Whew...now she's gone, my riddle will last forever, since she was the only one that was likely to solve it, the wee hottie
Whew...now she's gone, my riddle will last forever, since she was the only one that was likely to solve it, the wee hottie
But now what is she going to do around my flat?She was so excited about this thing.
It's kind of amusing that this riddle has given me more encouragement to play FFIX than, well, anything or anyone else has before. I might actually give it a shot just so I can have a stab at this thing.
...probably not, but oh well.
Bow before the mighty Javoo!
At this moment she'll probably be tearing down your flat in a frustrated rage at the evil mindgames she is forced to endure
It would indeed be fun if you started playing the game and came up with the answer, Bob...
If I found the answer, I think Lenna would probably slit my throat in my sleep and then claim it as her own. Or just slit my throat in my sleep. Or just beat me up. Or something.Originally Posted by Thingfish
At this moment she'll probably be tearing down your flat in a frustrated rage at the evil mindgames she is forced to endure
It would indeed be fun if you started playing the game and came up with the answer, Bob...
Bow before the mighty Javoo!
What is this, MSN messenger or a riddle topic? Less talk, more analysis!
I was looking into the last verse again. Firstly, after refreshing my Shakespearean expressions, I have a much clearer insight into the two first lines there. I was misreading things, thinking that the conscience itself was 'twixt', when it should read more along these lines:
"Between a caught conscience and more relative grounds,
all tears and woe be in our presence past."
In other words, twixt comes in front of two different 'things'. So translating this line again, I'd venture to say it's something like this:
Regardless of what reason you have, be it a more idealistic moral one(ie. the conscience) or be it for reasons not so idealistic and full(ie. relative grounds), what we want is for our troubles to be gone with.
Is that close? I'm sure it must be closer in any case.
Now, for the literrary reference, I've also had another breakthrough, which makes me seem quite blind. Let's take a look at the quote from Hamlet:
Hamlet: I'll have grounds
More relative than this, The play's the thing
Wherein I'll catch the conscience of the King.
I never noticed that he says he will catch the conscience of the King! Catch the conscience! Conscience caught! So I'm ditching the Thomas More reference(although the line I looked at has a curious resemblance to the riddle line: "Commenc'd twixt conscience and my frailer life, ...").
Now, the setting in which this stated is after the ghost has encouraged Hamlet to revenge himself on Claudius, but he needs more proof, since the ghost is all he has to back his revenge on! Remember that Claudius killed Hamlets father, thus usurping the throne(oooh, the connections dig ever deeper!), so Hamlet wanted revenge. However, as mentioned, he wished for Claudius to be perceived as having deserved it, freeing Hamlet of charges of treason. Now, there's a play being put up(hmm, connection to the Tantalus play? sounds likely to me!), and Hamlet decides to have them include a murder scene which is actually a re-enactment of Claudius murder of Hamlets father! He then asks Horatio to look at the Kings/Claudius reactions when this scene is played, so that they can both agree on his guilt, undermine his status, and thus free him up to be killed by Hamlet.
But what does all this mean for the riddle? It might serve to correct my previous take on the line into something like this:
"Between solid evidence and more weak, not so solid reasons(relative grounds), all we want is for out problems/woe to go away".
The connection may be closer, but I cannot say much more at the moment. One thing I can say though, and that is that this is getting very interesting! Looks like you really made a network of deep references in this riddle, Thingfish! I can't wait to unlock it!
EDIT: Made a few edits here and there, so skim through it again just in case, Thingfish!
Great to see you going into such detail, Sir.B! At last, a fellow Thespian! Your ideas are indeed taking shape, but have not yet got the gist of the matter that is required. The second line of that verse may serve to instruct you further.
You are certainly in that I have a network of very deep references woven into the fabric of this riddle, and it is very interesting to me to see how you go about unravelling them!
Out of curiosity more than anything, are there any more logic clues in this thing?
Stuff like...
could be seen as something to do with a letter (or letters) being absent from "anterior regard" yet present in "interregnum" - in such a case, u and m. The letters in those two phrases/words just seemed extremely similar.In anterior regard, quite absent,
Yet present, attending interregnum
These are the dumb little things I notice when actually bothering to read through the riddle for the first time. I learned me some new words today, I did.
Bow before the mighty Javoo!
No, no more logic puzzles like that, I'm afraid
I wish.
Well, good luck to everyone.
Bow before the mighty Javoo!
It's been quite some time since I actively participated in this riddle, but I think I'm going to try and get involved again. For the moment, I'm simply going to try to build on Sir B.'s comments on the fifth verse.
Based on TF's response to the matter of Hamlet, I believe that The Murder of Gonzago may be relevant to understanding the verse. There are a number of startling parallels between the Mousetrap and I want to Be Your Canary, some of which include:
-overall framework (play within a play vs. play within a game)
-death of royalty/nobility within the plays (Cornelia/Gonzago) vs. death of royalty in story at large (elder Hamlet/Gertrude/Claudius/Hamlet contrasting with Garnet's father/Brahne)
-in both Hamlet and FFIX, the plays are recurring diversions that set in motion critical events
I could list dozens more, but it's really unnecessary (unless one of the parallels I didn't list would prove somehow crucial).
(I'll get to where this is going in a bit)
Now, Sir B. has already reworded the first line as "Between a conscience caught and more relative grounds."
Deciphered so, the allusion to Shakespeare (many of the great tragedies would fit here, but we'll stick to Hamlet based on the previous evidence) seems stronger. Relative morality is, after all, an important theme in Hamlet. Much of Hamlet's fatal hesitance stems from his confusion regarding the Ghost's demand. The very lines in the second soliloquy proceeding Sir B.'s famous quote are...
As this is the case, I think the first line might have a more literal meaning than has been suggested thus far. I'm hesitant to push that reading, given the obscurity of the answer, but I think it might in somw way be relevant.
That being said, something about the second line jumps out at me. It seems as though the answer can, thorughout the riddle, be construed as the speaker (mine/my/me). Yet in this line, we see use of "our." While this could be some sort of aspect of royal address (given what's been analyzed in this verse thus far, and the additional word "presence"), I feel it might be something different. Unfortunately, I'm not reading this clearly enough at the moment to decipher it. It may be obvious.
It's important, though, to view the second line as a continuation of the first. In that case, that which is "between" "conscience" and "more relative grounds" may be desirable here.
The third line is confusing. If I continue to look to allusion, I suppose it could parallel Hamlet's return to Denmark after the written incident with the pirates. The fourth line is really baffling, so I'll stay clear of it for the moment.
That's what I have for now. No guess as to the actual answer. Hopefully someone can find something of use in my ramblings.
Very interesting thoughts. I was also puzzled at the mention of "our" in the second line there, but like you, I cannot see anything obvious at the moment. Thingfish said the second line would help though, so I'll put more focus on that in further analysis.
A few things I should point out though:
1) It is unlikely that the entire last verse is a Shakespeare reference, so your inability to find anything in the last two lines probably stems from the fact that there isn't anything to find in the first place. I may be wrong here(Thingfish, this is where you settle the doubts
2) Looking at the original quote, a quite literal interpretation of what is between caught conscience and more relative grounds is "the play's the thing", or simply 'the play'. I reckon this is too literal though, but I thought I'd throw it out anyway.
Again, very interesting. Glad to see someone else helping me too!
Indeed great to see someone else participating with such detail in this riddle. Glad to welcome you back, masamune!
Sir.B : I need not settle every doubt as soon as you have it. It is not for me to solve this riddle, but for all of you...Doubts are the riddlemaker's friend
Sorry for not doing any more today. Pretty much straight after school and dinner I went to see a quite outstanding performance of King Lear. Now I definitely see why they call it Shakespeares most blackest play! Very tragic stuff indeed.
Was it in Norwegian?
Back to school, eh? Very tragic indeed!
No, all in English, by a travelling troupe of british actors actually.
And yeah, school is pretty tragic too, but I don't suspect a full workload quite yet. Not until next week at least.
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