eugh...*shocked*

[Cloud No.9]

you have got to ask yourself why these people have been driven to this. we cannot just label them mad or bad. there is a reason why these people are doing this. and to end this first we have to understand them.

[Mr. Mojo Risin]

I understand they want to abolish all the rights of women...

I understand they want to erase all literature except for the memorization of the Koran...

I understand they want to kill every Jew on the face of the planet...

...and on and on.

[Cloud No.9]

that's not true.

you need to look at the organsisations individually. you have your chechnyan rebels wating an independant state, you palestinians wanting palestinian land. then you have your al-qaeda's which require a brief history lesson.

must of the arab world was owned by western governments. then we left during the first half of the 20th century and enplaced democratic governments. these though were mostly corrupt and were over thrown. these coups were down my military types and they instated a dictatorship (libya, iraq). and they tried to be all western. one country was an anamoly. iran. it reversed this trend. went back to the muslim routes. but still took in western ideas. (unlike afghanistan). it was the worlds first muslim state. and this seemed like a good idea. so people tried their own little revolutions to imitate it. these in suadi arabia, libya, iraq, egypt all ended in bloody miserable failure. after the fall of the berlin wall and the rise of the taliban in afghanistan (people there believe they not the west crushed russia). one man stood out. bin laden. he liked these new islamic state ideas and after sudi arabia rejected his idea to fight against iraq after the invasion of quwait. they rejected him and he became very bitter about this tried his own little revolutions and was eiled to sudan. in sudan he would lead another revolution which is successful and put in place the sudanese government which is now busy committing genocide.

bin laden and his general had a brain wave. attacking all these small arab states was not the answer. they were all aided and helped by one country. america. to remove the head of the snake was the new plan. this would have two reasons. it would make creating islamic states easier because you would limit resistance without american aid. and you would impress would be followers by showing that you had the power to defeat the super power.

this idealogy resulted in the embassy bombings after which bin laden was kicked out of sudan and returned to afghanistan (now even more bitter than he was before after being exiled twice). he had the idea of the big attack. the pearl harbour of terrorism. 9-11. the actual plan was in fact bigger than what happened. it was limited due to various arrests and lack of funding. there werw a few other attacks planned that were foiled. blowing up a few planes of the pacific. the assination of the pope in his plane. etc.

al qaeda was formed on the basis of the creation of a fully islamic arab world in the same way iran is/was.

there are of course other organisations. ones fighting for a sole cause like iraq. ones that are extreme right wing wanting the death of all jews in israel. but the vast majority are not.

frankly these people have been screwed over again and again and again. in palestine, iraq, iran, turkey, arabia, chechkya, kashmire, before that when europe controlled the middle east. and the islamic state idea was the answer.

but these people are angry and with good reason.

[Mr. Mojo Risin]

that's not true.

you need to look at the organsisations individually. you have your chechnyan rebels wating an independant state, you palestinians wanting palestinian land. then you have your al-qaeda's which require a brief history lesson.

Yes, but you want to know what they all have in common?

They hate that women have rights. You cannot produce a single Islamic terrorist group that says otherwise. They hate Jews. Again, it doesn't matter if they're in Gaza or Bahgdad(sp?). They hate books. You know what they did in Afghanistan after the fake Koran abuse story? They burned down libraries, some containing holy scriptures 1000s of yrs. old.

I was sold on the 'solidarity' of these guys(never women) after I found out about the 7/7 bombers. They were all rich, British born and raised crazies. They're anger didn't stem from being poor or growing up oppressed. They simply hate women, Jews and books.

I find obfuscating your hatred for the West by supporting 'liberators' quite disgusting. Imagine if they did 'liberate' Palestine, Iraq, Chechneya and Afghanistan. They'd reduce all women to mechanisms of procreation, burn all books and murder Jews quite gleefully.

[Skyblade]

you have got to ask yourself why these people have been driven to this. we cannot just label them mad or bad. there is a reason why these people are doing this. and to end this first we have to understand them.

They worship a guy who's greatest claim to fame was getting kicked out of a city, gathering an army, and invading the place that didn't want him. War is written into their "holy" texts. What other excuse do you need?

PS: I apologize to any non-terrorist Islamic individuals who read this and are offended by it.

[Cloud No.9]

and christains bible stories of genocide and destruction of cities is fine and dandy? and it must be noted that he story of moses and the jews in egypt is told in the same way as it is in the torah and bible and the quran. it is not anti-semitic.

and Mr mojo. it has already been discussed that the murder of soldier in iraq and afghanistan is legitimate guerrila wafare. and the british bombers were angry over the iraq war not the wanting of an islamic state. they say other muslims being slaughtered and had had enough.

chechen rebels are not fighting against women's rights. neither are the iraqi insurgents. they are fighting for the homeland.

[Skyblade]

and christains bible stories of genocide and destruction of cities is fine and dandy? and it must be noted that he story of moses and the jews in egypt is told in the same way as it is in the torah and bible and the quran. it is not anti-semitic.

and Mr mojo. it has already been discussed that the murder of soldier in iraq and afghanistan is legitimate guerrila wafare. and the british bombers were angry over the iraq war not the wanting of an islamic state. they say other muslims being slaughtered and had had enough.

chechen rebels are not fighting against women's rights. neither are the iraqi insurgents. they are fighting for the homeland.

Nowhere does the Bible tell it's followers to go out and kill all infidels, so kindly retract your statement.

[Cloud No.9]

neither does it say that in the quran.

it does say in the bible you will burn in hell for being infidels. sentenced to eternal damnation and infinite never ending pain. what a jolly fellow god is.

[Skyblade]

neither does it say that in the quran.

it does say in the bible you will burn in hell for being infidels. sentenced to eternal damnation and infinite never ending pain. what a jolly fellow god is.

Out of curiousity, have you read either?

[Cloud No.9]

yep. i was brought up chrsitain and read a lot of the torah and quran for my RMPS course.

[Skyblade]

Yet you somehow missed the part where the quran described Jihad?

[Cloud No.9]

jihad or holy war. fought to defend the muslim faith or it's lands. like afghanistan. not fought to convert but to defend. it was what they did with the ruskies. and what has been called since on westernised regimes in the middle east and israeli occupation of conquered lands. this though is not a true jihad in the most common sense. it has not been called against a occupying or invading force but rather the government and it is not a war but mostly terrorist action (murder is one of the ten commandments passed down to moses or noah (can't remember which). that particular event happens in all 3 books if i recall.

and so is suicide spoke greatly against in the quran. it states that no matter how good his life and how perfect he may have lived that if he takes his own life he will be sentenced to eternal punishment.

martyrdom takes place on the battlefield in the event of heroism. the argument of the extremists is that they are killing themselves to fight the war and so is not true suicide.

[War Angel]

read a lot of the torah and quran

Wow, you must be some really old, knowledgeble sage, being capable to comprehend both Arabic and Hebrew in their most archaic forms! :rolleyes2

Jihad is a holy war, a devine struggle, is one of the six main foundations of Islam (along with things like charity, pilgrimage, etc). It happens on two levels - the global, and the personal.

On the personal level, it is the struggle of a Muslim against his own devils, his will to do wrong, and to steer away from the teachings of Islam. Therefore, it is a holy war within himself. So far, this is a benign idea.

However, things get a bit nasty later on... nasty for those who strayed away from Islam, or those who were never a part of it. Jihad can be declared upon an entity or a person, whom a Muslim with religious authority (called a sheikh, mufti, shariff, etc etc, much like a rabbi, a priest or a bishop) can decide poses a threat to the Islamic Nation, or Ummaht Islam. Now, the word 'threat' can be stretched pretty wide... it is obvious that a conqueror who is not of the Islamic faith can have Jihad declared upon him. However, if in the eyes of some more radical Muslim, certain Muslims are not 'close enough to the faith', he can declare Jihad upon them as well. That way, when Egypt became more secular over the years, it suffered from continous acts of terrorism, in the name of Islam and Jihad - all of which is legitimate, according to Islamic law. They are infidels, and once they are under the axe of Jihad, must either correct their ways (convert or go back to their religious roots), or perish.

In the eyes of radical Muslims (of which there way too many for comfort), the entire world in the Nation of Islam, and all must convert or die. Tough.

About suicide - yes, much like the two monotheistic religions that came before it, Islam speaks against suicide. However, dying for a cause (and in Islam, the cause justifies the means, under most circumstances) is not suicide. If you blow yourself up to kill the enemy, it is not suicide, according to Islamic law, but an act of heroism, a martyr's death, worthy of a place in heaven.

[Cloud No.9]

we actually got english translations. (not a grealty muslim thing to do).

martyrdom and it's place as suicide or heroism causes much debate. murder of civillians is spoke against greatly. but then again if you walked beside a squad of army guys and blew yourself up would it be any different than throwing a grenade?

[Skyblade]

we actually got english translations. (not a grealty muslim thing to do).

martyrdom and it's place as suicide or heroism causes much debate. murder of civillians is spoke against greatly. but then again if you walked beside a squad of army guys and blew yourself up would it be any different than throwing a grenade?

It would be a lot less safe...