Thingfish's Riddle

[Necronopticous]

The old thread was getting incredibly long, so here is a fresh one.

The current riddle going on is from thingfish and reads:

---

Paragon of a mute usurper, I.
To Occident and Orient adjunct.
Mine avocation, dearth to pacify,
By rubicund umbrage nigh-on defunct.

O, keen watchman to mine own, falter not,
To vouchsafe designs most astronomic.
Misplaced pursuit doth leave much truth forgot,
Affinity only one may mimic.

In anterior regard, quite absent,
Yet present, attending interregnum.
Contrary to self, mine heir apparent,
Abide, thou dost, foremost, and in tandem.

Confused, the vulgar see vengeful death's course,
Heaven's flute scourged, even focus slaughtered.
Yet displace determiner from this source,
A riotous assembly remembered.

Twixt conscience caught and more relative grounds,
All tears and woe be in our presence past.
At helm of craft, portentous death knell sounds.
Recurrent pause, wilt thou begun at last?

Is't a 'What'? Tis that thou thinkest of me?
Is't a 'Who'? Thrice shalt thou deceived be...

EDIT: Okay, since this is its own thread now, take as long as you like.

EDIT BY BoB: Please see the post made by Lenna a few posts down from here BEFORE ANSWERING. Please also do your best to back up your guesses with detail as to what made you come up with the answer.

[Thingfish]

Erm...thanks, I think, Necro I'll at least put in a link to the previous thread so people can look at the musings on my riddle up to this point : http://www.eyesonff.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49010 (from page 19 onwards).

[Mercen-X]

:shoot::twak:

Adding to the rules for this particular riddle. The answer is VERY OBSCURE. You will not know the name of the answer if you can think of it on the spot. DO NOT POST UNWARRANTED GUESSES THAT WASTE TIME AND SPACE. THANK YOU.

[Lenna]

Adding to what Mercen-X said.

The answer is obscure yes, but the person you are looking for has a FULL name yes, first and second name.

Although, when you meet this person you will not find out the name of them from that person themselves. You will need to search for their "watchman" who Thingfish stated in the previous thread as the person who tells you their full name.

The answer is someone who does not have many lines in the game, it has been stated as possibly 1 or 2 lines. You will have to travel to find this person.

And last but not least, the person we are looking for is alive, in flesh and blood. As some people have asked "is this person dead with a saying left behind etc". No, this person is someone you do meet in person in the game. Although it's "heir" has been pointed out (if I remember correctly) as a memento or item (possibly a statue or a diary). I'm not quite sure.

Those are the main clues to the Riddle, if I have missed any out please feel free to add

For Newbies to this thread: Please read the thread before if you wish to see if one of your answers has already been said.

If you think you are dead certain you know the answer just by reading the riddle, please do not post it unless you have checked the previous posts as we have had some newbies constantly coming out with the same answers such as Necron, Ozma etc. These may be characters that aren't recognisable first off but they are not as obscure as the character we are looking for. Random guessing has already been put aside as there has been too much of it. We are now all just trying to figure out the riddle bit by bit, trying to understand each part so we can get this riddle solved.

Good luck with the riddle everyone <3

[Karl]

hilda? cid's wife?

[Llanowar]

CAN U PPL NOT READ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It says this is an Obscure person in the game....Hilda isnt even close to obscure. I mean honestly ppl lets give thingfish SOME credit here its not quite THAT easy.

[Mercen-X]

Okay Llan, have a cool-pops, fresh from the freezer. Karl is obviously mentally challenged. Cut him a bit of slack.





. . . Is it Vivi?

[Thingfish]

Thanks to LoonyBob for making this into my own topic!

I've no doubt someone can post a large synopsis of what they have analysed correctly for this riddle, and maybe the wrong answers list they had been keeping

As I've mentioned before, I'll not bother responding to obvious random guesses that give no reason why they are linked to the riddle at all. If you give good reasoning, then I'll obviously respond, though.

[brother's bigger brother]

garland

[Lenna]

[q=Loony BoB]EDIT BY BoB: Please see the post made by Lenna a few posts down from here BEFORE ANSWERING. Please also do your best to back up your guesses with detail as to what made you come up with the answer.[/q]

Edit: Before BoB rudely took over the keyboard while I was typing. There is a LONG list of wrong answers, I'll do that now BUT, PLEASE PLEASE do not guess anyone that has A NAME. I have already stated that this person does have a full name, forename and surname. So use common sense to realise that "Garland",
"Hilda" or anyone with ONE name is not going to be the answer.

Also remember that the person we are looking for, DOES NOT HAVE THEIR ORIGINAL NAME WHEN WE MEET THEM!.


Originally Posted by Destai:
Terra, Memoria & Amarant

Originally Posted by Boris no no:
Summoners.... Eiko, Garnet & wall of faces in Terra

Originally Posted by Ultimate99997:
Choco.

Originally Posted by Llanowar:
Garland, Mayor of Dali, Puck, Alexandrian Soldier Britany & Necron, Alice

Originally Posted by abrojtm:
Queen Brahne, Ragtime Mouse, Garnets voice, Taharka, Black Waltz No 1, Silver Dragon, Erin, Ipsen, Twins Shannon and Sharon, Pluto Knights, Hal, Frederick Ash, Donnegan, Claire, Taurus, Stellazzio, Neptune, IIFA Tree, Mist & Avon

Originally Posted by Lenna:
The Synthesiser in Lindblum, Nymph, Masked Man, Morrid, Alexander / Eidolon, Bunce and Lucella, Gon Card Freak & Ozma

Originally Posted by nik0tine:
'Transition Zone' between Gaia and Terra, blind burmecian soldier & Lich

Originally Posted by My name is... something..?:
The Genomes that go to BMV in Disc 4

Originally Posted by masamune1600:
King Leo, Cornelia, Prince Shnneider, Mikoto & Marilith

Originally Posted by TurkSlayer:
Gizmaluke

Originally Posted by SilverPhoenix42:
Garnet's father

Originally Posted by Maya:
Sir Fratley, Real Garnet, Red Mage, The great mother tree, Hades & Garnet´s real mother

Originally Posted by PhoenixAsh:
Moogle & Vivi's grandad.

Originally Posted by Mercen-X:
Chocobo Island.

Originally Posted by oww my gastric bypass!:
Marcus

Originally Posted by Old Manus:
Eggmiester & Dragoos

Originally Posted by Hroth:
Pandemonium, Baku, Beatrix & Steiner

Originally Posted by Takara:
Hilda & Tantarian

Originally Posted by Zidane x Auron:
Moguo & Mene

Originally Posted by rcabronx:
Qu, Lowell Bridges & Synthesist's son

Originally Posted by .:the chocobo master:.:
Stilzkin

Originally Posted by Weimar Pluto Knight VII:
NPC in Alexandria, Dante the signmaker,
black mage that you talk to on the forgotten continent,
Ashley, Father from Treno who talks to his son about card games, Mary, Gatz, Gogo in Daguerro

Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan:
Monty, Alleyway Jack, or Gilgamesh

Originally Posted by Medigodoom:
David Heavenguard, Fat Chocobo

Originally Posted by Aidan:
Invincible

Originally Posted by G SpOtZ:
quale



Thingfish Hints

[q=Thingfish]
Bold text: If only I had a place to call home.
Italic text: Gysahl Greens

"Is't a 'What'? Tis that thou thinkest of me?
Is't a 'Who'? Thrice shalt thou deceived be..."
What is this asking for?

Only slightly related to chocobos, but not the Black Mage Village.

The section on being deceived is not actually a major clue to solving the riddle, so you need not concentrate on it so much.

it's neither, nor is it to do with Chocobo Paradise, Mognet Central, or the Black mages themselves rather than the black mage village

it's already been established the answer is a 'who', not a 'what'.

I had originally said that the answer has a couple of lines in the game, so it's not simply restricted to only one line.

The 'in tandem' section does have to do with the number two!

The usurping is a little more figurative that literal in this riddle though...

There is indeed a reference to a type of tree in this riddle, but it is not to do with the 'rubicund umbrage' line, nor has it anything to do with the Iifa Tree...

"Watchman to mine own" refers to the one person who speak's 'my' (the answer's) full name (mine own).

The 'interregnum' line is both figurative and literal at the same time, but is not to do with the authority transferred to Dagger.

the meaning of 'abide' here is 'exist'

there is no reference to any other FF game in this.

The reference to a tree is very convoluted so you'd need to work out a few other things before getting to that

'Rubicund umbrage' can stand for red shadow, and that idea is indeed involved here.

if you unravel the two lines :

"Mine avocation, dearth to pacify,
By rubicund umbrage nigh-on defunct."

into more modern structure, you would have something like :

"My avocation, which is to pacify dearth, is caused to be nigh-on defunct by rubicund umbrage."

Because this riddle is written in iambic pentameter, it is often necessary to drop words such as 'is', 'are', 'the' etc to fit in with the decasyllabic structure.

You must all remember some things in the riddle are only tenuously linked in order to misdirect you, so, no, Black Waltzes and Morrid are incorrect, and I've added before that the phrase "If only I had a place to call home" is said by Zidane to Garland, so that line is not related to the music in this riddle, although it's an interesting notion which I'd not thought of.

This is more to do with an heir inheriting something intangible...

The heir is metaphysical in the sense that it is immaterial, but it has nothing to do with the supernatural sense of that word.

I would consider him a person, and moogle and black mages too. Character is maybe a better word that person, and that can therefore mean both playable and non-playable characters, but would disclude monsters, places and ships etc.

"By rubicund umbrage nigh-on defunct" means "nigh-on defunct caused by rubicund umbrage".

"Mine" means "My" in this type of Olde English, and only comes before a vowel. If the next word were to begin with a consonant, one would use "My".

"Heaven's flute" is the one being scourged .

Heaven's Flute is indeed in reference not to the character itself but to something else, however, not to Madain Sari, Alexander or Cleyra. The character is indeed seen in different places in the game. Zidane's line about wanting a place to call home does not directly pertain to the answer having the same longing.

[q=Thingfish][q=Mercen-X]
The word "usurper" is being used to describe someone taking the place of something wrongfully or illegally, right?
[/q]

'illegally' is too strong in this context. It is more that the answer has been caused to take over something from another person, wrongfully taking credit for something/taking up position in a domain which is actually that of another...
[/q]

The riddle can be analysed on many levels, one being superficial where you will indeed only find the interpretation things like dictionary.com and thesaurus.com can give when you look for direct meanings of terms, but there is also one that has intensely to do with classic literature, history, media, wordplay and so on, whilst at the same time linking events in the game to things in the history of the real world. Everything pertains simultaneously to the game and the real world

You would indeed need to search to find this character, and you could see them speak, although that would likely not help you in solving the riddle, as you still might not know it is that person doing the talking.

You are right about me able to make riddle point at things around the character, but the majority of the riddle points directly at this character, albeit under a very cryptic guise. The riddle itself even tells you the exact name of the answer!

Rubicund umbrage does not refer to fire and is not exactly a metaphor either.

In verse 2, the first two lines are connected to third one, but not the last one, so the last one is not a continuation.

Being 'adjunct' to the east and west need not necessarily mean travelling there, but it could

The answer is a single person, not a family, an animal or anything like that.

As for 'in anterior regard', it does not mean 'in retrospect', and that line can (and must) indeed be interpreted in the basic way you suggest, Sir. B, but it also, as you surmise, has deeper meaning. The idea of 'not there' comes into play as well, and you can indeed incorporate the third and fourth lines of this verse into this idea as well, as it is the heir to the answer that abides and is the answer's 'presence', contrary to it being the answer itself.

'heir' here is not necessarily a successor, more a thing present in the stead of the explicit answer

there is a much deeper meaning behind the lines.

The 'heir' does not have any lines in the game, and is inanimate. The answer is indeed alive, however

It is not the answer and the heir that are in tandem, but rather part of the heir. Being foremost and in tandem is indeed concerned with the location of the heir, but not in relation to the answer.

Tandem is naturally to do with certain things being positioned next to one another, but not the act of positioning. The heir is not doing more than one job at once, and is not a machine.

Contrary here would refer more to being 'unlike' (i.e. in a different state to) the answer, e.g. "unlike the answer, the heir abides..." Indeed, the answer is not easily noticed, as you might have guessed from the length of guessing on this riddle. The heir is fairly easily noticed, however, but not easily recognised as being connected to the answer.

The part 'O, keen watchman...' etc is more a plea to do that which you said, but yes, you are correct in those ideas about it. It is not the watchman who can get sidetracked or miss out on much truth, but rather the gameplayer. This is a warning to the player Not sure what you mean by 'the shrouded line', though.

The last line of the third verse is not directed at the gameplayer.

The answer does indeed appear in more than one place but I don't believe it appears on all discs. The answer is an NPC who is named. I said it has a couple of lines. However, its lines are only on one disc, you cannot speak to it later on, even though it does appear.

there is something special about this character

the answer's real name is mentioned once in the game

Vulgar does indeed refer to the common masses in a way, but this line, and the following one, both are really an enigma hidden inside a riddle inside a mystery

'Vengeful death' does not have to do with the 'defunct' section, nor does the scourging and slaughtering.

Indeed, heaven's flute does not refer to a flute. It is more of a metaphor for something else in the game. I hadn't thought about this line referring to an in-game background tune, but I suppose it could Well thought of! Hehe.

The section about the determiner is not about someone in charge, a leader, but rather in the grammatical sense of the term. The riotous assembly does not refer to people.

One real world reference does indeed find itself in this verse. The others appear in the 1st and 5th verses, and the one regarding modern media is in another verse.

[q=Thingfish][q=Sir Bahamut]
Thingfish: Does the last line tell us anything about how to crack the puzzle? Presumably it must have something to do with it, and it doesn't seem to have any obvious translation, unless the one I suggested a few days ago was in fact correct.[/q]

The last line of that verse, you mean? Well, yes, it does.
[/q]

Well, the first two lines do mean something in a superficial sense, but naturally only things the 'vulgar' (riddlers who do not go deeply into the meanings of the riddle) would come up with. The other two lines refer to the first two lines and the way to go about working out the puzzle.

The portentous death knell sounds wasn't meant to refer at all to the 'nigh-on defunct' line, but I suppose it could.

At least not recognisable by their real, full name, but they are recognisable by the other name you see them as. It is, however, the real, full name I require as an answer. Getting the name they are shown to go by won't be enough, but it would give you a good idea about where to look.

the craft can be construed at the 'heir'.

The use of 'begun' is indeed the Olde English and should be construed as 'will you be begun', or, in modern parlance, 'will you have begun'.

I don't believe I've mentioned whether the name by which they can be seen has both or merely one...

It's already established that some other character says the answer's real name. It is not on an item or sign etc

The answer does indeed have a proper forename and surname and not a nickname, but gameplayers will most likely not know them, so would refer to the character, if they noticed it, as something else. The character is also referred to by this other name in the game, but the answer we are looking for is their full real name

I'll not bother answering random guesses from now on. *smiles sweetly at Thingfish :P*
[/q]


Puzzle.

[q=Thingfish]Confused, the vulgar see vengeful death's course,
Heaven's flute scourged, even focus slaughtered.

Look at the two lines more closely, and after you've worked how the puzzle within them, which is unfortunately very, very difficult, only then remove the 'the'.
the puzzle has to do with the actual letters.
(We have to arrange the letters)

working out the first stage of the puzzle of those two lines won't tell you anything about the name of the answer. That's the hard part about the second stage

[/q]
In these two lines there is also some sort of puzzle as Thingfish stated. If we can figure out what this puzzle is, we'd have passed one part where it'll make it easier to find out the answer. Although, not as easy as people may think. There is different stages as TF said. Once we have managed to figure out that puzzle, we'll be in the 3rd stage.


For any future guesses, please give us your reasoning as to why you made that choice too!

[Thingfish]

I'm very flattered you would spend so much time to write that out, Lenna, and very proud of you for doing so : )

Just out of interest, my text file of details explaining the answer to the riddle is about 2-3 times as long as that post!

[Lenna]

I'm very flattered you would spend so much time to write that out, Lenna, and very proud of you for doing so : )

Just out of interest, my text file of details explaining the answer to the riddle is about 2-3 times as long as that post!

Hehe :P well maybe someday soon we might actually get to see that text file, (after we've answered correctly that is)

And as I've said to many of my friends before, once I get into something I dedicate myself to it. Regardless of how much time it takes me to do things I'll do it. lol I have alot of patience when it comes to what I love, and at the moment this is one thing I'm enjoying and quite happy to spend my time doing. As well as helping everyone in here out. Not many people have actually gone through all the posts to do such a thing before, so if someone hasn't done it before, why sit around and wait for it? I just decided I'd do it because I have the patience to sit and do it so yeah :P

[Thingfish]

Well done, you dedicated thing, you

[Lenna]

Thank you *smiles proudly*

[Sir Bahamut]

Nice going Lenna. After dinner, I will find my analysis of the verses so far, and post that, before continuing with the final verse.

By the way Thingfish, if I/we figure out the last verse to the extent of which we understand the preceeding verses, will that form a good enough basis for us to figure out the answer? Or is it crucial that we solve the real world references and any eventual 'deeper meaning's first? Obviously, I'd want to solve as much as possible before finding the answer, and that would obviously make it more easy, I just want to know this anyway...