OOOOOOOh. OK now i feel kind of stupid but it all makes sense now. I always believed that Dream Zanarkand was INSIDE Sin, that it did'nt belong to Spira but was in a world of its own kindof. Makes sense now tho. Why would Sin come get Jecht anyways.
OOOOOOOh. OK now i feel kind of stupid but it all makes sense now. I always believed that Dream Zanarkand was INSIDE Sin, that it did'nt belong to Spira but was in a world of its own kindof. Makes sense now tho. Why would Sin come get Jecht anyways.
Originally Posted by I WILL DIE FOR YOU
Okay, Okay, In summary, "IF Shuyin didn't look like Tidus, then there would be absolutely no reason for FFX-2 to exist."
Why can't Tidus ever be Tidus? Why's he gotta look like Chappu or Shuyin?
^ Ultima88
Super cool forum, click here and join!: http://s13.invisionfree.com/World_of...ex.php?act=idx (join the RP)
...And it was Spoken...
This has been an intriguing thread... very cool... props to those who did their homework and didn't just post out of the blue....
But.... In X everyone says how much Tidus looks like Chappu too... where dos he fall into place?....
The deal about Tidus resembling Chappu imo, is only something they came up with to make Wakka want to shelter Tidus, and bring him along.
Squall of SeeD's take on the question
Squall mentioned to me in a PM that he won't be posting here for some time, but did suggest that I post his recently developed explanation for the similarity between Tidus and Shuyin. Here, quoted from the PM, is what he said.
Again, note that this is Squall's work, not my own. I do agree, however, with the theory.
As to the point regarding Chappu, I would say this falls into what Squall called "amazing coincidences." In that case, however, the plot point is minor, and doesn't invite the questioning that the Shuyin/Tidus similarities did and do.
try gettin many people to read that i tryed but got confussed half way through
If you cannot convince them, confuse them.
A day for firm decisions!!! Or is it??
Very interesting and thought provoking read. I agree withy the main thrust, but I do think Tidus and Shuyin would have more than 'looks and techniques' in common. Their lives were different but I think a lot of character traits would still pass over.
Consider that the POINT of Dream-Zanarkand was, if I recall correctly, to preserve the memory of Zanarkand before it got destroyed. Including its people. If you want to do that, anjd you don't want to 'reset'every so many years, you WOULD need to make it so that the same people appear. Slightly different, but deep down the same. I mean, if it's a whole bunch of people that never WERE in real Zanarkand there, is it really still your memory? For the same reason I presume that nothing gets built or destroyed in Zanarkand (except through Sin) or no new technological breakthroughs are made, and the only way to leave is. DZ has to stick close to Real Zanarkand. (Oh, and there seem to be no memories of the War. Makes sense, the LAST thing the Fayth want to remember is the war that destroyed them) I don'r think Dream Zanarkand is just an 'isolated world'where everything else progresses normally. It's a memory, a dream, replaying with slight variations.
Really sad in a way. Dream Zanarkand is going nowhere, just like Spira in FF-X. Spira ended up with a future, but Dream Zanarkand, being the Past, has no future and fades.
But Tidus and Shuying are so different!
Are they?
Consider it's not the CURRENT Shuying we're talking about. He's driven nearly mad after 1000 years of reliving his most desperate memory, and it's up in the air how much he IS Shuyin, and how much just his negative emotions. (Even after reuniting with Lenne, he sounds bitter 'a thousand years, and this is all we get?', and once he DOES release his bitterness, he fades) The Fayth of Zanarkand don't know about that, and can't remember him as that. They MIGHT remember a young man who'd do everything and brave all dangers to save the one he loves, with a penchant for getting angry. I mean, your love is off to fight in a struggle you know will cost her life, so what do you do? You fight your way to Bevelle to get their strongest weapon (so so strong they're afraid to use it, but you ARE desperate) all to save her. That does sound like Tidus. After all, didn't he, in a way, do the same when they killed Yunalesca? Sure, they might doom Spira, but Yuna must be saved.
I think there IS a connection, but Shuyin's circumstances sent him down a darker path, and after he died, stuff went from bad to worse. (TRY to imagine what Tidus would do if Yuna HAD sacrificed herself to 'defeat' Sin and he failed to rescue nher. Add thousand years of instant replay.)
So I would say that there is more of a conenction. HOWEVER, their connection stops the moment Shuyin left Zanarkand. All the stuff about being shot, Tidus would have no way of remembering, even deep in his heart, since he, the recycled memory of Shuyin, only goes up till the point where the Fayth can remember him.
Hmm.... Note that the Fayth probably WOULD recognize Shuyin though. And that they'd seek to contact him, since in a way, he's like them. But not entirely. After all the Fayth, and he could be considered something of an authority on the matter, does say that this Shuyin is just a shadow.
The storm was coming? Light, he WAS the storm
-Rand Al'Thor.Path of Daggers. Robert Jordan
I like it. I like it a lot. I had often wondered about the similarities between T/Y and S/L. So, wait, first, were the similarities between Yuna and Lenne a coincidence?
Shuyin died a thousand years ago trying to usurp control of Vegnagun to save his love, Lenne, for she was soon to Pilgrimage for Aeons to battle Bevelle. They, in the end, died together, but Shuyin was unable to accept it. Filled with bitterness, his essence merged with the pyreflies which preserved his memories (along with his desire to use Vegnagun on the world) for a thousand years, at some point being present in the Mushroom Rock cave.
Tidus is a dream of the Fayth who wished to defeat Sin. As is common in any dream, Tidus and the rest of Zanarkand was based on the physical recollection of what had once already existed. However, again, as is common in dreams, Tidus and Zanarkand were not identical to whom or what they were modelled after. Tidus's thoughts, emotions, and memories, his ideals and opinions were all his own. His body possessed the memories present in the body of Shuyin thus allowing him to learn quickly to fight. However, the memory of the body is different from the memory of the mind. Anyone who has ever watched the Borne Identity or The Long Kiss Goodnight would know this.
The physical memory is how Tidus' attacks look similar to Shuyin's as has been mentioned. Easiest question ever to answer is why their attacks don't simply share their names as well. Tidus names his attacks based on his attitude whereas Shuyin named his attacks long ago based on his own attitude. This in itself lends evidence that Tidus does not think like Shuyin.
A question I developed when reading about Dream Zanarkand is why it too was destroyed. Ten years previous, Jecht, an unbelievable Blitzball champion, was brought to Spira to be Summoner Braska's Guardian. Perhaps after merging with Yu Yevon in the casting of the Final Aeon, his thoughts concerning Tidus drove Yu Yevon to destroy Dream Zanarkand in effort to prevent Tidus from becoming a Guardian to a future Summoner. Perhaps it was somehow known that Tidus would stop the cycle of Final Aeon and Sin as in some prophetic vision.
I can't really make any real assumptions, I haven't played either of the games in a while .
Tidus and Shuyin were not "deep down the same," as both were unique individuals, with separate, unique souls. This would have to be the case if the residents of Dream Zanarkand travelled to the Farplane after death, rather than simply vanishing forever. Clearly, the "real" Shuyin was still active in Spira, and his soul would have been, by extension, inaccessible. Any "Dream Shuyin" used as part of the original Dream template would have died in the normal course of time, and gone to the Farplane. It would have thus been impossible to recycle anyone's true "inner self."
Its a stretch to distinguish between your idea of a "memory replaying" and the already disproved "temporal reset." Even if there is a distinction, it's clear that the dynamic Dream Zanarkand does change. Note what I said earlier in the thread.
While it makes sense to argue that the Dream might have been based on pre-Machina War Zanarkand, Summoning was likely a part of the city's culture for long before that. Removing Summoning from Dream Zanarkand, either by conscious decision or by the passage of time, is inescaply a departure from the reality of Zanarkand as it once existed.
Sad, yes, but Dream Zanarkand had a future (though probably with limitations imposed by the nature of the Dreaming), as it is clearly in flux. The reason the city fades, along with its populace, is simply that the Summoning that bound it and its citizens to Spira was ended.
It's already been established that "real Shuyin," "Dream Shuyin," and Tidus are all completely separate from and independent of one another. It doesn't matter whether the "current" Shuyin or the pre-war Shuyin was the original template, as even Dream Shuyin would have differed from his Spiran counterpart, and Tidus would have had no connection beyond similarities in appearance and facility. Both the theory I initially proposed and the one Squall later made account for this.
As already established numerous times, it is impossible for there to be any link between Tidus and Shuyin, other than one where Shuyin is, in one way or another, a physical template for Tidus. In any case, the Fayth would not have ever even envisioned Tidus and Yuna having any sort of relationship, as Yuna was not of Dream Zanarkand.
It's a difficult question, but I can only conclude that they are (or rather, that they're merely symbolic). It would be impossible for there to be any continuity between Lenne and Yuna, as reincarnation is impossible. It's similarly impossible for Yuna to be a descendent of Lenne. As to Tidus and Yuna's relationship mirroring Shuyin and Lenne's, it was a departure from the intent of the Summoning that Tidus and Yuna even met.
Exactly.
Basically, the events of FFX as concerned Tidus required an accident, a departure from the intent of the Summoning/Dreaming. Dream Zanarkand was supposed to be completely isolated from Spira (note that Dream Zanarkand is a physical location in Spira, as opposed to another dimension/plane of existence). While training for Blitzball in the sea, however, Jecht came into contact with Sin, which both removed a certain overcontrol exerted as part of the Summoning, and led him to wind up in Spira. This unintended occurance culminated in Jecht himself "becoming" Sin. Even in Sin, part of Jecht still manifested himself (a "preference" for the Hymn of the Fayth makes this clear). Sin, as Jecht, went to Dream Zanarkand solely because of Tidus. Tidus, in his encounter with Sin, also escaped the overcontrol, and ultimately ended up in Spira.
In summation, Sin attacked Dream Zanarkand because, well, Sin is destructive. Recall that Sin even destroyed the original Zanarkand (although had it not, Bevelle probably would have). However, Sin specifically went to Dream Zanarkand because Jecht wanted to see his son. As Sin is the only means whereby a resident of Dream Zanarkand could move beyond the reality of the city, Yu Yevon would not have wanted Sin anywhere in its vicinity.
Last edited by Masamune·1600; 08-18-2005 at 04:17 AM.
I do realize that Tidus, in no way carries anything from Shuyin's soul, as Shuyin, even IF what we fight is just a shadow of him, died in bevelle and presumably wnet to the Farplane and left some emotions behind that became insane Shuyin, OR or became Insane-Shuyin himself. Irrelevant to the dicussion, whatever the case, I agree that Tidus carries in him NO PART of Shuyin.Tidus and Shuyin were not "deep down the same," as both were unique individuals, with separate, unique souls. This would have to be the case if the residents of Dream Zanarkand travelled to the Farplane after death, rather than simply vanishing forever. Clearly, the "real" Shuyin was still active in Spira, and his soul would have been, by extension, inaccessible. Any "Dream Shuyin" used as part of the original Dream template would have died in the normal course of time, and gone to the Farplane. It would have thus been impossible to recycle anyone's true "inner self."
However, Tidus is dreamt by Fayth. And whiloe a certain element of randomization can apply, considering that he already LOOKS like Shuyin and FIGHTS like Shuyin, and those things are IMHOa DELIBERATE thing by the faiyth I think it's likely he has lots of emoitional tendencies in common with Shuyin, eventhough they indeed have lead different lives. (though they were likely BOTH Blitzers, as Shuyin ALSO uses a ball in his overdrive)
Not really. Resetting would be impossible because of the guy mentioning something about ten years ago. The proof doesn't say anything about how when person A dies in Dream Zanarkand, the Fayth dream it so that person A, who is an integral part of their cherished memory, is born somewhere entirely else. He'd be somewhat different of course, but still recognizable enough for a satisfying dream. If Tidus is nothing like Shuyin, and all people are nothing like the original Zanarkanders, except in looks, what's the point of trying to preserve the memory?
There IS a dicsonnect. I would keep in mind
v[/quote]
Summoners would remind the Fayth of the war, and besides remind the Dream Zanarkand is a dream, and for plot reasons would be a hindrance as well. Heck, just loo at OUR cities. Would you recognize Rome (to take an old city) from a thousand years ago? Or from a thousand year in the future? Even if you lived there? There IS a disconnect, but it's there because the Fayth wanted it to be. If Dream Zanarkand was just started off and then given free reign, it'd have changed a whole lot more than lacking Summonners. (Also, the Yevon Dome, wouldn't Yevon have constructed that AFTER the whole mess? And even if he did before, consideirng what he's done, the Fayth would probably not want to remember HIM either)
A question of how much Flux it was in, and how far it was allowed to stray. The Sphere we see in FFX-2 shows a REAL Zanarkand that looks just like Dream Zanarkand. Dream Zanarkand that is a thousand year older.Sad, yes, but Dream Zanarkand had a future (though probably with limitations imposed by the nature of the Dreaming), as it is clearly in flux. The reason the city fades, along with its populace, is simply that the Summoning that bound it and its citizens to Spira was ended.
If you're gonna make it so that later 'Dream-citizens' LOOK and FIGHT like actual 'historic citizens' than it would seem very off to me that you go 'Oh, but their personality has NO link at all' Tidus is not built on Shuyin, but I would say he was built on the MEMORIES of Shuyin, and then inserted in Zanarkand.It's already been established that "real Shuyin," "Dream Shuyin," and Tidus are all completely separate from and independent of one another. It doesn't matter whether the "current" Shuyin or the pre-war Shuyin was the original template, as even Dream Shuyin would have differed from his Spiran counterpart, and Tidus would have had no connection beyond similarities in appearance and facility. Both the theory I initially proposed and the one Squall later made account for this.
Oh no, not saying any of that. And as I said, the SOUL of Shuyin has NO link at all to Tidus. But the MEMORY of Shuyin, as dreamt by the Fayth, does. And I would say, in more than just 'looks and swordfight stuff'As already established numerous times, it is impossible for there to be any link between Tidus and Shuyin, other than one where Shuyin is, in one way or another, a physical template for Tidus. In any case, the Fayth would not have ever even envisioned Tidus and Yuna having any sort of relationship, as Yuna was not of Dream Zanarkand.
The storm was coming? Light, he WAS the storm
-Rand Al'Thor.Path of Daggers. Robert Jordan
The theory, whether using mine or Squall's, involves the idea of Shuyin forming the physical template for Tidus. This template would not only carry over into appearance, but physical facility (the Overdrives and fighting ability, in other words) as well.I do realize that Tidus, in no way carries anything from Shuyin's soul, as Shuyin, even IF what we fight is just a shadow of him, died in bevelle and presumably wnet to the Farplane and left some emotions behind that became insane Shuyin, OR or became Insane-Shuyin himself. Irrelevant to the dicussion, whatever the case, I agree that Tidus carries in him NO PART of Shuyin.Tidus and Shuyin were not "deep down the same," as both were unique individuals, with separate, unique souls. This would have to be the case if the residents of Dream Zanarkand travelled to the Farplane after death, rather than simply vanishing forever. Clearly, the "real" Shuyin was still active in Spira, and his soul would have been, by extension, inaccessible. Any "Dream Shuyin" used as part of the original Dream template would have died in the normal course of time, and gone to the Farplane. It would have thus been impossible to recycle anyone's true "inner self."
However, Tidus is dreamt by Fayth. And whiloe a certain element of randomization can apply, considering that he already LOOKS like Shuyin and FIGHTS like Shuyin, and those things are IMHOa DELIBERATE thing by the faiyth I think it's likely he has lots of emoitional tendencies in common with Shuyin, eventhough they indeed have lead different lives. (though they were likely BOTH Blitzers, as Shuyin ALSO uses a ball in his overdrive)
However, what you suggest involves the Fayth dictating Tidus' very personality. First, this goes beyond the capacity of the Fayth, since while the memories of the Fayth are involved in manifesting the Aeon, it is the Summoner that dictates the reality of this manifestation. Even if one grants the Fayth such capacity, or simply shifts the focus of substantiation to Yu Yevon (which, in this case, would only add further complications), we have to realize that Tidus' personality is a function of his "inner self." His soul, as demonstrated, is his own, and it is beyond the capability of the Fayth to shape his emotions. This would, if nothing else, interfere with the reality of the Summoning.
For that matter, you require the assumption that Dream Shuyin bears the same emotional makeup as Tidus (for the purposes of our discussion, it's ironically irrelevant as to the personality of the real Shuyin). Now, ignoring the fact that Dream Shuyin's very existence is technically hypothetical (as it can logically be assumed, and all theories at work in this thread do assume it), we are forced to give traits to a being that makes no in-game appearance.
I thought that might have been what you were trying to suggest, as opposed to the temporal loop, but the game itself shows us that chance can upset the balance of Dream Zanarkand. While Sin's impact on Jecht was probably the first instance where Sin directly affected the Dream, we must take note of the fact that Dream Zanarkand was not altered to reflect this impact by the Fayth. Rather, Jecht's disappearance became a popular topic among the citizenry (recall Zanar's bit at the beginning of the game). The point here is that its not necessary to preserve the Dream in the form of the initial Memory.Not really. Resetting would be impossible because of the guy mentioning something about ten years ago. The proof doesn't say anything about how when person A dies in Dream Zanarkand, the Fayth dream it so that person A, who is an integral part of their cherished memory, is born somewhere entirely else. He'd be somewhat different of course, but still recognizable enough for a satisfying dream. If Tidus is nothing like Shuyin, and all people are nothing like the original Zanarkanders, except in looks, what's the point of trying to preserve the memory?Its a stretch to distinguish between your idea of a "memory replaying" and the already disproved "temporal reset." Even if there is a distinction, it's clear that the dynamic Dream Zanarkand does change. Note what I said earlier in the thread.
Where I disagree with you (and I should have said this earlier) is your assumption that Dream Zanarkand is supposed to be preserved in initial form. As the city can change (and would have changed, even before Sin's direct impact), we can logically assume that the only thing, ultimately, of significance is its continued substantiation. Yu Yevon would have long ago lost control to the Summoning, so only the continued Summoning itself is really of importance. In this case, it doesn't matter as to emotional replay; physical templates are simply reused as there is no alternative.
The point is that there is a clear disconnect from Zanarkand as it was construed in reality. If Yu Yevon/the Fayth were willing to dispense with a major pillar of the civilization's very culture, then there would have been little reason to stick to emotional makeups. For that matter, if the arbiter(s) (be it Yu Yevon or the Fayth) of the Summoning were willing to make changes to the true Memory, and allow it to evolve at all, there would have been no reason to reuse emotional templates.There IS a dicsonnect. I would keep in mind
v
Summoners would remind the Fayth of the war, and besides remind the Dream Zanarkand is a dream, and for plot reasons would be a hindrance as well. Heck, just loo at OUR cities. Would you recognize Rome (to take an old city) from a thousand years ago? Or from a thousand year in the future? Even if you lived there? There IS a disconnect, but it's there because the Fayth wanted it to be. If Dream Zanarkand was just started off and then given free reign, it'd have changed a whole lot more than lacking Summonners. (Also, the Yevon Dome, wouldn't Yevon have constructed that AFTER the whole mess? And even if he did before, consideirng what he's done, the Fayth would probably not want to remember HIM either)
There's no question that the very nature of Summoning places some restrictions on the development of Dream Zanarkand. However, there's also no question that the Dream is capable of change, and for that reason it's inaccurate to say that it is synonymous with "the past."A question of how much Flux it was in, and how far it was allowed to stray. The Sphere we see in FFX-2 shows a REAL Zanarkand that looks just like Dream Zanarkand. Dream Zanarkand that is a thousand year older.Sad, yes, but Dream Zanarkand had a future (though probably with limitations imposed by the nature of the Dreaming), as it is clearly in flux. The reason the city fades, along with its populace, is simply that the Summoning that bound it and its citizens to Spira was ended.
If you accept my theory, Dream Zanarkand residents are actually recycled from physical recollection inherent to pyreflies. If you accept Squall's (which I actually prefer), the limitations of the Fayth necessitate the reuse of physical templates. In either case, we see logical reasons why citizenry might "look and fight" like original citizens, without the need to resort to the reuse of personality.If you're gonna make it so that later 'Dream-citizens' LOOK and FIGHT like actual 'historic citizens' than it would seem very off to me that you go 'Oh, but their personality has NO link at all' Tidus is not built on Shuyin, but I would say he was built on the MEMORIES of Shuyin, and then inserted in Zanarkand.It's already been established that "real Shuyin," "Dream Shuyin," and Tidus are all completely separate from and independent of one another. It doesn't matter whether the "current" Shuyin or the pre-war Shuyin was the original template, as even Dream Shuyin would have differed from his Spiran counterpart, and Tidus would have had no connection beyond similarities in appearance and facility. Both the theory I initially proposed and the one Squall later made account for this.
If there is no link between the souls (which requires uniqueness), then we must accept the autonomy of the soul, which would invalidate your suggestion. "Looks and swordfight stuff" actually makes more sense, simply because it could be reused without the complications we're seeing here.Oh no, not saying any of that. And as I said, the SOUL of Shuyin has NO link at all to Tidus. But the MEMORY of Shuyin, as dreamt by the Fayth, does. And I would say, in more than just 'looks and swordfight stuff'As already established numerous times, it is impossible for there to be any link between Tidus and Shuyin, other than one where Shuyin is, in one way or another, a physical template for Tidus. In any case, the Fayth would not have ever even envisioned Tidus and Yuna having any sort of relationship, as Yuna was not of Dream Zanarkand.
Last edited by Masamune·1600; 08-18-2005 at 05:26 AM.
I read in one site that Tidus is the dreamt version of Shuyin.
Talk is cheap because supply exceeds demand.
This is a common, though incorrect, theory. While it's probable that there was an individual based on Shuyin (appropriately referred to as "Dream Shuyin" throughout the thread), one has to remember that the Dream began ~1000 years ago, and that Tidus is only 17 during the events of FFX. Thus, Tidus is far, far removed from Dream Shuyin.
OMG TOO MUCH READING *DIES*
Maybe it was just the fashion for Blitball players in Zanarkand to have short blonde spikey hair.
My Cure spell brings all the boys to the yard,
And they're like: "It's better than yours."
Damn right, it's better than yours!
I could Heal you, but I have to charge.
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