niger

[lordblazer]

should the good men do nothing?

In short: yes.

Cloud, we (those who agree with me) aren't moving, and neither are you. You've taken this subject and beaten over and over again. We, the people, choose not to help Africa. None of my money will ever go to fuel a corrupt government. I've asked you how the individual can help, and you have said that there is no way, but we must find a way somehow. You're losing your own argument. You either have no concept of the way the system works or you go above and beyond optimism to the point of lunacy regarding their situation.

I am hardly greedy, not selfish in the sense that you mean it, and would help out quite a bit. You fail to recognize that, and rest on the self-rigtheous supremacy that the people who produce - the strong - the able - the hated (i.e. America and any other free country) should sacrifice itself to a continent that has no way of rising above it.

It's the most pointless argument ever, and I hope that the people that support you don't realize the full extent of what they are supporting; I hope they are just idealistic-beyond-practicality.

Edit: You won't get banned, and if you do I will petition like hell to get you unbanned. You have weak-ass argumetns and tend to resort to name calling, but it's done in a classical flair that's hardly too insulting (for example, rather than calling me a dick, you call me a greedy capitalist, et cetera). So don't worry about it.

Finally someone said it I always wanted to say this.

There are small organizations who go out of there way to help people in countries like Niger,but the demand is just so great that these organizations are overwhlemed by the number of people needing help and their limited resources to help these people with.

[Cloud No.9]

so why then stand back and not provide the resources and money these organisations need to be able to cope so they can help the people that need it?

[lordblazer]

Because a government has to take care of its own and really has very little to spare to these small organizations.Most of these small organizations depend upon donations.

The problem with donating is that a lot of them are scams thus people start to distrust them thus organizations who do good get ignored.

Thus this world is crap blah blah blah you know the whole drill.

[Cloud No.9]

it was more of a question to the people reading this thread and not to the governments who has the g8 meeting and the niger crisis couldn't care less no matter how many millions of people tell them they do.

[lordblazer]

Because its all about money and if your country ain't making any from helpingout another country.Then they won't do it.

[silverpigeon97]

with all due respect, and i am fully supporting countires helping less off ones, our governments are elected to do what is best for their country not someone elses. I know it sounds a bit cold but it is true.

[Madame Adequate]

my ideals are inhuman and do more harm than good? how?

actually we can drop the trade tarrifs. a lovely peaceful method to help.

Yeah, and most of us are with you on that aspect, even if it's because we believe trade tarriffs, subsidies, etc. are inherently wrong.

"But that's how you treat humans - as dogs that you must keep chained to make sure the stronger and faster don't eat more food than the rest." so would you agree with killing the runt of the litter?

The runt still gets his chance. Where have we said otherwise? But nobody else has any obligation to help the runt.

[Cloud No.9]

"But that's how you treat humans - as dogs that you must keep chained to make sure the stronger and faster don't eat more food than the rest."

do we know what that theory is called? it's called the surviva l of the fittest and a little bit of eugenics. and i'm not a big fan of either of them. and we are we to allow these people to die because their countries economy is behind ours? they starve because they're country doesn't have more economic power? is that it? the people of these countries are gonna die because they are the runt of the litter?

[silverpigeon97]

Your only just saying that now. Its been happening for millions of years. The only reason your alive is because one of your ancestors tripped some fat guy when he was being chased by something big and dangerous. Its called nature.

[Cloud No.9]

the rest of us call it genocide and ethnic cleansing. the nazis had a nasty habit of calling the holocaust survival of the fittest.

and is this what it is? we let africans die for what? it's not for food resources for sure. there is enough in this world to not let millions starve and say it's for our own benefit.

[rcabronx]

I am not heartless, nor am I without sympathy for people who are suffering. But as far as helping other countries before helping to fix the problems of your own country to me is unproductive. I would love to be able to help those people in Niger, with every fiber of my being, but many people here do make a point. Wanting to is not enough. Throwing money into different charites, although it helps the immediate problem, will not solve the problem. Say I go ahead and give money to a charity, and the charity goes and provides aid to those living there now. Wonderful that the people there are getting the help, but what about future generations who are going to have the same exact problems, what with plagues and lack of water and the like. Are the more well off countries going to continue to provide aid, as noble as it is, to future generations? Because if that is the case, the way the world is turning right now, all sources of aid will diminish slowly but steadily and surely. Then what becomes of "the rest of the world." Eventually all the nations of the world are going to have to come together, but something like that is certainly not going to happen in my lifetime, or my children's lifetime, or even their children's lifetime. My point in all this is yes, help those who need it, but don't over simplify the magnitude of the problem. If you are in front of me, and you were hungry, I would give you food, but I would also teach you how to prepare your own food, so you wont be hungry tomorrow. Otherwise, what would be the point of my giving you food today, walk away, feel good about it, but you'd be just as hungry tomorrow. That would personally make me sick, so I'd come back and give you more food, and the next day and the next, but eventually I would be without as well... I don't know if I'm expressing my point properly.... In any case, I would much prefer helping, aiding and teaching those in my own community and country before I went abroad. There are starving people in YOUR country too, Cloud, just like there are in mine, and the USA, and South America, and everywhere you look, there are people in need. We have to take responsibility for our own before we are strong enough to help others, in my humble opinion. But I do agree with you that it is a heartbreaking reality, and apathy is very hard to look upon, especially if you have a big heart. But a big heart is not enough.

[Cloud No.9]

there are two types of aid. there is short term aid which right now is whatis required in niger at this very instance. that is the food and water aid. the aid that prevents people from dying tomorrow.

there is longer term aid. aid that is there for the ling term. like hospitals, schools, water supplies, sanitation, farming tools etc. things that will last generations and help people for along time after we have stopped paying for it.

we need to support both types of aid. and as the long term aid becomes more wide spread then the shorter term aid will no longer be required. yes we cannot continue to pay for food all day everyday. we must also pay for the long term stuff and then we can think about letting these people try and stand on their own two feet.

[Teek]

Short-term aid can't exist without long-term aid, unless you plan to rip it from everyone else's hands (which you do). Long-term aid goes far beyond building a hospital. It's establishing a government that recognizes individual rights and allows the African people to help themselves, which is the greatest gift that they can obtain (which also falls along a person's nature).

They cannot exist on hand-outs long, either from our government or theirs. They need to support themselves; once a government is established and people are able to support themselves, if Africa is still doing poorly, I'd be morally against helping them.

[Cloud No.9]

long term aid would actually result in the creation of a democracy anyway. you would cut off the links between the government and people. and if the government isn't ruling anyone then they ain't a government. if someone else is building your schools, wells, hospitals, helping you grow stuff then what is the government there for? why not set up one that does stuff for you? i can't remember what country it was but that happened there. the people just set up their own government and the "ruling government" fell apart.

"once a government is established and people are able to support themselves, if Africa is still doing poorly, I'd be morally against helping them." so hachifusa what in the mean time?

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

No, it wouldn't. You can build all the schools and hospitals you want, but if the despots still hold the guns, they're still in charge. Unless you want us to go in there and militarily take control, there will be no changes in the government. Period.