what do you think of this lady?

[Raistlin]

If you don't see the difference between protesting a continued war and holding a Klan rally then you have some serious issues. I know both you guys do, and you're just using rhetoric to try to shoot down my argument.

All of you make it sound like protest is any easy act taken up by opportunists. What does Cindy Sheehan have to gain out of this? Why do you think she or anyone would take up such a protest under false pretenses? It takes a lot more balls to actually go out and protest, especially as one person, than it does to write crap on the internet.

Her protest has become larger than one woman's loss of her son. It's tapped deep into the growing anxiety of both the war and the inept execution of it by our leaders.

So, because her actions have potential results which you consider good - despite her questionable reasons - it is good?

No, I'm not using "rhetoric" to shoot down your argument; I'm using logic. Just because peaceful protest is protected by the Constitution doesn't mean that if someone does it, they should be applauded for it. Protesting a war because you think the war is wrong is good. Protesting the war solely because you lost someone in it is murky - I'm sure her son would not want her to do that.

So really, I'm not saying she's a bad person or anything. I'm just saying I don't know enough to proclaim that she's good, and that her statements lead me to question her reasons for protesting.

[eestlinc]

So you're saying that her newfound opposition to the war based (as far as we know) on the fact that her son died in it is questionable and meaningless?

[Raistlin]

No, not meaningless. Merely makes me want to question her reasons - not just dismiss or accept them entirely at face-value.

EDIT: Basically, I'd want to find out all of the facts about her before making a decision about her - for or against.

[eestlinc]

fair enough, although it seems pretty plausible to me that someone who first supported the war might start questioning the real value of the continued fight after losing a son. Obviously you can't be too shocked when your son dies fighting a war, but you'd at least like the war to have been worth it. WWII for example was pretty clearly worth it. Iraq, not so much, especially since the entire debacle is almost certainly headed for failure regardless of what we do at this point.

I think a lot of people at first supported the war for various patriotic and moral reasons, but as the costs (human and monetary) continue to rise and the apparent accomplishment continues to diminish many of these people are reëvaluating their stances.

[nik0tine]

A) Conceded. What's your point? All that will be in vain if some other power-hungry loon ends up in charge.

This is, more than likely, going to happen regardless. The only difference will be that the 'power hungry loon' will be sucking America's dick. If we pull out, that won't happen. Oh dear.

Think this. If they did not have oil, would we be there? No. It is about the oil.

If Iraq didn't have oil we would not be there. That is the truth. However, it isn't about the oil. It's about establishing a permanent military presence in what will become an extremely contested region. This war, and the wars to come, are about preserving our role as the sole world superpower, not about cheap gas.

What else are we in there for then?

See above.

To break up the civil war? To end the war on terror? Nah those were all excuses just to get in there.

The reason that any goverment gives to justify thier war is, and always will be, complete bs. Morality does not exist in war, and therefore any moral justification for war is a smokescreen.

She just wanted to go talk to the President, and then when he wouldn't see her she decided to stay put.

As far as I know, the president did see her, and she didn't get what she wanted, so she continued to camp out. This just makes her seem whiney, and she should quit, because it's making the anti war mindset look whiney.

So, because her actions have potential results which you consider good - despite her questionable reasons - it is good?

What are her questionable reasons?

[Cloud No.9]

iraq and afghanistan both share a border with what other country? iran. there wasn't a good country to launch a ground assualt from before. now we have two angles of attack and a few air bases.

[Raistlin]

What are her questionable reasons?

I don't know her reasons - that's why they're questionable.

[bipper]

great points there cloud - Never seen it from that angle before. An Iran invasion...

I still think that she is doing th right thing. As for people dissaproving of her for blemishing her son's dignity- I can't even think of a good word to use. I think that is a a very narrow minded, and easy thing to say. Its like if your brother(or someone very close) went over we would all prolly support them. When someone close to you is ripped out of this world; it will always hit you and will quite possibly change you and/or your opinions on a certain subject. I do not know this ladies whole story, but I do not think she is wrong in any form of the word.

Even when you watch a movie and, as some end, the self-sacraficial protagonists lays his life down for the greater good - yes you see it as noble from a subjective third person view of things. Place youself in as the protaginists friend, or love and then rethink your stance. Self sacraficial is the ultimate selfish and selfless act.

Bipper

[Madame Adequate]

great points there cloud - Never seen it from that angle before. An Iran invasion...

I still think that she is doing th right thing. As for people dissaproving of her for blemishing her son's dignity- I can't even think of a good word to use. I think that is a a very narrow minded, and easy thing to say. Its like if your brother(or someone very close) went over we would all prolly support them. When someone close to you is ripped out of this world; it will always hit you and will quite possibly change you and/or your opinions on a certain subject. I do not know this ladies whole story, but I do not think she is wrong in any form of the word.

Even when you watch a movie and, as some end, the self-sacraficial protagonists lays his life down for the greater good - yes you see it as noble from a subjective third person view of things. Place youself in as the protaginists friend, or love and then rethink your stance. Self sacraficial is the ultimate selfish and selfless act.

Bipper

Selfish and selfless?

That aside, I see where you are coming from. And it comes down to the individual in question. If an individual is in a position where they can risk their lives for the safety of others, or they can ensure their own safety but put others at more risk, who is to choose what? I wouldn't fault someone who chose themselves over others. I'd laud someone who put others before themselves. The point is, it's their choice to make; this guy made that choice through joining the army. I applaud and respect what he did, and what all the members of the coalitions armed forces are doing. I'm sorry for all those that have died, and I hope their families can find peace with it. But putting myself in her shoes doesn't lead me to any other conclusions - it was his choice to make. The emotions I'd feel, sure, they'd demand a reason, because that's what Humans do when faced with grief. That doesn't actually change the facts of the situation though, and frankly I'd probably blame the people who murdered my son because of their abhorrent philosophies.

[bipper]

Selfish and selfless?

Aye, Self sacrifice is an oxymoronic action.

I also question her venting at Bush, as it was her son's choice and cause. This, however is her choice and cause. If it was the people whom directly killed her son she was mad at then yeah, grab a gun and swim on over to Iraq. She evidenly lost faith in the war and the way things were run after her son's death. I don't blame her as the media and many people hold this belief. (not saying its wrong in any way) This is more than likeley what angered her over the fact that her sone was killed by the opposing army.



Bipper

[Asorie]

I think it's pathetic that this only becomes an issue because someone's CHYYYYYUUUULD died. It exemplifies the breederism of this country that the only relationship that matters is the bond of a parent to a child, and the thousands of others who have died in our meaningless un-war "military/police actions" are simply less important because their friends and lovers can't possibly miss them as much as this woman misses her son.

But, hey, this makes a better story than some poor guy whose best friend never came home from Iraq, or a woman whose fiance was killed. It makes a better story than the Iraqi families who have lost many members to our idiotic "regime change".

I hope that Sheehan goes home and that a caravan of shattered Iraqi families camps out on Bush's lawn, instead, perhaps accompanied by the minorities from this country who are lied to and strong-armed into the military right out of high school. Those people loved their kids every bit as much as she loved hers, but not everyone can afford to take that much time off work or travel that extensively to protest the everyday injustices they experience at the hands of our greedy imperialist mockery of a democratic republic government.

And because after reading some threads in this forum I completely expect to hear wailing that I'm being an "OMG antiAmerican@!111!one1!!", please remember that holding an opinion that is contrary to mainstream does not automatically make one a foaming-at-the-mouth-tinfoil-hat-wearing-flag-burning conspiracy theorist holed up in a liberal shantytown with armed pot-smoking feminist communist guerillas. I have family members and friends in the military and have done a bit more homework in looking at our foreign policy than just watching a Michael Moore movie.

[DocFrance]

And because after reading some threads in this forum I completely expect to hear wailing that I'm being an "OMG antiAmerican@!111!one1!!", please remember that holding an opinion that is contrary to mainstream does not automatically make one a foaming-at-the-mouth-tinfoil-hat-wearing-flag-burning conspiracy theorist holed up in a liberal shantytown with armed pot-smoking feminist communist guerillas. I have family members and friends in the military and have done a bit more homework in looking at our foreign policy than just watching a Michael Moore movie.

I'm cool with that, as long as you don't automatically think of me as a rabid-bible-thumping-convict-killing-book-burning war monger holed up in a conservative mansion with armed homophobic fascist storm-troopers

Can't we all just get along?

[Asorie]

Nah. Besides which, I'm for the death penalty in many cases, which doesn't endear me to the other far-lefters, let me tell you. And you simply don't have enough power to be part of the truly evil segment of the right, as much as I completely disagree with you on the "war".

[eestlinc]

I hope that Sheehan goes home and that a caravan of shattered Iraqi families camps out on Bush's lawn, instead, perhaps accompanied by the minorities from this country who are lied to and strong-armed into the military right out of high school.

Yes! But that would possibly invade upon Bush's super-rich silver spoon dream world bubble. It would be too reality-based.