A problem with the R=U theory.

[rubah]

Like, if you went for the insanity theory, they would've hinted that rinoa's family has had a history of mental illness, or Rinoa would've said something like 'Squall, if I ever lose you I'd go crazy' Or ultimecia would've reacted to her presence in some way instead of ignoring her.

[Sir Bahamut]

Rinoa actually does say on The Ragnarok that she's been feeling schizophrenic lately. Although, it's been a while since I checked, but if that's not it, the implications are the same; the sorceress thing has been driving her a bit 'mad'.

Other hints may be seen, but they all generally have more plausible alternate explanations that do not imply R=U.

[Rand Al'Tor]

Like, if you went for the insanity theory, they would've hinted that rinoa's family has had a history of mental illness, or Rinoa would've said something like 'Squall, if I ever lose you I'd go crazy' Or ultimecia would've reacted to her presence in some way instead of ignoring her.

There is clear mentionings that Sorceresses without knights tend to go evil.

Rinoa explicitely requests that Squall put her down if she go evil.

Squall mentions he'll protect her 'even if she becomes the enemy of the world'

Rinoa expresses the wish that 'time would stop and the moment would last forever'which might just be a general expression, and isn't really exactly what Ulti wants, but seems too much of a coincidence considering ; screwing around with time' is the villain's main idea.

The ending movie, but really, that one's pretty cryptic.

No, obviously the hints aren't as obvious and well... beyong doubt as Squall's parentage. For one, I never thought of R=U until I heard it here, and a replay made me go 'Ooooh, foreshadowing' Heck, it might very well be my own liking for bittersweet endings that influenced me. But when I play the game, I get the feeling that it's giving hints. And hints is proof enough for what I need.

And I'm half curious, half afraid of the 'final decision' If it appears that all the naysayers were right, I'll be dissappointed. I think R=U would be a GOOD twist, and make Ulti more than 'a Mindcontrolling Sorceress from the future'which is pretty damn little. As such, if it is disproven I will accept that it's not canon.

And then I will ignore canon, because I think R=U just makes for a better story.

Makes me wonder BTW. The naysayers. Do you think it would be a GOOD plottwist?

[Sir Bahamut]

Firstly, you should know that there is a very plausible theory on Ultimecia which I find to be just as good as the R=U twist. It basically says that Ultimecia is born a perfectly good sorceress, not born evil. However, since the events of the game will undoubtedly increase peoples fear and hatred of sorceresses, and they will all be waiting for Ultimecia to rise to power(since the events of the game would certainly be written down in history). So it is quite possible and plausible that the people persecuted Ultimecia from birth, essentially driving her to revenge on everyone. Also, she'd know from history that Squall was supposed to kill her(Edea: "So you are the legendary SeeD destined to face me") but would still go back to compress time so as to defy fate. That's a brief summary mind you;if you want the full thing, just ask.

Secondly, I do think R=U would have been quite a good twist, but I cannot see it as feasible based on what the game tells us.

[Rand Al'Tor]

Could ALSO be true (don't think the two are mutually exclusive) as Edea/Ulti speach after killing Deling seems to indicate she's been persecuted. But is the 'sorceresses age'thing the only thing that makes it impossible? (as opposed to 'possible but no reason to believe it?')

[ThePheonix]

About Ultimicia controling Adel:

1. She would have known about the trap.

2. After the trap, if she would have just checked in on Edea about 5 years after the incident, she would have had Ellone almost literaly right under her nose. (As in - trying to controll the other sorceress may have been a good idea)

[Sir Bahamut]

Could ALSO be true (don't think the two are mutually exclusive) as Edea/Ulti speach after killing Deling seems to indicate she's been persecuted.

Certainly, Rinoa might have been driven mad because of this persecution. In fact, that's basically what the theory says(or what it should say, I might add).

But is the 'sorceresses age'thing the only thing that makes it impossible? (as opposed to 'possible but no reason to believe it?')

Yes. All other things like Rinoa and Ultimecia in time compression together, Ultimecia looking different than Rinoa, and stuff like that all have their reasonable counters. However, when we get down to it, Ultimecia lives hundreds of years into the future, so for the theory to be possible, Rinoa must have an extended or infinite lifespan(while she is a sorceress). There has been much dispute about this, but hopefully the Ultimania will make the answer obvious.

1. She would have known about the trap.

Not necessarily. Although it may have been written down in history that Laguna trapped her, I personally doubt that Ultimecia would know, or remember, such a small fact.

2. After the trap, if she would have just checked in on Edea about 5 years after the incident, she would have had Ellone almost literaly right under her nose. (As in - trying to controll the other sorceress may have been a good idea)

But is not that what she basically did? Edea realised what was happening, and had Ellone sent off with the White SeeDs, telling them to stay away from her, and then she let herself be possessed.

[Christmas]

Makes me wonder BTW. The naysayers. Do you think it would be a GOOD plottwist?

Yes, but it will mean that FF VIII will turn out to be a pretty sad story and ppl might not be able to accept the fact that the happy ending they see in the ending FMV is just short lived.

Not necessarily. Although it may have been written down in history that Laguna trapped her, I personally doubt that Ultimecia would know, or remember, such a small fact.

I dun think it is a small fact because for what Laguna did to Adel delayed her plan for ten years if Adel is truly possessed by Ultimecia. And if she did possessed Adel, she will have succeed with her plans without having Squall to stop her ten years ago before the time of Edea which mean she truly defied fate as you mentioned before. Also as mentioned:

(Edea: "So you are the legendary SeeD destined to face me")

It show that she know/remember stuffs that is hindrance to her plans. And I do think how much of hindrance do Laguna's trap cause to her plans.

Also, if Adel is trapped in the Sorceress' memorial, and Ultimecia's consicous is inside her, will she most likely get trapped along as well? Since the machine is strong enough even to affect radio waves.

[Sir Bahamut]

I dun think it is a small fact because for what Laguna did to Adel delayed her plan for ten years if Adel is truly possessed by Ultimecia.

Well, if Ultimecia only knew a little bit about her past, for instance only that she would go to the past and that she was apparently defeated by a 'lengendary SeeD' then this point can be explained. But I agree that if Ultimecia had read a lot of world history, she should know about this.

[quote]And if she did possessed Adel, she will have succeed with her plans without having Squall to stop her ten years ago before the time of Edea which mean she truly defied fate as you mentioned before. [/quite]

She won't succeed in her plans because Laguna traps Adel! THis would naturally be part of her fate too, so even if she possessed Adel, she'd still be fulfilling her destiny.

It show that she know/remember stuffs that is hindrance to her plans. And I do think how much of hindrance do Laguna's trap cause to her plans.

True, but it's impossible to tell exactly how much she knew(see point above).

Also, if Adel is trapped in the Sorceress' memorial, and Ultimecia's consicous is inside her, will she most likely get trapped along as well? Since the machine is strong enough even to affect radio waves.

That's an interesting idea indeed, but it is Adels seal in space which interferes with radio waves, not the Memorial. However, the Memorial would probably set a seal against all ingoing and outgoing signals, which I suppose might actually include Ultimecias conscience. But then again, at that point, there was very little known about Ellones magical powers, so I doubt that Memorial had been equipped to block off even such things as Ellones magic.

Interesting point anyway.

[Rand Al'Tor]

Well, it depends on how 'possession'really works. Could also be that the seals and such just cut off the connection between Adel and Ulti and broke the possession.

[crazybayman]

Well, it depends on how 'possession'really works. Could also be that the seals and such just cut off the connection between Adel and Ulti and broke the possession.

I'd say that's a little more like it. Ultimecia was also able to possess Edea and Rinoa, all while Adel was sealed up. I'd say that means either she was able to get her conscience back to her time, or the link was severed once she was sealed, or at least placed in space.

[Sir Bahamut]

Or, of course, that Ultimecia never possessed Adel to begin with.

[Christmas]

That's an interesting idea indeed, but it is Adels seal in space which interferes with radio waves, not the Memorial. However, the Memorial would probably set a seal against all ingoing and outgoing signals, which I suppose might actually include Ultimecias conscience. But then again, at that point, there was very little known about Ellones magical powers, so I doubt that Memorial had been equipped to block off even such things as Ellones magic.

Actually I mean the seal when I used "machine". But maybe it is a little confusing since to me that is, I see the seal might probably be the machine inside the memorial which they detach it and send it to outer space.

I thought that it will be rather dangerous to transfer Adel from the memorial to other magic sealing machine then into space. Or maybe I missed some part? Correct me if I do.

I'd say that means either she was able to get her conscience back to her time, or the link was severed once she was sealed, or at least placed in space.

Or Adel is never possessed or else Ultimecia's consicous will be trapped along?

Also, I reckon that there really be a good conclusion to this topic like we discussed before........

One example is the highlighted portion which I can said since there is little known, I doubt that Ellone magic won't get block. Since the consicious sending/possessing thing work something like sending signals into other body while the seal block it or seal the signal along with it?

[crazybayman]

Or Adel is never possessed or else Ultimecia's consicous will be trapped along?

Ultimecia's conscience could not have been trapped, because while Adel was sealed away, Ultimecia was able to possess Edea, and then Rinoa. She even possessed Rinoa in order to break Adel's seal.

Right.....maybe Adel wasn't even possessed to begin with....until Ultimecia tried to possess her when she was set free from the seal, when you fight her inside Lunatic Pandora.

[Rand Al'Tor]

Thought on the original subject. Assuming for a moment that Adel WAS Adel, and that she DID look for a successor, it doesn't mean she expects to die in the next century. After all, if we look at Ultimecia, getting killed and not having someone to pass on power to seems to be a rather uncomfortable affair (if it wasn't painful, than why did she pass them up after all) so Adel might want to always keep a 'suitable succesor'ready in case a bunch of heroes want to kill her. And she'd probably also want to take them young, so she can influence them into continuing her reign after she dies, hang the ones that did HER in by their guts and such. Of course, if Sorceresses can become extremely old, she might end up surviving many nsuccessors but hey... they can be handy either way.

So just because Adel searches for a succesor, if she indeed DOES that, doesn't mean old age can take out sorceresses.

Hmm... a thought occured to me. Perhaps Sorceresses don't grow OLDER, but 'less human' as the inherent power transforms them? After all, Adel seems only vaguely human (and pretty male) But THAT is widldly speculating.

Just something to keep in mind. The Sorceress Power isn't just 'whee, I can use magic' it's a fraction of power from a defeated god. So to cross reference to FFX-2.... Everything goes for the Sorceresses! (or was that anything goes?)