Greatest Civilisation ever?

[Wuggly Blight]

There are many anicent nations that really accomplished alot, the romans for instance had aquaducts, heated floors and many such things, the egyptions, the greeks are still remembered.
And just because America uses "free" in every sentance does not make it so, it may shock you but we all dont cower in corners hating freedom and being shut up by government. We do have free press, most of europe does. no ifs, no buts, we do. deal with it. The BBC is just one media that is linked to the government, even in america government tv is influced by the government, public media is free to write what it wants, thats why you see "Blair is a failure" on the paper every damn week. Also shockingly enough europe does not chew bones in a savage corner, we do have fundemental rights, I really want to know how you get these idea that America is the only andmost free of all, its not. thats arrogence. Anyway, back to the topic im going with 3 people, the ancient greeks, romans, and the Old Eqyption Kingdom.

[Rusty]

I've always loved Genghis Khan, I'm going to say his Empire.

[Teek]

And just because America uses "free" in every sentance does not make it so, it may shock you but we all dont cower in corners hating freedom and being shut up by government. We do have free press, most of europe does. no ifs, no buts, we do. deal with it. The BBC is just one media that is linked to the government, even in america government tv is influced by the government, public media is free to write what it wants, thats why you see "Blair is a failure" on the paper every damn week. Also shockingly enough europe does not chew bones in a savage corner, we do have fundemental rights, I really want to know how you get these idea that America is the only andmost free of all, its not. thats arrogence.

America has more economic freedoms, which is the uncontested fact. We are not a welfare state. "No ifs, no buts, we do. Deal with it".

[Wuggly Blight]

I would like to see proof of these facts.

[Teek]

Well, the fact that money isn't ripped from our hands to support a medical system, or that industries aren't at the mercy of the government profit-wise, (as they are in the UK). State intervention infringes on individual freedoms. The individual should not be forced to rely on some "parental" government in order to feed them. Not to mention state-run programs generally suck (do look at something socialized we do have here: our educational system) compared to individually-run businesses, which are more efficient and, ironically, better for the people. The taxes that are present in these countries are so much that they tax the wealthy a higher percentage than the common man (which is another one of those "slaps in the face" because the government is taking their money by force and funding it on things that the individual may not even have to use).

Edit: While I recognize we aren't yet Socialist America (thank God) I do have to concede that America's ideals and America's current situation doesn't always run the same course. I wasn't painting Europe as some medieval area, but quite frankly America is freer in general, and being freer, I stay here. I hate the usual catch-all phrase Europeans have for people who are pro-American: "Patriot", used as an insult. I love America because it is the best country in the world, and I would not love it as much nor stay here if other countries were to become freer. We have faults (our foreign policy is our biggest) but I'll be damned if I'm going to jump head-first into some altruist ideal that, unfortunately, the rest of western civilization (and the Democrats here) are trying to set up.

[Wuggly Blight]

Im glad my money is ripped from my hands so everyone can have free healthcare whenever they need it. Just because yoru against nation health does not mean its a breech of freedom. My Grandad has Lung Cancer, he doesnt have to pay a penny, he can have treatment without finacial problems.

Edit: You really need to travel, there is a world outside.

[Teek]

At the expense of everyone else. My grandpa had surgery recently, too, and while we helped him a bit, he also paid insurance for it. I think that's far better. It's a breach in freedom because the entire people have to pay for your grandad. Why doesn't he pay for it?

Edit: lol more european insults

[Wuggly Blight]

Just because you dont like it, most people dothats why we have it, its there for everyone if they need it or not, just because you dont like it does not make it evil.

[Teek]

I see your reasoning, and indeed, it's not a breach of freedom just because I arbitarily hate it. But it's my reasons for hating it. The whole basis of the American character (I am a Thomas Jefferson/Alexander Hamilton fanboy, holla) is that the government has no right to its citizens. It lets them free to live, and only steps in to protect individual rights. National health care is a nice safety net for (a) lazy people, (b) irresponsible people, and, least likely (c) people who could use a little help. However, it's done by ripping the money from everyone's hands. It makes people poorer. I'm a healthy, eighteen-year-old guy - I don't pay medical insurance. I could. I don't want to. It's my choice. Freedom is based off of choice. You're right in that the UK is arguably the next freest country (this is debatable) in terms of both civil and economic freedoms, but that welfare state is a bit too daunting. I'd rather stay in a country (in the meantime) that recognizes economic freedom a bit more, and isn't embarrased becuase that's considered "ultra-conservative" to the rest of the world. If freedom is conservative, then damn it, I'm one of them. Give me liberty or give me death.

[Wuggly Blight]

This obession with "where freer then thou!" is pointless, how can you argue someone is better then the other or what they do makes them better? its arrogent, it works for us, to go on and say "Yes. but were more free!" Is really childish. There has been many great nations before, and and there will be in the future, they will consider themselves better, but its a perspective not a fact and to keep arguinga perspective as a fact is cringing.

As usual I link to http://www.vexen.co.uk/USA/hateamerica.html#Patriotism there Patriotism & Self Righteousness section is a intresting read thats applicable here.

Edit: I could argue, why have a police? give everyone a gun and if your killed in a burglary its yourown fault.

[Teek]

It is not pointless. Which one of us is being the mindless nationalist, again? I want to live where it's freer. It's not "arrogent". America is freer than the rest of the world - fact. I live here. I'm not saying that America is paradise, and stop painting me to be a god-damned mindless American. God, I HATE European arrogance.

Edit: I would argue that that is anarchy, and the police force is a legitimate function of government, because it's the protection of indvidual rights.

[Wuggly Blight]

America is NOT freer then the rest of the world, thats not even a word.

[Teek]

free
adj. fre·er, fre·est

And yeah, it is. When I explained how, you just called me a damn patriot. Shall I explain it again?

[Wuggly Blight]

never said patriot, dont make up my argument for me please I can do it myself, maybe you need to read posts? And Free is a word, Freer is not.

[Teek]

As usual I link to http://www.vexen.co.uk/USA/hateamerica.html#Patriotism there Patriotism & Self Righteousness section is a intresting read thats applicable here.

Damn close, I guess.

And freer is a form of free. Check your dictionary. I mean this seriously: maybe it's only in American English. It's a proper word.