Bush losing Stem Cell battle

[Pant Leg Eater from the Bad World]

First off, Bipper, are you a vegetarian? are you an animal rights activist(or less of an activist, but with the same beliefs)?

Rastilin and IBCrayZ:
No - I love hamburgers. Anyways, I do think that we should respect life. I don't see Animals being on the same level as humans. This is more because I am a christian and have read Genisis. God gives us dominion over animals. But i dont want this thread to turn into a "Your just a dumb christan" or "Animals are people too" thread. Just thought I would clarify. I am in no way a hippie - but there is a balance in life that we should respect.

Ok, lets say that all life is important. Well we need to eat to preserve life right? This means killing animals, vegtables, and fruit seeds. This is for eating. If you say that is wrong then i guess we starve. But to compare apples to oranges and bring this into embryos, I can simply say that we are killing these embryos for a theory - like when you try to make a new resepie - you waste a lot. I guess this mostly balances the equasion expet for on an ethics point of view - which is where the debate is. Eating, and testing are very different though - and no... we should not eat people

Lets just say that I have my reasons for fighting for babies/fetuses/embryos. I will not get into my motivations - I want to keep this thread on the topic.

IBCrayZ: Sounds like your live for self gratification. You even admit that the embryos may live and yet you still dont care. It's very genourous that you would give your life to save millions - but:
A: The science isn't perfect - if you read other posts you will see that labs have actually admited that stem cells are hard to control.
B: Choice. You can make that choice - I also said more on this earlier. If you see embryos as people, and you are not worried to kill off people to your own self gain - that is evil.

OK did you miss the part where I said that was WRONG?

A lot of people against the issue will read a post with a lot of points - and attack one or two points. Cloud No. 9, definatley debates like this.

May i read this concensus? More than one or even two sources are preferable and probably as unbiased as they can be.

Most books, sites, or resources you read on the subject will call the person a Human embryo.

lionx: You do serve some good points, however we had covered most of these earlier as well. I don't think a human can shoose to kill another no matter what stage it is at. The bottom line here really is that ther are a lot of better ways to get stem cells - and labs are saying that embryo stem cells dont even work as well as those that adults, and babie's at birth can supply. It just seems like a god awful waste to throw these embryos away. Weather your for it or not - if there is another, better way - shouldn't we look at that? The only reason embryos are even a topic anymore is because they are cheaper - but so is slave labor. (don't tell me to post references to this i did earlier)

Actually, your reaction proves that notion correct. We would never consider this for any other group unless we were outright Nazis. We shouldn't. And changing the group we do such a thing to doesn't change the morality of the situation. If it would be wrong to experiment on Gitmo prisoners, Jews, Blacks, Hispanics, Disabled people, the poor, etc. Than it is STILL wrong when you speak of embryos. Human is Human.

Very well put. I do agree with your very much. I donot agree with using prisoners who will die though. Don't really want the debate to go that way either though. That would be a nother post.

I almost would like to see a poll made:
do you:
Have children and are for ESC
Do not have children and are for ESC
Have Children and are Agains ESC
Do not have chilren and are against ESC
Do not care either way

I think that would be interesting - but i dont want to do it atm, in risk of thining out the debate. Lets keep it here But just post and tell me your opinions.

Cloud No. 9: People and human are about the same thing. I dont think that you can seriously say that embryos and fetuses are not people. That makes no sence to me.

Sorry if this seems to be incoherant - i am very very tired But the battle rages on and so must I.
Bipper Battles

OK.I agree with what you said in the first paragraph and alot of it in the 2nd. You just sounded like a " oh no, dont shoot the poor deer!" kind of person. but I had to check before I could bring up my next point, which I cant now because it would be irrelevant.

Lets just say that I have my reasons for fighting for babies/fetuses/embryos. I will not get into my motivations - I want to keep this thread on the topic.

Good. You should have reasons and I commend you for standing up for what you believe in.

1. I dont see how I live for self gratification, being as many a human being would do as I would do with life.
2. Youre right. Science isnt perfect. Nothing is perfect. And youre right, there are other possibilities for Stem Cell Research. Adult Stem Cell research is being done and has had good progress. But all options should be looked at. And lets not forget the selling point of ESC, its not that its cheap, its that it can become all cell types. Though ASC has had good progress.
3. I dont see embroys as people, I see them as possible human beings. just like I dont see people and human beings as the samething. humans
are just an advanced lifeform. nothing really special about them except they have an opposable thumb and the capacity to be people. To be civilized. To have emotions and be able to fully understand them. To have developed multiple languages without the help of other beings. To be self-capable.
4. I dont see how it would be my own self-gain. being as I have no disease that could possibly be cured by stem cells as far as I know. I see it as a gain for all humanity, not for me. And I noticed someone else brought up this point prior to me but, if you were in a life/death situation, are you saying you would not kill to stay alive? That every soldier who has had to kill someone else to save themselves, to stay alive, that all of them were evil?

lionx: You do serve some good points, however we had covered most of these earlier as well. I don't think a human can shoose to kill another no matter what stage it is at.

So are you saying that I couldnt not choose to get a gun and kill people at my school, I couldnt. I know you know that is not true, it happens to often, murders. humans choose to kill humans all the time, its an easy choice.

I agree with leaving the prisoner expirementaion for another thread.

And as to your poll, I do not have children and am for ESC, but then again I am only 15.