Greatest Civilisation ever?

[Skystone]

The Byzantines merit a vote for greatest civiliation simply because of their duration as a cohesive power. I can't think of any that lasted longer.

If we count by territory owned, then it's a battle between Russia and China. Well, Russia a few decades ago. Nowadays, with all the new countries breaking away, Russia is losing territory. And, of what they still own, they can hardly be said to "controlling" it. Much of the eastern section of Russia has yet to hear of WW1.

If we count all recorded civilizations, the greatest landholder was the British Empire at its peak. If we include strictly land-based cultures, the Mongol empire was largest (though the Brits still controlled more actual land).

In the modern world, Russia is unquestionably the largest landholder. Its recent loss of territory doesn't matter. And Canada is second. China is merely third.

The stats:
Russia: 17,075,200 sq km
Canada: 9,984,670 sq km
China: 9,596,960 sq km

[udsuna]

In the modern world, Russia is unquestionably the largest landholder. Its recent loss of territory doesn't matter. And Canada is second. China is merely third.

The stats:
Russia: 17,075,200 sq km
Canada: 9,984,670 sq km
Chinia: 9,596,960 sq km

How about we limit to *inhabited* or at least used, territory? The vast tracts of land that have never been home to human life should hardly qualify. And, incidentally, the uninhabited territory has yet to rebel from russia, though at this rate it probably will eventually. As for Canada... same principle. As for China... most of their land has plenty of people. More than enough. TOO MANY!!!

And, yes, the British empire did a masterful job of landgrabbing. But they really didn't keep it all that long. And most of that area never became "british", as they always thought of themselves as members of their colony first, and members of Great Britain second (if at all).

[FluroChoco]

Also, ancient greece also had slavery (an awful lot), and women had no voice or power in society. This really upsets me. If women and men had been equal since, like, the start, then think of all the great thing we would have developed, women only developed equality to the length where they could actively participate in the development of our conglomerated culture in the 1970's, when they were given a fair chance at school, and a fair chance in the workplace.

For every Eienstein, Pythagoras, Ptomely, Bach, Faraday and Da Vinci there could be a female equivalent. Sure there have been a few throughout history but they make a negligible proportion of our scientific development. We could be extremely more advanced than we are now, not only technologically but also socially, if we hade embraced equality (or not allowed inequality to flourish through such constructs as ancient civilisations).

Har! My view of a civilised society is one which embraces public health, welfare and education. This means that people dont starve or die from unnecessary illness (as well as gender and racial equality). Thus, in my opinion, some of the greatest civilizations are Australia, Canada, to an extent Britain and some Eurpoean nations. America, China and Russia fail miserably if you measure Civilisations in their humanity, and their campassion for the common woman/man.

Perhaps a great civilisation is tribal life. All are cared for by the group and equality reigns. There are many inhumane aspects of tribal life, the weak and sick are abandoned at birth or later to death. With indigenous Australian Aboriginies, a mother bearing twins left one to die at she could not carry or feed to childeren simeltaneously, hindering nomadic lifestyle. And low life expectancies due to lackof modern medicine. But equality strong. There is no rich-poor gap, no poverty, no corruption, little crime or abuse. Is a good example of a socialist/communist society THAT WORKED for thousands of years.

Note that most of this is based on Australian Aboriginal tribal lifestyle as this is what i am most knowledgable of, i assume similar lifestyles for Native American indians. I am not familiar with tribal lifestles in Europe's History.

btw Ghengis Khan was Mongolian, not Chinese but he conquered China (as well as alot more)

[Erased]

btw Ghengis Khan was Mongolian, not Chinese but he conquered China (as well as alot more)

Oh, yeah. I forgot about that. *remembers* conquered China, wasn't Chinese.

Udsuna, you bring up a lot of really good points. However, I don't think we can simply rule out (as 'ancient' civilizations):
Greece - Once again, mythology. Most modern fiction has some sort of mythology in it.
Rome - Again, Catholocism
Egypt - Paper I'd probably say mythology for them, too - but as for what they have as God of _______, Greece and Egypt have the same ideas. Also, the Great Pyramids
China - Was, and still is, a country with a LOT of land. Falling under the Alexander the Great definition of "Greatest".
Aztecs - credited for the discovery of chocolate. XD
Israel - Christianity.

There's more, but that's to name a few.
Also, to restate what I said before (slightly changed to sound slightly more intelligent):

I don't think it's possible to select one....humans are backstabbing, lying, non-altruistic, etc. sort of beings.

[Resha]

[q=Bipper]All civilizations have grown and learned a great deal from each other.[/q]

[udsuna]

Yeah, but your average tribesman, in any part of the world, dies by 40. And why doesn't America qualify under your concept of "welfare"... we dedicate a greater amount of our resources (both total, and in percentage of total production as well) than the rest of the world, combined. As far as charity goes, we certainly are unrivalled. Shouldn't that count for something?

You count *mythology* as "greatness"? They were good at making up stories, so what? They didn't do nearly the job of recording history as so literate a culture should have. Nor did they make any attempt at mass education, though the rich certainly had all they could hope for.

And as for catholicism... I can honestly say I believe the world would be a better place if it never existed. Four major crusades, and untold thousands of dead in the Inquisitions. Yeah, the catholic heritage has all the "greatness" of Nazi Germany.

Egypt has a legitimate run at "great". The pyramids (and paper... and glass, too). However, they, too, were fond of slavery.

Yes, the Aztecs (or one of their subjucated neighbors) developed chocolate, and for that I thank them. But blood-soaked rituals of gory death kinda counter that theory.

Uh... Israel didn't develop christianity. Jesus could be given credit, but he didn't want people to do anything but reform Judaism. All credit (and blame) goes to a few Apostles who decided to ignore their "Lord and Savior" and do things their own way.

[Erased]

QUOTE]You count *mythology* as "greatness"? They were good at making up stories, so what?[/QUOTE]

I'm quite glad most final fantasy's have good stories. And isn't final fantasy great? mythology=story=great. Greek's are great.... (Stupoid people give us better stories anyway... >.>) however, education is good - if it's done right. Seriously, mass education can be bad.

And as for catholicism... I can honestly say I believe the world would be a better place if it never existed. Four major crusades, and untold thousands of dead in the Inquisitions. Yeah, the catholic heritage has all the "greatness" of Nazi Germany.

Well, yeah - I myself am atheist. But really, one of - if not the most popular religion in the US is Catholocism. Nazi Germany was great. In a really, really bad way. Plus, weren't all those Jews dying for their country? (Errm... sorry, that was pretty mean. I don't mean to offend anyone, either.)

Egypt... However, they, too, were fond of slavery

Slavery isn't really all that bad. It's just how it's carried out that's bad. Work without out pay isn't so bad - Come on, what's a video game?

But blood-soaked rituals of gory death kinda counter that theory.

I'd definitely have to agree with you there.

Uh... Israel didn't develop christianity. Jesus could be given credit, but he didn't want people to do anything but reform Judaism. All credit (and blame) goes to a few Apostles who decided to ignore their "Lord and Savior" and do things their own way.

Ok, fine - replace Christianity with Jesus Christ -_-

I still think, that while civilization is bad, ancient civs have a good run for 'greatest civilization'.

[udsuna]

QUOTE]

Uh... Israel didn't develop christianity. Jesus could be given credit, but he didn't want people to do anything but reform Judaism. All credit (and blame) goes to a few Apostles who decided to ignore their "Lord and Savior" and do things their own way.

Ok, fine - replace Christianity with Jesus Christ -_-

Actually, there is no reason what-so-ever to believe that Jesus' mother lived in Israel. She and her new husband went on a little trip before she had her baby. For all we know, they could have lived anywhere in the Arabic world. And since little kid Jesus was already discussing theology by the age of 5, we can't give the local education system much credit, either.

[Wuggly Blight]

There is alot of slavery thrown in history that actually was not there, for example the Pyrmids, Its known that farmers in the wet season whenfarming was not possible went to work on the pyrmids, and had access to a form of doctor.

[udsuna]

Uh... no one here said anything about using slaves to make pyramids. Honestly, I don't think the egyptians would allow them to touch the holy and sacred monument tombs of their rulers. Even to build them. But egypt was still quite fond of using slaves.

Ironically, slavery appears to have been invented in Africa.

[Madame Adequate]

To be fair to the Aztec, Incan, Mayan, and similar nations - their sacrificing is not as barbaric as it seems at first glance. Consider; they were sacrificing to appease and please the most powerful beings they could concieve of, who governed every aspect of their lives, and who's fickleness or whimsy could mean tens of thousands of deaths, or even the subjugation of the culture should a war go badly. They sacrificed Human lives because Human lives were, by far, the most valuable thing they had to give. Now I'm not saying they had an enlightened viewpoint, but you can see where they're coming from. In my eyes their flaw was the belief in these beings in the first place, not what they did to appease the beings.

[udsuna]

Ok, that, I'll grant you. Don't really think it makes much difference in the long run. Although they did invent the most accurate calender system ever produced by human hands. We have better, now, to be sure... but only because our computers did it for us.

[lordblazer]

Yeah, but your average tribesman, in any part of the world, dies by 40. And why doesn't America qualify under your concept of "welfare"... we dedicate a greater amount of our resources (both total, and in percentage of total production as well) than the rest of the world, combined. As far as charity goes, we certainly are unrivalled. Shouldn't that count for something?

You count *mythology* as "greatness"? They were good at making up stories, so what? They didn't do nearly the job of recording history as so literate a culture should have. Nor did they make any attempt at mass education, though the rich certainly had all they could hope for.

And as for catholicism... I can honestly say I believe the world would be a better place if it never existed. Four major crusades, and untold thousands of dead in the Inquisitions. Yeah, the catholic heritage has all the "greatness" of Nazi Germany.

Egypt has a legitimate run at "great". The pyramids (and paper... and glass, too). However, they, too, were fond of slavery.

Yes, the Aztecs (or one of their subjucated neighbors) developed chocolate, and for that I thank them. But blood-soaked rituals of gory death kinda counter that theory.

Uh... Israel didn't develop christianity. Jesus could be given credit, but he didn't want people to do anything but reform Judaism. All credit (and blame) goes to a few Apostles who decided to ignore their "Lord and Savior" and do things their own way.

I thought the average 4th world person lived to be only 30 and their teeth rot out by 12.

In the modern world, Russia is unquestionably the largest landholder. Its recent loss of territory doesn't matter. And Canada is second. China is merely third.

The stats:
Russia: 17,075,200 sq km
Canada: 9,984,670 sq km
Chinia: 9,596,960 sq km

How about we limit to *inhabited* or at least used, territory? The vast tracts of land that have never been home to human life should hardly qualify. And, incidentally, the uninhabited territory has yet to rebel from russia, though at this rate it probably will eventually. As for Canada... same principle. As for China... most of their land has plenty of people. More than enough. TOO MANY!!!

And, yes, the British empire did a masterful job of landgrabbing. But they really didn't keep it all that long. And most of that area never became "british", as they always thought of themselves as members of their colony first, and members of Great Britain second (if at all).

Thats were all the prisoners go lol XD Siberria a paradise one arth. Pepole lvie their but very few. Heck their are towns in Russia and cities in Russia that aren't even on our maps.

[udsuna]

I thought the average 4th world person lived to be only 30 and their teeth rot out by 12.

Thats were all the prisoners go lol XD Siberria a paradise one arth. Pepole lvie their but very few. Heck their are towns in Russia and cities in Russia that aren't even on our maps.

Well, you do see that in third-world hellholes. But, usually, nomad tribes take pretty good care of themselves. Living off the land is appearantly much healthier than using the streets as a combination playground/livingroom/sewage disposal system.

And I know there's populations in those chunks of Russia. But we don't count our reservation Natives as parts of the US, Canada doesn't count it's Inuit tribes, and Russia shouldn't be allowed to count people who don't even know the name of the country they're living in (because it's been that long since they've met outsiders).

[lordblazer]

In areas liek Brazil. The tribesman their have to fight maloria and theirs a lot of them that have literally hidden villages. So oyu know humanitarian aid can't come to them.

lol Maloria is wiping them out literally.