Tidus and Shuyin: An Analysis

[Rand Al'Tor]

Consider that the POINT of Dream-Zanarkand was, if I recall correctly, to preserve the memory of Zanarkand before it got destroyed. Including its people. If you want to do that, anjd you don't want to 'reset'every so many years, you WOULD need to make it so that the same people appear. Slightly different, but deep down the same.

Tidus and Shuyin were not "deep down the same," as both were unique individuals, with separate, unique souls. This would have to be the case if the residents of Dream Zanarkand travelled to the Farplane after death, rather than simply vanishing forever. Clearly, the "real" Shuyin was still active in Spira, and his soul would have been, by extension, inaccessible. Any "Dream Shuyin" used as part of the original Dream template would have died in the normal course of time, and gone to the Farplane. It would have thus been impossible to recycle anyone's true "inner self."

I do realize that Tidus, in no way carries anything from Shuyin's soul, as Shuyin, even IF what we fight is just a shadow of him, died in bevelle and presumably wnet to the Farplane and left some emotions behind that became insane Shuyin, OR or became Insane-Shuyin himself. Irrelevant to the dicussion, whatever the case, I agree that Tidus carries in him NO PART of Shuyin.

However, Tidus is dreamt by Fayth. And whiloe a certain element of randomization can apply, considering that he already LOOKS like Shuyin and FIGHTS like Shuyin, and those things are IMHOa DELIBERATE thing by the faiyth I think it's likely he has lots of emoitional tendencies in common with Shuyin, eventhough they indeed have lead different lives. (though they were likely BOTH Blitzers, as Shuyin ALSO uses a ball in his overdrive)

I mean, if it's a whole bunch of people that never WERE in real Zanarkand there, is it really still your memory? For the same reason I presume that nothing gets built or destroyed in Zanarkand (except through Sin) or no new technological breakthroughs are made, and the only way to leave is. DZ has to stick close to Real Zanarkand. (Oh, and there seem to be no memories of the War. Makes sense, the LAST thing the Fayth want to remember is the war that destroyed them) I don'r think Dream Zanarkand is just an 'isolated world'where everything else progresses normally. It's a memory, a dream, replaying with slight variations.

Its a stretch to distinguish between your idea of a "memory replaying" and the already disproved "temporal reset." Even if there is a distinction, it's clear that the dynamic Dream Zanarkand does change. Note what I said earlier in the thread.

Not really. Resetting would be impossible because of the guy mentioning something about ten years ago. The proof doesn't say anything about how when person A dies in Dream Zanarkand, the Fayth dream it so that person A, who is an integral part of their cherished memory, is born somewhere entirely else. He'd be somewhat different of course, but still recognizable enough for a satisfying dream. If Tidus is nothing like Shuyin, and all people are nothing like the original Zanarkanders, except in looks, what's the point of trying to preserve the memory?

[...]Also, note that the current Dream Zanarkand is not an exact replica of the destroyed Spiran Zanarkand. Yevon Dome has been replaced by the Blitzball Arena (so it seems to me). Further, note that Tidus has no understanding of Summoning when he first meets Yuna. Summoning seems to have been Zanarkand's primary tactic in the Machina War, which suggests some sort of disconnect between Zanarkand and Dream Zanarkand.

There IS a dicsonnect. I would keep in mind

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Summoners would remind the Fayth of the war, and besides remind the Dream Zanarkand is a dream, and for plot reasons would be a hindrance as well. Heck, just loo at OUR cities. Would you recognize Rome (to take an old city) from a thousand years ago? Or from a thousand year in the future? Even if you lived there? There IS a disconnect, but it's there because the Fayth wanted it to be. If Dream Zanarkand was just started off and then given free reign, it'd have changed a whole lot more than lacking Summonners. (Also, the Yevon Dome, wouldn't Yevon have constructed that AFTER the whole mess? And even if he did before, consideirng what he's done, the Fayth would probably not want to remember HIM either)

Really sad in a way. Dream Zanarkand is going nowhere, just like Spira in FF-X. Spira ended up with a future, but Dream Zanarkand, being the Past, has no future and fades.

Sad, yes, but Dream Zanarkand had a future (though probably with limitations imposed by the nature of the Dreaming), as it is clearly in flux. The reason the city fades, along with its populace, is simply that the Summoning that bound it and its citizens to Spira was ended.

A question of how much Flux it was in, and how far it was allowed to stray. The Sphere we see in FFX-2 shows a REAL Zanarkand that looks just like Dream Zanarkand. Dream Zanarkand that is a thousand year older.

But Tidus and Shuying are so different!

Are they?

Consider it's not the CURRENT Shuying we're talking about. He's driven nearly mad after 1000 years of reliving his most desperate memory, and it's up in the air how much he IS Shuyin, and how much just his negative emotions. (Even after reuniting with Lenne, he sounds bitter 'a thousand years, and this is all we get?', and once he DOES release his bitterness, he fades) The Fayth of Zanarkand don't know about that, and can't remember him as that.

It's already been established that "real Shuyin," "Dream Shuyin," and Tidus are all completely separate from and independent of one another. It doesn't matter whether the "current" Shuyin or the pre-war Shuyin was the original template, as even Dream Shuyin would have differed from his Spiran counterpart, and Tidus would have had no connection beyond similarities in appearance and facility. Both the theory I initially proposed and the one Squall later made account for this.

If you're gonna make it so that later 'Dream-citizens' LOOK and FIGHT like actual 'historic citizens' than it would seem very off to me that you go 'Oh, but their personality has NO link at all' Tidus is not built on Shuyin, but I would say he was built on the MEMORIES of Shuyin, and then inserted in Zanarkand.

They MIGHT remember a young man who'd do everything and brave all dangers to save the one he loves, with a penchant for getting angry. I mean, your love is off to fight in a struggle you know will cost her life, so what do you do? You fight your way to Bevelle to get their strongest weapon (so so strong they're afraid to use it, but you ARE desperate) all to save her. That does sound like Tidus. After all, didn't he, in a way, do the same when they killed Yunalesca? Sure, they might doom Spira, but Yuna must be saved.

I think there IS a connection, but Shuyin's circumstances sent him down a darker path, and after he died, stuff went from bad to worse. (TRY to imagine what Tidus would do if Yuna HAD sacrificed herself to 'defeat' Sin and he failed to rescue nher. Add thousand years of instant replay.)

So I would say that there is more of a conenction. HOWEVER, their connection stops the moment Shuyin left Zanarkand. All the stuff about being shot, Tidus would have no way of remembering, even deep in his heart, since he, the recycled memory of Shuyin, only goes up till the point where the Fayth can remember him.

As already established numerous times, it is impossible for there to be any link between Tidus and Shuyin, other than one where Shuyin is, in one way or another, a physical template for Tidus. In any case, the Fayth would not have ever even envisioned Tidus and Yuna having any sort of relationship, as Yuna was not of Dream Zanarkand.

Oh no, not saying any of that. And as I said, the SOUL of Shuyin has NO link at all to Tidus. But the MEMORY of Shuyin, as dreamt by the Fayth, does. And I would say, in more than just 'looks and swordfight stuff'