Time Compression... Explanation that fits everything

[ThePheonix]

Simple straight-forward time fits almost all of the occurrences in ff8, however, one contradiction exists; time compression is not experienced in previous parts of the game.

I have three explanations that are actually 3 parts of the same explanation:

.1.

- We are supposed to be playing the actual events that happen, not the timeline that has been distorted during time compression.

It would be a short game if it started and then you see the ending Cinematic… The End!

.2.

- As I posted in another thread…


Let me explain with a diagram:
The way that time compression could have happened and not felt (experienced) before events on disk 4...

-let E0 represent events before the time Ultimicia traveled (With Ellone's help)

-let the events of disk 1, 2, 3, and the start of 4 (just before TC) be represented by E1, E2, E3, and E4 respectively.

-let Ea represent the moment in disk 4 when time compression 'starts'

-let Ex represent Ultimicia's time

so normally:

E0.....E1...E2...E3...E4.Ea..........Ex

when time compression begins: (i.e. when Ultimicia casts TC)

E0.....E1...E2...E3...E4.Ea......... Ex
E0.....E1...E2...E3...E4.Ea....... . Ex
E0.....E1...E2...E3...E4.Ea..... . . Ex
So Ultimicia stretches the time towards her and then onto her time.
so eventually

E0.....E1...E2...E3...E4.Ea Ex
such that a connection is created between her time and that of Ea

During this moment, Squall and party are pulled through the link and defeat Ultimicia, and as it all happens in the time of moment Ea, time preceding that moment does not experience TC.

Now the reason why the Squall & party from say...2 days ahead in time of Ea did not go ahead and defeat Ultimicia I cannot clearly explain, unless the section of time being compressed actually begins with Ea and ends after E0 (the time Ultimicia traveled to) and that time is warped onto her own time, leaving everything else intact...
something like this:

..........
E0 .....E1...E2...E3...E4.Ea --> Ex



.3.

- 2 Dimensions of time, and 1-dimentional Time Compression:

-the simplest way to represent 2D time is as follows.

{-} represents an event in time. (Note: events that are directly above one another are the same events in time)

{*} represents a {-} of the actual storyline of events that actually happened to cause the present.

-------------------* (present)
------------------*
-----------------*
----------------*
---------------*
--------------*
-------------*
------------*
-----------*
----------*
---------*
--------*
-------*
------*
-----*
----*
---*
--*
-*
* (past)

So at some time in the past there would be a time of events:

*

Then

-*
*

Then

--*
-*
*

etc.
-Such that every event in the first column is the same event, and the storyline represented by the events {*} are the original events that occurred to bring the future.

-the other sets of events are more like the memories of the events and are usually congruent to the {*} actual events leading up to the present.

-Ellone’s time powers work only in one dimension of time, not two, and therefore cannot change actual past events, only some details that will, however, lead to the same present. (this kind of time magic is’ horizontal’ (when using the previously mentioned visualisation of 2-D time) time magic)

-When Ellone sends Squall into Rinoa’s body that’s in space, she is using ‘vertical’ (also 1-D) time magic (in regard to the same 2-D time model/visualisation). Here she is shaping the present, not altering the past.

-Whether or not Time Compression is a 1-D or 2-D magic is irrelevant, since it is being used and restricted by Ellone’s 1-D time powers.

à When Time Compression is used, it occurs only in 1 Dimension of time, and is the Horizontal type of time magic, and therefore does not change the actual events, and cannot change the occurrences in the storyline of the game before it began at all. Because of this, Time Compression is not experienced earlier in the game. As well, time compression in that one horizontal occurs as theory 2 explains.

-This is a Physics view on Time Compression, and is basically an explanation of # 1

[Sir Bahamut]

Hm, I could say a whole many things to your three suggestions, but I think I'll restrict myself, and rather direct you to the Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ found here:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/game/197343.html

Read the section on Time there. It should clarify a lot. However, a few things I will say:

A time compression spell which literally pulls and drags on time itself does not work in a time where the past cannot be changed(Ellone: "You can't change the past...") because once time de-compresses and everything is back to normal, there would be no way to tell that TC had ever happened. To be more precise about this point, the events in which Squall and Co utilise TC(and all that happens as a result of this, ie. killing Ultimecia) would only last for as long as TC lasts, which makes no sense at all!

Also, if the spell is cast far in the past, there is no real logical reason as to why it is Ultimecias era which acts as some centerpoint for TC. Your 2-D time is also making things more complicated than they need be, although I agree that all of time should be viewed more like a sheet of paper than a line.

But these are only tiny snippets. Please read the FAQ mentioned for a take on time and TC formed from 2 years of debates.

[ThePheonix]

OK, I'll read it when I have the time... maybe tommorow, or the day after that, I only had a very quick overview so far (it's long).

[ThePheonix]

I haven't read all of it yet, but it seems to only consider one horizontal of time (as by the theory proposed in this thread).

And the reason Ellone can't change the past is because she can't alter the present from the past, however, she was able to change a small detail - laguna says that they thought fairies were floating over them to make them stronger, or something of the sort, as a direct effect of Ellone's interference.

[Sir Bahamut]

I haven't read all of it yet, but it seems to only consider one horizontal of time (as by the theory proposed in this thread).

That's the starting point yes, but if you read on, you will find that this line of time is modified to a sheet of personal lines of time instead. Your 2-D time is possible, I'm sure, but it's much more complicated, and thus less desirable.

And the reason Ellone can't change the past is because she can't alter the present from the past, however, she was able to change a small detail - laguna says that they thought fairies were floating over them to make them stronger, or something of the sort, as a direct effect of Ellone's interference.

The reason she can't change the past is because time is set in stone. At least, that's it as far as I'm concerned. In other words, she couldn't change the past, because things always happened like that. This explains your point of the fairies; those fairies were always there, because all of time exist all at once.

Just read it all through, and then direct any questions here.

[Skyblade]

Ooh, goody! Not often I get to involve logic in arguements like these. Ellone can't change the past. Why not? Because the past leads to the present. If she changed the past so that Laguna was there with Raine when she died, she wouldn't have a reason to go back into the past. With no reason to go to the past, Laguna leaves Raine, cycle starts over. The past can't be changed without removing that which changed it. Ergo, no change. Simple as that.

[Sir Bahamut]

Well, it's not as perfectly straight forward as that. SquallOfSeeD(whon you may know from this forum) wrote a section in the mentioned FAQ which provides a framework for a theory in which the past could be changed.

[crazybayman]

OMG U GUYS SHOULD TOTALLY LIKE WATCH BACK TO THE FUTURE LOL.

Edit: sorry....I just had to

[ThePheonix]

As I said, Ellone can't change the past in the present to any degree that her present will be segnificantly changed. It is not the past but the present that is set in stone; amounting to nearly the same thing, with minor diferences.

... I'll get back to reading the rest of the FAQ now...

We should be expecting Future Esthar to come and somehow warp any logic of this discussion; prepare to argue for some part of time being set in stone, or something of the sort...

[Sir Bahamut]

Significantly changed? So you think that the past can be changed, but not in a way which changes the present? In other words, you believe that small changes are possible? I disagree. I see no reason to think that the past cannot be changed, except if it's just a tiny bit. Don't see the logic in that at all. Also, I believe Chaos theory applies here; a butterfly batting their wings can cause hurricanes on the other side of the earth(or time, in this case).

Anyway, I rather believe that distinction between past, present, and future are merely in our heads. But yeah, just read on.

[ThePheonix]

You should remember, though, that this is a game, and what may or may not be true in our world is not necesarily so in the world of FFVIII. Our experiences in our world can be misleading when trying to explain the occurances in the world of FFVIII.

[Skyblade]

You should remember, though, that this is a game, and what may or may not be true in our world is not necesarily so in the world of FFVIII. Our experiences in our world can be misleading when trying to explain the occurances in the world of FFVIII.

Is anyone else really sick of the umbrella excuse "it's just a game"?

[Sir Bahamut]

You should remember, though, that this is a game, and what may or may not be true in our world is not necesarily so in the world of FFVIII. Our experiences in our world can be misleading when trying to explain the occurances in the world of FFVIII.

I realise this. That is why I made special note in the beginning to make it clear that none of the theories posted within were rooted in physics from the real world. Everything in there is based on a combination of what the game tells us in conjunction with logic and common sense. Funnily enough, certainly conclusions reached are similar to the real world(ie. time is relative for instance), but these are similarities reached from wildly different backgrounds.

Now, the use of something like Chaos theory might then seem to make me a bit of a hypocrite, but I merely think that in essence, Chaos theory is nothing but pure logic. Particles interact. Great changes are caused by particles interacting. One single particle may thus easily be the key particle in causing huge change, even if it's just a single particle. It's like the drop which tips the cup, you know?

Is anyone else really sick of the umbrella excuse "it's just a game"?

Well, I believe the phrase should be kept in mind to the extent that FF8 theories should not initially be based on real world physics. But that's all.

[Skyblade]

But using it as an excuse for all the little inconsistancies/unexplored points is so boring!

Where did Squall's wound go?
"It's just a game"

Where did the idea of SeeD come from?
"It's just a game"

Why can you fly through the curtain around Esthar?
"It's just a game"

Why do people just sit there and take turns letting their opponents beat the crud out of them?
"It's just a game"

It's annoying as hell! (Even when it is valid, such as the last one...)

[Christmas]

But using it as an excuse for all the little inconsistancies/unexplored points is so boring!

Where did Squall's wound go?
"It's just a game"

Where did the idea of SeeD come from?
"It's just a game"

Why can you fly through the curtain around Esthar?
"It's just a game"

Why do people just sit there and take turns letting their opponents beat the crud out of them?
"It's just a game"

It's annoying as hell! (Even when it is valid, such as the last one...)

Some of the questions you raised out are still open to discussion and yet to have a conclusion yet but using the reason " it is a game" did/or support ideas which explain some of the inconsistancies of the game.

For example:Why can you fly through the curtain around Esthar?

Because....(pls read the thread yourself...) also to add on that it might be a programming convenience since it is just a game.

It can be used as a point to support your explaination to the inconsistancies.

Some may not really be convincing like Where do the idea of SeeD came from? And the answer is "it is just a game"?

I dun really think it is an excuse or anything but a reminder/point to note when thing get a bit far fetched like :

Where do Squall wound go?

They probably heal him with "Cure" magic(just a deduction but the outcome is Squall is healed or never wounded)
But that is no such thing as "Cure" or magic in this world!!