Charity and Philanthropy

[Dr Unne]

I don't see why it's such a big deal for people to defend themselves when they don't give to chairty. I'm still gonna judge you no matter how awesome your reasoning is, just like you're gonna judge me for being a dummy for donating too much of my time and money that I don't have. I just wanted to say that before the fight started.

If you mean "defend themselves" meaning "Please don't judge me" or "Please don't hate me", that's not really my goal. I only think it's an interesting subject to talk about. I don't think that people who give money to charity are dumb; it's your money, you can do whatever you want with it. Spend it on yourself, spend it on charity, burn it, pile it up and look at it, whatever. There's nothing immoral about any of those. If people judge me for not giving to charity, I think they're wrong, but it's their right to believe that, and I have no wish to avoid judgment any more than I have a wish for everyone around me to stop thinking entirely. Certainly we can all discuss things without resorting to a fight.

[qq=Cloud No.9]we are talking people living in the desert with nothing around them except sand for hundreds of miles, starving and dying. these people cannot help themselves. they don't have control of their own lives. they will die without outside aid. men, women and children will die from that idea today. they will die a slow, agonising death that can take weeks. only one set of people can end that. and we continue to refuse to.[/qq]

In the beginning, everyone in the world lived in caves and deserts and holes in the ground. Now, we don't. How did this happen? If living in the desert means that you're unable to survive without help from outside sources, when EVERYONE was in the desert, how did anyone survive? There were no outside sources. Space aliens?

No, someone decided "Hey, living the desert kind of sucks" and figured out a way to get out. On their own. If people could do that with no help whatsoever, what's stopping people from doing it today when you have 10,000 years of knowledge to build on? Does it take superhuman powers to say "Hey look, that American isn't starving to death. Let's ask him why." Or "Hey, let's stop warring with each other long enough to build a library." Or "Hey, instead of having 10 babies I can't afford to feed, how about if I work to support myself, educate myself (here, or work hard to get to another country to do it), then I'll actually be able to change my environment for the better in a meaningful way, if I wish to do so".

I knew some people at my college who were from Africa. They were not mentally handicapped. They were as capable of anything as any other human being. What would they say if I said "You're from Africa? Here's some money. I'm so sorry for you." I'd probably be punched in the face. Rightly so.

Let's say everyone in the US chips in and gives Africa enough money to feed everyone for one year. After one year, what will happen? Will everyone then magically be able to support themselves and live in the desert without help? No. By "end the problem", I think you mean that I should work nonstop until I die to support people who live in Africa. I don't think that's really an acceptable solution. The solution for ending problems in Africa is for Africans to change their way of life.

Here's an idea. First, try to walk out of the desert. If you're unable or unwilling to do that, then your second option is not to have babies. In one generation there will no longer be a problem of people living in the desert. Every human being has an inate understanding that "PAIN = BAD". Every human being has a knowledge that "Other people feel pain the same way I myself feel pain". I don't know of any human being who doesn't know where babies come from, and isn't able to prevent having them if they choose to do so. If someone has children anyways, it's not my problem any more than it's my problem to pay the medical bills of someone who hits himself in the head with a hammer.

[Wiegrahf42]

This goes back to the whole idea, "People shouldn't get welfare checks becuase it encourages them to be lazy".

[bipper]

Well, I thought this would be a quick thread. Looks like I was wrong

Like Dr. Unne says "You can do what you want with your money..." this is right to a point.

If we had so many people saving all thier money it would created a temporary economic vacum, then as the savings are spent, tadical injections could cause a temporary rise in the economic cycle, which would then be followed by a bigger recession. In no way do I think we should control the way people allocate thier resources; but I couldn't help but put some bs that I learned in econmics down.

When one donates money, they do so intending it to help people. After seeing the Red Cross 9/11 scandal in action, then so many Katrina scandals, the only place I donate to is my church. Giving your money to a fool is not smart donating. Leaving your money with those whom are responsable is the best answer; the parable of the Talents (Mathew 25: 14-30).

[Cloud No.9]

""Hey look, that American isn't starving to death. Let's ask him why." because his riches from the subsidies, tarriffs and taxes which kill 30,00 africans a day. that is why.

"Here's an idea. First, try to walk out of the desert. If you're unable or unwilling to do that, then your second option is not to have babies. In one generation there will no longer be a problem of people living in the desert." a yes genocide. what a quaint idea. or we could just do tis whole process forcefully and gas them all and save anyone the hassle...........

and fyi the birth rate in africa is so high because most babies die within their first year. that's because they are starving. and that is due to subsidies, tarrifs, debt and lack of aid.

[fire_of_avalon]

Hi. I typoed my earlier post. It should say the following.

I don't see why it's such a big deal for people to have to defend themselves when they don't give to chairty. I'm still gonna judge you no matter how awesome your reasoning is, just like you're gonna judge me for being a dummy for donating too much of my time and money that I don't have. I just wanted to say that before the fight started.

I was just trying to point out, before people got all hairy, that we're still going to keep the same opinions regardless of anything, so we shouldn't even begin to fight about it.

[bipper]

I do agree with cloud that tarrifs are a huge deal. I really do, but its something that our government has to figure out. There is a lot of pressure on them to do so. Bill clinton said it best on CNN the other night, he basically said that its not weather or not we are going to do things, it is simply how to impliment them. It was a fairly good program called somthing to the extent of "Global sumit with President Clinton". Sony Bono was on it with some VERY advocating ideas. I persoanlly like his stance on religous peace as well. The man gets two thumbs up from me

See the problem with what you are thinking cloud, is that these terrifs crush the Affrican economy, and cause thousands to die. Well, we can and have offered affrica a LOT of aid. While our federal govenment has not steped in, there are so many groups dedicated to helping.

There is a huge gaping difference between charity and Federal Aid. Charity allows the people to help directly, without (idealy) polotitians and other outsided sourcees touching the money. Charity is also money simply given to what one 'beleives' is a good cause. Federal aid often is used as a political tool by federal governments to aid the world economy or boost its self image. If Africa had a great resource that our government could use, and we couldn't already get it, they would aid the hell outta them to get that country in thier debt. The political facet of aid.

Charity on the other hand, lets me donate my resources to -say- the 'Children's Christain Foundation' (i think.) to utilize my donated resources to help whatever cause they are for. Charity should be looked at as being nice, and giving to those in need - where as federal aid, will never be a true form of charity.

[Cloud No.9]

but aid cannot be used effectively without just trade. you can give the farmers as much seed and trowels as you want. but if he isn't able to sell his crops then he will go back to being poor and starving in a few years.

[bipper]

Either way the farm can grow and sell crops locally. Trade wise, a country should be fine as long as it has the possibility to be self saficiant. Affrica has the abbility, what the lack is ths opacity. I really do not know how else to say it. If they changed thier horrid farming habits, they could infact become self saficiant.

If we aided the hell outta them, and dropped all tarrifs, and infact gave them the anti on the world market, the second any amount of global economic harship hit, they would fail again. Why give some one somthing, that they can easily obtain when it will make them weak in the long run?

Bipper

[Cloud No.9]

trade subsidies and artificially cheap crops ruin the local market in africa also.

[Madame Adequate]

Cloud, I'm just letting you know, if/when Hachi and Dr. Unne return to the thread they will entirely agree with you and I that tariffs/subsidies = bad. NOBODY IS DENYING THIS. (You'd think that when people as loony, radical and diametrically opposed as you and I agree on something, it'd be pretty obvious it needs to be fixed.)

To reiterate: We entirely agree that those trade policies are wrong.

[bipper]

Also, I am comparing the differences of forign aid to charity. I think there is an important difference where a line is, and should be. I don't wish to debate tarrifs and other dumb set ups. Ever have a debate with someone you agree with? Yea, its don't work too well.

To note even Bill Clinton and several politician's realize there are issues here. It is simply getting the people's will done. I really don't want to derail this thread into a nother niger thread. I simply brought it up as it was a good platfrom to explain and possibly identify the differences between Charity and Government aid. I am currious as to exactly how correct I might be thoguh

Bipper