What is the deal with Cloud and Tifa

[cookieface]

The text among the game quotes is interpretation, that's all it can be. it's clear that even the quotes themselves don't specify nearly that much.

it's like:
==========================
guy1:"hahaha, I like spinach!"

guy2:"you didnt like it last year"

here we see guy1 remembering the time when his brother didn't eat the spinach because a polka dot dog flew in and licked it. it was a sunny spring day, and the birds were chirping.

this is what this quote says, pay no attention to the fact that that is never actually specified in the quote, nor in the theoretical story.
=============================

I could put up my own version (though I don't see the need for quotes). And maybe I will later, but I don't want to piss ppl off

edit: ^ that was to abominatrix

[cookieface]

masamune, why didn't we ever see the clarifying scene or specific description of cloud escaping hojo's lab, tatoo-less, and zack being left behind to his doom?

that would have been an awesome scene.

we never saw it, because what you're describing is conjecture.

you are picking and choosing quotes as if they are proof of what's said in the entire game. the characters say A LOT of things. as clear as you claim that your statements were clearly said, I could in the same way say that it was clearly said that clone cloud's memories came from tifa's consciousness. I won't put up quotes, since I don't have them at hand, but you probably know what I'm talking about. If not, I can put them up, screenshots even. I'll stay up playing to that part if I have no saves there handy

[TheAbominatrix]

There are, however, logical conclusions to be made from the facts provided in the game. If they game doesnt come right out and say it and thus that makes it all b.s. to you, that's fine. We're providing you with the evidence in the game and conclusions for that. If you dont believe in it, fine, but this is the common conclusion.

And the need for quotes was stated above. I didnt write it, Squall of SeeD did, so I was quoting him.

[cookieface]

There are, however, logical conclusions to be made from the facts provided in the game. If they game doesnt come right out and say it and thus that makes it all b.s. to you, that's fine. We're providing you with the evidence in the game and conclusions for that. If you dont believe in it, fine, but this is the common conclusion.

I know, but that's the thing. The fact that they are logical conclusions is arguable, in my opinion. I can very much do the same as masamune did, and SeeD, make a quote laden article describing my fairly different take on it. And it wouldn't be any less logical, just considering a different perspective. I don't think I want to do that though, unless people really want me to. I really don't just want to antagonize anyone when they are certain something is false.

And the need for quotes was stated above. I didnt write it, Squall of SeeD did, so I was quoting him.

Yes I know, I was only replying to the quote, not personally

[Masamune·1600]

masamune, why didn't we ever see the clarifying scene or specific description of cloud escaping hojo's lab, tatoo-less, and zack being left behind to his doom?

that would have been an awesome scene.

we never saw it, because what you're describing is conjecture.

you are picking and choosing quotes as if they are proof of what's said in the entire game. the characters say A LOT of things. as clear as you claim that your statements were clearly said, I could in the same way say that it was clearly said that clone cloud's memories came from tifa's consciousness. I won't put up quotes, since I don't have them at hand, but you probably know what I'm talking about. If not, I can put them up, screenshots even. I'll stay up playing to that part if I have no saves there handy

Are you serious? The "basement flashback" I repeatedly refer to shows exactly how Zack and Cloud escaped. You seem to be very confused, as Cloud (barely conscious as a result of the JENOVA therapy) only escaped through Zack's help.

In short, the flashback shows Zack escaping (and helping Cloud to escape as well). It then goes on to show the two of them riding away in the back of a yellow truck driven by an old man. It becomes fairly clear that Cloud is barely conscious. Among the topics Zack discusses are a plan for the two of them to become mercenaries (hence, why Cloud thinks of himself as a mercenary at the beginning of the game. Just outside Midgar, however, the Shinra pursuit catches up. Zack is killed while trying to resist; Cloud is left alone as he is in no apparent state to do anything.

Cloud manages to drag himself to Midgar, where Tifa finds him at the Train Station. There, Cloud first vocalizes his now confused take on the events of the past.

Returning to the basement of the Shinra Mansion on Disc 3 will allow you to view this scene. If you've never seen it (and it doesn't seem that you have), then you've missed arguably the most important piece of plot-clarifying information.

Between my explanation and Squall's quoted essay, there shouldn't be anything confusing regarding the matter.

[bipper]

That flash back is not standard on the game. It is kinda hidden. He very well may have missed it.

The only "proof" you are gonna get on anything that is left for interpetation is from the staff themselves. The blank spaces left for us to fill in are one bonus aspect of a great game. Al great things have legacy, and leave you wanting more. FF7 did that better than any other final fantasy to date.

I was just laying what I believed down, and as I said, do what you want with it. I never said I had any proof or what notl just what I inturpeted from my experiences with a little outside influence.


Bipper

[cookieface]

Ok, so I said that wrong, you do see the black haired guy strolling off with Cloud. Yet they say nothing of your point about what Cloud (and Tifa) actually is or was or became, or whatever. That's my only point. Were the fireworks over and he just casually went out? Was that even the real cloud still? he says nothing, he was blank, while the other guy seemed normal. What happened before that? And didn't Tifa get cut down too? And what's with the mentioning of 'Tifa having made "CLONE" cloud's memories'?? Guess that's just one of dozens of things said that mean nothing, I suppose. The only stuff that means something is what doesn't clash with our interpretation.

That black haired guy getting wasted explains nothing of what was being done to them, nor what happened to Cloud, it's just up for interpretation in a big way. Just more of Cloud acting crazy and explaining nothing.

But still, the questions remain un-substantiated.

What I'm basically saying is that a lot of what I've heard people say are possibilities, but details at that level are never specified in the game. JENOVA and the ancients are never specifically defined. In other words, as long as it doesn't deny the actual, vague stuff that is said and done in the actual game, anything could be the truth. That leaves a wide enough window.

My take on it is this: Cloud did know Tifa as a kid, and that's why he tried to save her life when he was a guard, and they did do something to him. But he technically did die from Sephiroth's sword. And possibly so did Tifa, or at least she survived by the same factor of cloud's. In other words, Cloud's body was re-created with JENOVA and his memory was discarded, yet somehow, at least in some limited way, got reintroduced to it by the presence of Tifa in the same factor, most likely through contact with the lifestream since it was in mako reactors. But the memory was in a dream state, much like how you dream of real people while asleep, it's not actually them, but they are to you. That would also explain his zack memories. JENOVA was a rogue physical entity of the ancients who had long ascended to a higher plane of existence that can't really be defined, but the existence of that plane was discernable to those in it's path by means of mako and the lifestream. But anyways, my point is, that I think cloud technically died, then a cloud was "born" out of memories in the lifestream. Either that, or Tifa was, or also. Or maybe there is no difference.
Seems like a possiblity. How does any of this go against what is in the game, and yet it's so different from other explanations?

[Masamune·1600]

To understand what happened concerning Cloud, you basically need to incorporate three critical events. The first is the Kalm flashback, the second is the Lifestream sequence, and the third is the basement flashback. When the plot is examined with all three of these pivotal instances taken into account, the correct concept presents itself.

The Kalm flashback gives a basic framework to the Nibelheim disaster. It's incorrect, given that Cloud essentially replaces Zack, but it covers most of the events. SOLDIER is called in and deals with the monsters; Hojo's incredibly unethical experimentation comes to light; Sephiroth becomes partially aware of his origins, and goes on a destructive rampage. Cloud (in reality Zack, although the player isn't aware of that at this early stage in the game) confronts Sephiroth, and there the memory ends.

The Lifestream sequence clarifies what actually happened, as well as explores why Cloud was susceptible to Sephiroth's manipulation. We explore different aspects of Cloud's psyche in attempting to bring out his true self; we see him somewhat shut out as a child, blame himself for an injury Tifa suffers, and leave to try to join SOLDIER to become stronger...for Tifa. We later see parts of the Nibelheim disaster as it actually occurred; the SOLDIER member beside Sephiroth has black hair; this is Zack, not Cloud. We actually see a grunt soldier remove his helmet; he has blond hair, and is addressed in the flashback as "Cloud."
Events run their course, and Cloud the grunt soldier makes his way to the reactor. There, Zack and Tifa are already wounded. Zack tells Cloud to "kill Sephiroth;" Cloud picks up Zack's Buster Sword and attacks the legendary warrior. He then goes to check on Tifa, fulfilling the promise he made the night before he left for Midgar. In the mean time, the slightly wounded Sephiroth had gone further into the reactor and emerged with the head of JENOVA. Cloud pursues, is stabbed, and hurls Sephiroth into the depths of the reactor.

The basement flashback was briefly described in my previous post.

Your theories concerning Cloud and Tifa are directly contradicted by the game, especially as concerns Tifa. The reason I cited the letter by Zangan (which you may or may not have read) was to show exactly how Tifa was removed from the reactor. Not only was she cared for by Zangan, but this also makes it impossible for Hojo to have conducted any sort of JENOVA-related experimentation upon her. If JENOVA is your explanation for her survival, then your theory reaches a permanent impasse.

The game also contradicts the concept that Cloud died. He was experimented upon by Hojo, meaning his physical and living body was present. Beyond that, the entire point of the Lifestream incident was to show that Cloud was the individual Tifa knew as a child, not some figment constructed from vibrant JENOVA. Tifa goes so far as to explicitly state that the event delves into Cloud's subconscious, which is clearly his own. Further, this utterly contradicts established plot points regarding Advent Children. Advent Children SpoilerIn the movie, Cloud is known to suffer from a condition known as Geostigma, which is basically the internal conflict between a Gaian's Spirit Energy and JENOVA cells. If Cloud was built from nothing but JENOVA, then it would be impossible for him to have Geostigma.

In any case, Cloud specifically states what happened after the Lifestream incident ends.

(Aboard the Highwind, immediately after the conclusion of the Lifestream sequence.)

Cloud: I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone
Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when
creating members of SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to
Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells...... For
better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with
Jenova Reunion. But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing. The
combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will and my own weakness are
what created me. Everyone knew that. I'm...... Cloud. ......the master of my own
illusionary world. But I can't remain trapped in an illusion any more...... I'm
going to live my life without pretending.

The whole point of dialogue citation (which bothered you in both mine and Squall's essays) is that it directly incorporates evidence from the game. The dialogue I (as well as in Squall's case) cited was no random assortment of lines; it was specifically used to convey ideas present in the game. The creators had an intent when forming the plot, and dialogue and similar evidence is a means to convey that idea. If you discard what is intentionally presented in the game, you discard the plot. It's not impossible for your theory to correspond to an alternate plot; it's just impossible as concerns the plot of FFVII, which was the point of this entire discussion.

[cookieface]

no it is ok, i've been through this before. but anyways, 3 points in the game eliminate various other events and dialogue throughout the game. that's the reason why there's no use in quoting in my case.

I saw all of the game when I first played it years ago, playing it now, the main idea was the same now as what I remembered. I tend to focus on what is said as a whole in relation to the truth. And I don't think I was stupid and young either. I played FFVi before this one, and I was even younger, and I got that story perfectly. But anways, I'm one of those people that accept how open-ended the VII story is, others aren't and that's fine by me since I don't always necessarily consider an open-ended story to be a bad thing

It's like [FFVI SPOILER] saying for certain who Clyde/Shadow was in relation to Relm in FFVI. It's not defined no matter what anyone says.

btw, aeris wanted to "die"

[Mercen-X]

Although the word departs from scientific usage in our world, in FFVII it refers to anyone given JENOVA cell therapy.

A DNA sequence, such as a gene, that is transferred from one organism to another and replicated by genetic engineering techniques.

Not scientific enough for you?

This is the sense by which Cloud was a clone. He was injected with Jenova cells. This procedure merely made him a "representation of Hojo's experiment." Hojo's experiment being to prove that Jenova would reunite even being dismembered. In other words, Cloud's whole body, his mind, his heart, his soul were all his own. The only cloned presence within him were the Jenova cells over which Jenova/Sephiroth had undeniable control. Cloud's faulty memory and "skeletons in his closet" made his spirit weak and susceptible to Sephiroth's manipulation of him via the Jenova cells. This is why we see kid Cloud trying to stop Cloud from giving Sephiroth the Black Materia.

I have heard that the word clone was misused there upon translation. From what I was told, clone was refering to the type of Jenova cells he got. They were cloned cells or some such.

Bipper

I deny this. The main characters as well as the player all misinterpret what is implied by the term, "Sephiroth clone." We were lead to believe that Hojo was attempting to create "another Sephiroth," another perfect being comprised of Jenova cells. However, this was not the case. In receiving the Jenova cells, each victim of the Nibelheim tragedy became an appendage to Sephiroth as it was Hojo's experiment to prove the Jenova's severed appendages would reunite. Hojo referred to his samples as "Sephiroth clones," however, it was not the people he was referring to. It was instead the Jenova cells residing within.

Zack had also undergone this experiment but was unaffected. He was the lost subject that Hojo had deemed a failure and whom Cloud was mistaken for by him during the "failure" mentionings in-game. Cloud only knew so much about his past.

Let me back up a bit. Following the fight against Jenova: Life, Sephiroth tells Cloud that he's a "puppet." Why? Because Sephiroth at this point is actually Jenova itself (as on the Shinra Boat, notice Sephiroth disappear as Jenova arrives, transformation, not coincidence) and it can sense the cells within Cloud which it knows it can control. Thus it knows that Cloud will reunite with the other cell carriers.

When "Sephiroth" told Cloud he was a clone of Jenova and could change his appearance based on the memory of someone else, he was not lying, he was merely incorrect. The "clones" did not possess the ability to change their appearance as they only had cells within them and were not comprised of the cells entirely. "Sephiroth," however, was actually a piece of Jenova, it thereby having the ability to mimic the form of Sephiroth, because Sephiroth was in Cloud's memories. How is this possible? Because of the cells within Cloud's body. The cells in Cloud allow Jenova access to his memories. This is why Cloud did not know things that only Tifa knew and why Sephiroth knew more about Cloud than Cloud knew of himself. Because he was not a memory of Tifa, Sephiroth was a memory of Cloud.

Tifa, however, was unaware of the events that transpired after her near-death experience. Zangan had done what he could in town as is displayed in both Cloud's memory and Sephiroth's "illusion." He then rushed to the reactor following Zack (who had already been followed by Cloud, the grunt). He was going to kill Sephiroth in his rage but didn't get there until after Sephiroth had been thrown into the Mako and Cloud lost conciousness. He found Tifa inside and rescued her (he explains in a letter later that he could not carry the others . . . could you carry three people?). On his way out, he noticed Hojo arriving and ordering the townspeople to be gathered for "the experiment."
This said, Tifa never knew that Cloud had been in Nibelheim, let alone could she confirm or deny the fate of Sephiroth or Cloud's Jenova treatments. She had been severely injured, as Zangan's letter later notes, he was indeed concerned about whether she'd survive. *Bear in mind that most of Seph's other victims were struck in the head as opposed to being sliced across the anterior (also Aeris most likely suffered major artery damage and possibly many vital organs were pierced/severed when Sephiroth stabbed her in the back.)