theory, but just because the castle was there for her to kill the last Seeds, why does that mean that Rinoa doesn't somehow become twisted and evil, and turn into Ultimecia, and proceed to take out the last Seeds?

[Craig]

Ahh...So, in my humble opinion...I have always thought Ultimecia is just a random person living in the future until Rinoa's power is passed from her generation to Ultimecia's generation. Simple huh? Maybe too simple.....

I'm going to go with that. If what Autumn Rain says is true, then Rinoa isn't Ultimecia.

[crazybayman]

Ahh...So, in my humble opinion...I have always thought Ultimecia is just a random person living in the future until Rinoa's power is passed from her generation to Ultimecia's generation. Simple huh? Maybe too simple.....

I'm going to go with that. If what Autumn Rain says is true, then Rinoa isn't Ultimecia.

Yes that does make sense.

[Fire_Emblem776]

the world will never know

on the bright side

(SPOILER)I saved a lot of monry by switching to Geico! Hehe suckers!

[Squall of SeeD]

For example, people often cite Ultimecia's castle being near/facing the flower field where Squall and Rinoa promised to meet as being evidence of this. However, there are fresh bodies of dead White SeeDs littering the beach at the Orphanage, which would suggest that Ultimecia's castle was there for her to take out the last SeeDs to settle her grudge with them before casting Time Compression.

Pardon me for asking......

but how does that prove that Rinoa ISN'T Ultimecia? I'm not saying I believe the R=U theory, but just because the castle was there for her to kill the last Seeds, why does that mean that Rinoa doesn't somehow become twisted and evil, and turn into Ultimecia, and proceed to take out the last Seeds?

You misunderstood the point. It wasn't that it proved she isn't. The point was that it discredited the "Ultimecia had her castle there because she was waiting for Squall" thing.

Her hating the SeeDs + Killing the last ones shortly before she casts Time Compression and ascends to godhood = Her most likely being there to settle a grudge.