Bush losing Stem Cell battle

[Zanne]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/07/....ap/index.html

Yet another Stem cell topic for our feeble minds. I'll get quick to the point of where I have a problem with this, and then you guys can discuss.

This is one of the rare times I will agree with Bush. It is in truth that Stem Cell research would be beneficial to the medical world in preventing diseases and providing cures, and Bush's statements against this are that, it is wrong to take human life to save human life, and with it at tax payers dollars.

It is especially true with the second statement of what Bush said. I find it outragous that scientists and doctors want taxpayers to provide cures and such for many diseases, and then once the research for a particular case is completed, pharmacies will go around, take the cure, and sell it off their shelves and make a profit. First, we pay the government to provide us with these cures, and then we ALSO have to buy them? Thats ludicrious!

As for the first statement, that tackles of a more religious background, so I'll keep that area clear if someone else wants it. My mind is open, so discuss your opinions on this

[Gnostic Yevon]

gnostic yevon there made the comment "The problem is that the only reason that we are considering ESC and not other versions of the same thing (on say the gitmo prisoners)"

the gitmo to what she is referring to is where america holds it's terrorist and "illegal fighter" prisoners. they are held without trial or charge for up to 4 years. you might know it as guantanamo bay or camp x-ray. it has a wealth of informationon the techniques of "persuation" used in it to gain intelligence.

gnostic yevon seems to suggest experimenting on these prisoners. which something mengele did.

jospeh mengele was a surgeon in auschwitz. he had little bits of fun taking children and people who were about to be gassed and performing lovely experiments on them instead. he was not a nice man to say the least.

gnostic yevon and mengele seem to share similiar idealogy.

OK did you miss the part where I said that was WRONG? I said the reason that such a thing was wrong is that the embryo is HUMAN, not an animal or anything else. What I said and that you missed is that doing such things to ANY human is wrong. What I was pointing out is that by conviently forgeting that the embryo is human, it becomes possible to consider doing things to them that no one would consider CONSIDERING if the group was different. I was attempting to show that by showing the situation if it were merely a different group of people we were considering experimenting on in the name of "saving human lives".

Actually, your reaction proves that notion correct. We would never consider this for any other group unless we were outright Nazis. We shouldn't. And changing the group we do such a thing to doesn't change the morality of the situation. If it would be wrong to experiment on Gitmo prisoners, Jews, Blacks, Hispanics, Disabled people, the poor, etc. Than it is STILL wrong when you speak of embryos. Human is Human.

In related news, Johnathan Smith did not actually think that the solution to poverty in Ireland was to eat Irish children.

[Zanne]

Forgive me, for I am new to this, but...
I did an essay on stem cell research and cloning, and I feel that to clone someone is wrong, because then we are going to aim for perfect children, perfect people, and everything that the human race is about, is going to be gone.
It is also very risky, to both the person that is cloned, and the clone itself. Stem cell research, as it is vital to cloning obviously, may be good for finding cures, but is it worth sacrificing so many lives repeatedly, if it seems that we cannot yet find the cure?
Not only that, but to bring life into this world, even if it is by cloning, and then perhaps neglecting that person, can have dire consequences. How would someone feel knowing that their sister is their mother? Or that their parents may have given up a child that they made, and in place chose them?
I hope that you can see where I am going with this...

[Raistlin]

I think that comment was absurd - in your twisted way you are saying that humans and animals are the same. While we eat animals, and have for a long time, I am looking mainly at HUMAN life. Even bringing animal life in as a comparison is just-- stupid. Human rights is the issue here... not animal rights.

Yes, so am I. However, I'm defining what exactly makes human life better than other animal life. You're not, and expecting it to be self-evident. It's not.

[Cloud No.9]

gnostic yevon we knew fine well what you meant. your thoughts on torturing theese prisoners is well documented already. this new turn does not suprise me.

[Pant Leg Eater from the Bad World]

wow...

Here are some thoughts I had while reading this thread...


First off, Bipper, are you a vegetarian? are you an animal rights activist(or less of an activist, but with the same beliefs)?


The world is already overpopulated as it is, but in the name of science I would have to say that the testing should be done. Im not going to argue that they have no chance of life or anything like that, because they do, but so what? I would give my life to save millions if I could, hell, I would do it to save one life. a life for a life is good enough for me. But on the same note, I would kill someone to save someone, or lots of someones.

somewhere way back in the thread someone said something about when the USA bombed Japan. I have to say that was one of the stupidest things this country ever did, if we were really pissed enough to kill, we should have just sent assassins to kill the world leaders. I know, its cold, but its is better to kill a few hundred corrupt men and women, than to kill thousands of inocent people.

I said I was not going to argue that the embreos would have no chance of life and I wont. But there are already enough babies being born to satisfy anyone who wants one.

so there... I suppose that should be enough to satisy my urges to say something for now...

oh, by the way, I believe that everyone on death row or serving a life sentace should be used for scientifical research whether or not they like it, being as they gave away their rights when they got caught doing whatever it is they did. either that or they should all be killed immediatly.

[Cloud No.9]

ah yes another fan of mengele. experimenting on prisoners are we? now that's jolly fun. lets torture people for science. yeah cos that's just soooo cool. noone has tried that before.

and so i've worked it out. people. babies are people. i am a person. embreyo's aren't and never will be. maybe thats the thing. it's not about a human link it's about a people link.

[bipper]

First off, Bipper, are you a vegetarian? are you an animal rights activist(or less of an activist, but with the same beliefs)?

Rastilin and IBCrayZ:
No - I love hamburgers. Anyways, I do think that we should respect life. I don't see Animals being on the same level as humans. This is more because I am a christian and have read Genisis. God gives us dominion over animals. But i dont want this thread to turn into a "Your just a dumb christan" or "Animals are people too" thread. Just thought I would clarify. I am in no way a hippie - but there is a balance in life that we should respect.

Ok, lets say that all life is important. Well we need to eat to preserve life right? This means killing animals, vegtables, and fruit seeds. This is for eating. If you say that is wrong then i guess we starve. But to compare apples to oranges and bring this into embryos, I can simply say that we are killing these embryos for a theory - like when you try to make a new resepie - you waste a lot. I guess this mostly balances the equasion expet for on an ethics point of view - which is where the debate is. Eating, and testing are very different though - and no... we should not eat people

Lets just say that I have my reasons for fighting for babies/fetuses/embryos. I will not get into my motivations - I want to keep this thread on the topic.

IBCrayZ: Sounds like your live for self gratification. You even admit that the embryos may live and yet you still dont care. It's very genourous that you would give your life to save millions - but:
A: The science isn't perfect - if you read other posts you will see that labs have actually admited that stem cells are hard to control.
B: Choice. You can make that choice - I also said more on this earlier. If you see embryos as people, and you are not worried to kill off people to your own self gain - that is evil.

OK did you miss the part where I said that was WRONG?

A lot of people against the issue will read a post with a lot of points - and attack one or two points. Cloud No. 9, definatley debates like this.

May i read this concensus? More than one or even two sources are preferable and probably as unbiased as they can be.

Most books, sites, or resources you read on the subject will call the person a Human embryo.

lionx: You do serve some good points, however we had covered most of these earlier as well. I don't think a human can shoose to kill another no matter what stage it is at. The bottom line here really is that ther are a lot of better ways to get stem cells - and labs are saying that embryo stem cells dont even work as well as those that adults, and babie's at birth can supply. It just seems like a god awful waste to throw these embryos away. Weather your for it or not - if there is another, better way - shouldn't we look at that? The only reason embryos are even a topic anymore is because they are cheaper - but so is slave labor. (don't tell me to post references to this i did earlier)

Actually, your reaction proves that notion correct. We would never consider this for any other group unless we were outright Nazis. We shouldn't. And changing the group we do such a thing to doesn't change the morality of the situation. If it would be wrong to experiment on Gitmo prisoners, Jews, Blacks, Hispanics, Disabled people, the poor, etc. Than it is STILL wrong when you speak of embryos. Human is Human.

Very well put. I do agree with your very much. I donot agree with using prisoners who will die though. Don't really want the debate to go that way either though. That would be a nother post.

I almost would like to see a poll made:
do you:
Have children and are for ESC
Do not have children and are for ESC
Have Children and are Agains ESC
Do not have chilren and are against ESC
Do not care either way

I think that would be interesting - but i dont want to do it atm, in risk of thining out the debate. Lets keep it here But just post and tell me your opinions.

Cloud No. 9: People and human are about the same thing. I dont think that you can seriously say that embryos and fetuses are not people. That makes no sence to me.

Sorry if this seems to be incoherant - i am very very tired But the battle rages on and so must I.
Bipper Battles

[Cloud No.9]

i think there is a difference. people can survive on their own. not all human life can. all people have some kind of thought process not all human life does.

[Lionx]

Most books, sites, or resources you read on the subject will call the person a Human embryo.

You know just asking...what else do you sugguest they call it then? A Non-human embryo? O_o

You might not think that its ok to kill another whatever stage but people differ, and thats why no one needs to necessarily abhere to everyone else's standards, if they so choose to do what they want they could. While they could find another way this is currently the most viable way to get most people help efficiently. Money is a prime factor in everything, if we find THE perfect way but not affordable, then its better not finding the way at all. Again your life, or the embryos. Which one will have people crying over the most..? Again life while important to us individually is not that important in the grand scheme(to me). If theres no money or fame most of us wont even advance technologically. So it always has to be about money that makes no difference to this either, its part of everything.

Isnt stem cell also making the embryo LIVE? Just inside another body? If you are afraid it devalues the meaning of life then evaluate yourself, only you are making it worth less.

I think we are just making too huge a deal out of this really.

[Gnostic Yevon]

gnostic yevon we knew fine well what you meant. your thoughts on torturing theese prisoners is well documented already. this new turn does not suprise me.

Cloud 9, you're extremely dense, so I'm going to type this very slowly so that you can understand it.

I
o p p o s e
r e s e a r c h i n g
o n
G i t m o
P r i s o n e r s.

The point, for the THIRD time is that if it would be wrong to do something to one group of people, it would be wrong to do that something to any group of people. If it is wrong to remove the livers from altzheimer's patients (and thus pretty much kill them), it is wrong to do the same thing to ANY OTHER GROUP of people. I oppose researching on ANY human who wasn't given consent to that specific reasearch being done to them, and even then, only when it is not going to injure them. I oppose the harvesting of organs from one group of people without their permission to give to another group of people. I oppose selling people's corpses for research. Something like this

Is this legal? Federal law makes it illegal to buy and sell human body parts. But there are loopholes in the law. Here's how one body parts company -- Opening Lines Inc. -- disguised the trade in a brochure for abortionists: "Turn your patient's decision into something wonderful."

For its buyers, Opening Lines offers "the highest quality, most affordable, freshest tissue prepared to your specifications and delivered in the quantities you need, when you need it."

Eyes and ears go for $75, and brains for $999. An "intact trunk" fetches $500, a whole liver $150. To evade the law's prohibition, body-parts dealers like Opening Lines offer to lease space in the abortion clinic to "perform the harvesting," as well as to "offset [the] clinic's overhead."

Opening Lines further boasted, "Our daily average case volume exceeds 1500 and we serve clinics across the United States."

Kelly kept at her grisly task until something made her reconsider. One day, "a set of twins at 24 weeks gestation was brought to us in a pan. They were both alive. The doctor came back and said, 'Got you some good specimens -- twins.'

"I looked at him and said: 'There's something wrong here. They are moving. I can't do this. This is not in my contract.' I told him I would not be part of taking their lives. So he took a bottle of sterile water and poured it in the pan until the fluid came up over their mouths and noses, letting them drown. I left the room because I could not watch this."

But she did go back and dissect them later. The twins were only the beginning. "It happened again and again. At 16 weeks, all the way up to sometimes even 30 weeks, we had live births come back to us. Then the doctor would either break the neck or take a pair of tongs and beat the fetus until it was dead."

Now if I were to suggest doing this to anyone else "to provide specimens for research" (WHICH JUST SO CLOUD 9 DOESN'T GET CONFUSED, I'M NOT), you'd call me a Nazi, or anything else along the same lines. What I'll never understand is why the fact that these children (at 30 weeks, you're quite able to survive outside the womb) can be legally killed, and those lucky enough to have made the 1 foot or so trip through the birth canal are magically "persons" and have full legal protections. I just don't see that the process of going through a birth canal does anything to change a human from a "product of conception" to a "person".

[bipper]

"
Isnt stem cell also making the embryo LIVE? Just inside another body? "

No. The type of stem cell research that I am against - makes a test tube baby - then kills it off after about 15 days. All for stem cell sake. It is not even the most cost effective. Honestly, I dont see why it is so popular. The most cost effective would be taking em out of donors and prisioners - but the prisoners can make a stank about it. ITs just easier to kill that which cant speak.

Again your life, or the embryos. Which one will have people crying over the most..? Again life while important to us individually is not that important in the grand scheme(to me).

This means that since I am so much cooler than you (jkin of course) in my opinion - that you should be killed for stem cells.

I know that this is all a debate as well. Some might think that shooting your boss is ok - that doesn't make it right. I think that abortion and embryo farming should be illegalized - there is the dabate. The whole leagal root is weather we should give the fetus/embryo/baby/minor rights.


Cloud no. 9: Your taking me in CIRCLES DUDE ! We already coverd this lol.

Gnostic: Sorry bout that - i read your posts - then clouds- made me think you were for the prisoners getting ripped up

As far as that goes - i do belive in a womans right to choose... not to have sex. This goes for men too. If you can't hanle the conciquence - dont do it. I really think that the demining value here is that Sex is fun and cool, but babies arnt...
Bipper

[Cloud No.9]

next person to call me a girl or lady i will make a personal visit and knee-cap.

[bipper]

Lol - sorry I will edit my post Just thought- ugh..
Bipper

[Pant Leg Eater from the Bad World]

First off, Bipper, are you a vegetarian? are you an animal rights activist(or less of an activist, but with the same beliefs)?

Rastilin and IBCrayZ:
No - I love hamburgers. Anyways, I do think that we should respect life. I don't see Animals being on the same level as humans. This is more because I am a christian and have read Genisis. God gives us dominion over animals. But i dont want this thread to turn into a "Your just a dumb christan" or "Animals are people too" thread. Just thought I would clarify. I am in no way a hippie - but there is a balance in life that we should respect.

Ok, lets say that all life is important. Well we need to eat to preserve life right? This means killing animals, vegtables, and fruit seeds. This is for eating. If you say that is wrong then i guess we starve. But to compare apples to oranges and bring this into embryos, I can simply say that we are killing these embryos for a theory - like when you try to make a new resepie - you waste a lot. I guess this mostly balances the equasion expet for on an ethics point of view - which is where the debate is. Eating, and testing are very different though - and no... we should not eat people

Lets just say that I have my reasons for fighting for babies/fetuses/embryos. I will not get into my motivations - I want to keep this thread on the topic.

IBCrayZ: Sounds like your live for self gratification. You even admit that the embryos may live and yet you still dont care. It's very genourous that you would give your life to save millions - but:
A: The science isn't perfect - if you read other posts you will see that labs have actually admited that stem cells are hard to control.
B: Choice. You can make that choice - I also said more on this earlier. If you see embryos as people, and you are not worried to kill off people to your own self gain - that is evil.

OK did you miss the part where I said that was WRONG?

A lot of people against the issue will read a post with a lot of points - and attack one or two points. Cloud No. 9, definatley debates like this.

May i read this concensus? More than one or even two sources are preferable and probably as unbiased as they can be.

Most books, sites, or resources you read on the subject will call the person a Human embryo.

lionx: You do serve some good points, however we had covered most of these earlier as well. I don't think a human can shoose to kill another no matter what stage it is at. The bottom line here really is that ther are a lot of better ways to get stem cells - and labs are saying that embryo stem cells dont even work as well as those that adults, and babie's at birth can supply. It just seems like a god awful waste to throw these embryos away. Weather your for it or not - if there is another, better way - shouldn't we look at that? The only reason embryos are even a topic anymore is because they are cheaper - but so is slave labor. (don't tell me to post references to this i did earlier)

Actually, your reaction proves that notion correct. We would never consider this for any other group unless we were outright Nazis. We shouldn't. And changing the group we do such a thing to doesn't change the morality of the situation. If it would be wrong to experiment on Gitmo prisoners, Jews, Blacks, Hispanics, Disabled people, the poor, etc. Than it is STILL wrong when you speak of embryos. Human is Human.

Very well put. I do agree with your very much. I donot agree with using prisoners who will die though. Don't really want the debate to go that way either though. That would be a nother post.

I almost would like to see a poll made:
do you:
Have children and are for ESC
Do not have children and are for ESC
Have Children and are Agains ESC
Do not have chilren and are against ESC
Do not care either way

I think that would be interesting - but i dont want to do it atm, in risk of thining out the debate. Lets keep it here But just post and tell me your opinions.

Cloud No. 9: People and human are about the same thing. I dont think that you can seriously say that embryos and fetuses are not people. That makes no sence to me.

Sorry if this seems to be incoherant - i am very very tired But the battle rages on and so must I.
Bipper Battles

OK.I agree with what you said in the first paragraph and alot of it in the 2nd. You just sounded like a " oh no, dont shoot the poor deer!" kind of person. but I had to check before I could bring up my next point, which I cant now because it would be irrelevant.

Lets just say that I have my reasons for fighting for babies/fetuses/embryos. I will not get into my motivations - I want to keep this thread on the topic.

Good. You should have reasons and I commend you for standing up for what you believe in.

1. I dont see how I live for self gratification, being as many a human being would do as I would do with life.
2. Youre right. Science isnt perfect. Nothing is perfect. And youre right, there are other possibilities for Stem Cell Research. Adult Stem Cell research is being done and has had good progress. But all options should be looked at. And lets not forget the selling point of ESC, its not that its cheap, its that it can become all cell types. Though ASC has had good progress.
3. I dont see embroys as people, I see them as possible human beings. just like I dont see people and human beings as the samething. humans
are just an advanced lifeform. nothing really special about them except they have an opposable thumb and the capacity to be people. To be civilized. To have emotions and be able to fully understand them. To have developed multiple languages without the help of other beings. To be self-capable.
4. I dont see how it would be my own self-gain. being as I have no disease that could possibly be cured by stem cells as far as I know. I see it as a gain for all humanity, not for me. And I noticed someone else brought up this point prior to me but, if you were in a life/death situation, are you saying you would not kill to stay alive? That every soldier who has had to kill someone else to save themselves, to stay alive, that all of them were evil?

lionx: You do serve some good points, however we had covered most of these earlier as well. I don't think a human can shoose to kill another no matter what stage it is at.

So are you saying that I couldnt not choose to get a gun and kill people at my school, I couldnt. I know you know that is not true, it happens to often, murders. humans choose to kill humans all the time, its an easy choice.

I agree with leaving the prisoner expirementaion for another thread.

And as to your poll, I do not have children and am for ESC, but then again I am only 15.