about the origin of ultimecia (big big spoiler)

[BG-57]

You can't prove a negative in this case anyway. I think R=U is possible but not plausible.

A useful principle is Occam's razor; it states that, all things being equal, a simpler explanation is better than a complex one. Most of the arguments in favor of R=U are too complex.

[Dragonheart]

At the Final FMV what if when Rinoa finds Squall he is dead, then she would live in greif and insanity.Think of the similarities and opposites between rinoa and ultimecia. rinoa in the beginning is seen in a flurry of white flowers and is seen with white wings(a.k.a. angel wings) yet ultimecia too has wings(a.k.a. hell's angel wings) that are black with black flowers.the hair is the same the appearance is way different except the eyes. think of adel she wasn't born like that she was possesed by an earlier sorceress or sorcerer like Hyne, quote" Sorceress Rinoa...Hyne's descendent" she was torn bye insanity and changed, body and mind.....................................Just think about the possibilities then you'll understand.
I have confirmed this theory with the creaters of the game

[Ravenmorghane]

The matter of Rinoa being Ultimecia is really baseless. It requires the assumption that Witches are immortal

Erm they're sorceresses not witches

Witches are people who follow the pagan religions and cast spells the traditional ways to change things and have beliefs.

Soreceresses have powers like being able to shoot blasts of energy with their fingers or telekinesis etc.

[Takara]

I don't think Rinoa's and Ultimecia's hair look similar at all. Not only it's not the same colour, but Ulty has a widow's peak if I recall well, and Rinoa's hairline looks quite different.

Granted, she COULD have changed her appearance, but even there, just because they look similar does not mean that R=U.

[Big D]

At the Final FMV what if when Rinoa finds Squall he is dead, then she would live in greif and insanity.

He wasn't dead. He was pretty close to death, because his reality had basically disintegrated around him, but he survived. This is proved incontrovertibly by the very end of the game, after the credits.

Think of the similarities and opposites between rinoa and ultimecia. rinoa in the beginning is seen in a flurry of white flowers and is seen with white wings(a.k.a. angel wings) yet ultimecia too has wings(a.k.a. hell's angel wings) that are black with black flowers.

Most of the sorceresses have some kind of head-dress. Edea's garment is closer in appearance to Ultimecia's; it proves nothing.

the hair is the same

Except for being straight, their hair is completely different.

the appearance is way different except the eyes. think of adel she wasn't born like that

This just shows that some sorceresses can use magic to change how they look. What are you trying to say? "Rinoa and Ultimecia look similar, so they must be the same person. But they look different too, and this also proves they're the same person"?

she was possesed by an earlier sorceress or sorcerer like Hyne,

Evidence?

quote" Sorceress Rinoa...Hyne's descendent"

"Hyne's descendent" is a term of respect. When you call a sorceress by that title, you're just showing courtesty.[qutoe] she was torn bye insanity and changed, body and mind.....................................Just think about the possibilities then you'll understand.[/quote]This is a popular explanation for the R=U theory, but still just a theory.

I have confirmed this theory with the creaters of the game

Codswallop.

[liamo]

the game creaters said that this theory has no real credit

[Squall of SeeD]

The matter of Rinoa being Ultimecia is really baseless. It requires the assumption that Witches are immortal

Erm they're sorceresses not witches

Witches are people who follow the pagan religions and cast spells the traditional ways to change things and have beliefs.

Soreceresses have powers like being able to shoot blasts of energy with their fingers or telekinesis etc.

The Japanese Version calls them "Witches." For that matter, when Nomura designed Edea, she was just called "The Witch." Further, note the song in the game called "SUCCESSION OF WITCHES" (yes, in all capital letters). Further still, the words that show up in several songs in the game and are also the title of a song in the game are "Fithos Lusec Wecos Vinosec." These words are an anagram of "Succession of Witches" and "Love," two of the game's main themes.

When the game was brought to North America, "Witch" was changed to "Sorceress" because of the negative connotation that the term "Witch" has in this part of the world as a result of the closed-minded and incompetent nature of many.

Most of the sorceresses have some kind of head-dress. Edea's garment is closer in appearance to Ultimecia's; it proves nothing.

On top of that, most of the Witches we see in the game have some kind of wing/feathery motif. Edea has feathers around the top of her dress, Adel has spiny black wings without feathers, Ultimecia has larger spiny black wings, possibly with feathers, though it's difficult to determine just by looking at them, and Rinoa has large white feathered wings.

[Ravenmorghane]

When the game was brought to North America, "Witch" was changed to "Sorceress" because of the negative connotation that the term "Witch" has in this part of the world as a result of the closed-minded and incompetent nature of many.

B/S
gimme proof or I'll just believe that they more likely changed 'witch' to 'soreceress' because it was a more accurate name for them. Like I said, witches don't go around blasting people with ice shards, thats what a sorceress does.
And if westerns really see ill of witches why was the TV series Charmed popular around the same time period that the game was released? same with Buffy, and probably countless programmes and films of a similar genre.
Closemindedness has nothing to do with it, since 1990's people have always had a interest in the 'supernatural' .. FF8 was not designed in the witch hunt times you know!

when did I become so nitpicky?? look what you've done to me!

[Squall of SeeD]

When the game was brought to North America, "Witch" was changed to "Sorceress" because of the negative connotation that the term "Witch" has in this part of the world as a result of the closed-minded and incompetent nature of many.

B/S
gimme proof or I'll just believe that they more likely changed 'witch' to 'soreceress' because it was a more accurate name for them. Like I said, witches don't go around blasting people with ice shards, thats what a sorceress does.
And if westerns really see ill of witches why was the TV series Charmed popular around the same time period that the game was released? same with Buffy, and probably countless programmes and films of a similar genre.
Closemindedness has nothing to do with it, since 1990's people have always had a interest in the 'supernatural' .. FF8 was not designed in the witch hunt times you know!

when did I become so nitpicky?? look what you've done to me!

Television is a different medium than video games. Video games have always been under the crosshairs of overbearing parental groups and trigger happy "We've got to shelter the chiiiiildren!" Senators. The last thing they needed in 1999 was either of these factions bearing down on them with the Big Stick of Righteousness.

Hell, the dialogue was also heavily modified at certain points. Translated as it was, it was going to have an M-Rating. Obnoxious and insulting as Seifer was, he was really a lot more rude.


As far as "Sorceress" supposedly more accurately conveying what was clearly meant as "Witch" -- I'm not even sure how you managed to ignore the evidence I pointed out -- there's the fact that they have the same etymological value. "Sorcerer" and "Sorceress" have the ultimate root of "Sors" in Latin, which means "Sort" in the context of "Destiny" or "Fortune." Decrees from Oracles concerning the future were called "Sorteres," meaning "Lots." It is from this that we get the concepts of casting and drawing "lots" based on fortune/luck.

With that in mind, both Sorceresses and Witches employ Magic, which stems from the word "Magus," which basically means "One who knows" or "One rich in knowledge."

Witches, Sages, Priests, Sorcerers, Viziers, and all their counterparts have the same etymological value, so I'm not sure what you were getting at here.


By the way, have you never seen anything else from Japan that had a Witch? Try The Record of Lodoss War. The Grey Witch is fully capable of telekinesis.

I'm not sure where you determined that a Witch would be incapable of using an Ice Spell, but whatever.

[Ravenmorghane]

The ice 'spell' was a random example from FF8, where Edea physically blasts ice shards at Squall. And its technically not a spell.
I'm just going by definitions. and it really doesnt matter. I was just pointing out something minor. You seem to be referring more to the stereotypical mythical witches that we see in computer games and films. I'm referring to REAL witches as in the religion. I have a fair amount of insight to that.

[Rini]

Future Esthar reminds me of that astronomist from the south park episode with the aliens who comes up with random words and traces them back to some sort of relevance.

haha :D "Cancelled" \o/
"Wait a minute... candy bars. they usually come in a wrapper. just like you wrap a christmas present. christmas happens when it's cold. cold as in Alaska. there's polar bears... polar bears... polarity! I can switch the polarity to see what transmissions are coming from the location this one is being sent to."
(had to watch the part of the episode where this was, couldn't remember it thoroughly :P)

anyway...

It was never stated half of the things implied in the Rinoa=Ulti theory.
And the only set of pictures you had to prove this was a picture of Rinoa and Ulti.
And they look too different.
This was not the case in the Julia=Ulti theory.
The Xerampelinae picture look a lot like Julia.

So what if Ultimecia had a painting of Julia on her wall? What if she was just a big fan of hers? You know, because Julia was the famous singer in the past, maybe she was good enough for Ulti to like her music ;)
Think about that.

Okay and about the Griever thing.. I never thought that Squall could be Griever, the thought never crossed my mind.

I reckon that Griever is 'the most powerful GF', one that's always existed and been known in the FFVIII world, but was finally caught and used by Ultimecia. It just makes a kind of literary sense for Squall ultimately to confront the very beast that he's always admired and always believed supreme - it means he really *is* in for a tough fight, not just another Sorceress with just another GF.

I was just about to say the same thing (just in a more simpler way, like my mind works heh).

Then about R=U. I don't know what's true and what not, but as somewhere stated already, the game's much more interesting to play when you think that way, that Rinoa is Ultimecia. Or a little simpler way:
Sorceresses pass on their powers before they die, right. So what if they pass on a bit of their own memories at the same time, much like with dress spheres in X-2 (you know the songstress dress sphere with Lenne's thoughts and memories in it). That way, Rinoa's, and other sorceresses, like Edea's, memories were all passed down again and again unto Ultimecia, who then becomes schitzophrenic and gets mad and wants to kill everyone. omg.

[ThroneofDravaris]

I'm referring to REAL witches as in the religion. I have a fair amount of insight to that.

Witches don’t really exist, they’re just crazy people that wear black and don’t shower.

[Squall of SeeD]

The ice 'spell' was a random example from FF8, where Edea physically blasts ice shards at Squall. And its technically not a spell.

What would you call it?

I'm referring to REAL witches as in the religion. I have a fair amount of insight to that.

As do I, which leaves me even more baffled by your argument here. It amounts to "They're not the same thing despite being the same thing."

[Ravenmorghane]

ok you're confusing me .. a spell is where you have candles and its kinda like meditating, the ice shard thing is a form of telekinesis really .. its a power or ability that a being gains.
I'm not saying they're the same at all you're confusing me now so just drop it. anyways were way off topic and we'll probably get told off for discussing something irrelevant instead of PMing. Plus I gave up caring.

[sephiroth9006]

i actually think that Ulticima is the daughter of squall and rinoa,as they do look sorta similar in appearance,but she has some of squalls facial features(well i think,by looking at her face).
and i think that Griever was a result of manipulation of rinoas and squalls dead memories and souls,creating the ultimate GF out of their pure emotions and feelings, which lead her to study time compression arts,technically making her a time mage as opposed to a pure sorceress. she gained her extra power,by going back in her twisted history and editing it, which was how the sorceress hyne actually died, at the hands of ulticima,and also elimintaing the solomon family which had some sort of great power,but she overlooked it and discared their coat of arms (Solomon ring). After modifing history to her liking she fixed it so that she could try and stop her own birth to prevent her pain and suffering.
well those are some theories that i'm still not to sure about, and i'll probably get flamed for it,but i'm posting my veiws.