Terrorists........Kind ?

[War Angel]

Or haven't you heard about Israel, and how their entire military ordinance is American weaponry? Israel was using our guns, flying our planes, and dropping our bombs when they fought against the arab nations and claimed the territory now known as Palistine. Hell, they were even paying their soldiers using OUR money.

First, the 4th largest armoured corp in the world is composed of 100% Israeli made Merkava tanks. The 3rd largest air force in the world is composed of 100% American (custom-made to Israeli demands and needs) aircraft. Also, more importantly - American military aid only started to flow into Israel from 1973, and before it Israeli relied on France and Britian. French Mirage fighter planes served us well for decades against Russian Migs. Further more, there's this thing called 'taxes', and we have them here. People pay taxes. Yes, there's a very handsome 4 billion dollar aid from the US, which we use to buy military equipment from them, but it's only about one quarter of our security budget.

now known as Palistine

Who in the what, now? Israel, love, Israel. Always was, and always will be. Please disregard any Roman insults to our nation, as they're not very funny anyway.

when we helped Israel's creation.

You did wot? Sorry, laddie, but neither you, nor your country were around when Israel first came to be. The Asyrians were, the Mesopotamians, the Babylonians, and the ancient Egyptians... but they're all gone now. And in-case you're reffering to the renewed State of Israel - we lost 6+ million lives, not including the 5 subsequent wars that followed, and we are still fighting for our very right to live on this piece of land, upon which we have been sitting since the dawn of humanity. No freaking foreigner helped through the entire thousands-year-old facade. We appreciate America's help greatly, and we stand by them, but let's not make a bigger deal out of it than it really is. Our right for existence is not dependant on aid, help, or even moral support. We were here long before any bugger out there, and we fought long and hard, and seems we will keep on doing so. What is rightly ours, will always be ours, and we will always claim it as so, support or no support.

forcing the arabs out of israel,

You say it like it's a bad thing. There's a reason it's called Israel, and not 'welcome-we-take-everyone-in-please-shove-sharp-objects-up-our-bum' land. Would you like to be run-over by an enemy that wants nothing more than your death? Sorry, but if anyone tries to mess with Israel, they'd meet with the wrong kind of Jewish humour - and it's not nearly as funny as Seinfeld.

is like asking how to make a swarm of angry hornets stop stinging after you just broke their nest off the tree.

Asking? You don't freaking ask hornets to stop stinging you - you exterminate them. Get the analogy?

Sorry, kids, "right" and "wrong" are real, breathing concretes, regardless what your philosophy and sociology professors tried to teach you.

I disagree. I don't think moral values are absolute. However, I don't think it matters, really. A man can believe whatever he wants... it's when he tries to impose it upon others, that it gets nasty. If terrorists think it's alright to kill for an idea - that's fine by me. But that's also the exact same moment they've signed their own death warrant. They are already dead.

it is our fault this war is at this stage.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the source of the problem. 'I am the one to blame', said the rape victime. Some victims turn soft, thinking it's their fault they got attacked, finding justifications for the attacker's motivation... it's all sick, very sick. Psychiatrists sit down with people, and help them realise they're not to be blamed, that it's not their fault. The European standpoint is still that of 'what did we do wrong?'. Well, it doesn't f*king matter! There are people out there that want to kill you! Stand on your God-damned feet and fight, or freaking die like cowardly dogs!

Why should anyone care why someone wants to kill them?! Would it even matter if their motives are somehow justified? Would you roll over and die, if that were the case? I should hope not! So stop taking the punishment and humiliation, and act up! Your enemy sure is.

but it's still damned impressive tenacity.

Yes. And that means our own tenacity, the will to live and protect what is dear to us, has to be stronger. The enemy's persistence, viciousness, cruelty and tenacity are to be respected and despised at the same time, but not feared. We must fight back, or we're dead. It doesn't get much simpler, in the laws of survival.

[udsuna]

Sorry, but your ordinance in "renewing" israel was european and american ordinance. Mostly left-overs from the world war. Including american soldiers who voluntarily aided them. How do you think you POPULATED Jerusalum after taking it from its millenium-old existence in Muslim hands? Something that not even the Crusades managed to do. It's because you had families, and troops, from all of the Allied powers.

And you don't get to claim Israel's old heritage. That only works for unbroken lines. Besides, to claim that, you give the same de facto privilage to the peoples of Islam. Or aren't you aware of Abraham, and his sons? Even your own bible names you two peoples as brothers in heritage. Explains the family resemblance. I know I can't tell an Israeli from a Muslim (arabic muslim, of course) by looking at them, without going by what they wear or how they style themselves.

As for the argument about Palestine, and that it doesn't exist. It exists, it's a very real chunk of land. Now, it may have almost no legal independence. In fact, I'm very certain that the states and provinces within most other countries have more autonomy. But it DOES exist, and your own leaders refer to it as "Palestine". And it belonged to Muslim nations at one time. You guys took it as part of the ceasefire.

Speaking of which, aren't they currently moving Jewish settlements out of the occupied territories? So much for "always will".

I'm not saying your current war of self-defence is wrong. But you were, and are, the aggressors of this thing. But I do think the quote in your signature makes the point better than I ever could.

[War Angel]

udsuna - you speak ignorant, vile words. I'll counter them some other time, as service starts tommorow, once more, after a relaxing, enjoyable weekend, and I need my beauty sleep. Stick around.

[udsuna]

Hmm... insults. My words may be vile, to you at least, but they're by no means "ignorant". I'm pretty well educated, thanks. And who's education should you trust more? Ours (by which I mean America specifically, and european/western in general) who were watching and recording these events real-time since they began. Or yours, which I can only GUESS how much propoganda has been mixed in. I know I don't trust American history records in our wars (especially against the natives). No more than I'd trust Napoleon's account of the French Revolution, or Nazi Germany's account of WW2. Well, in the first two, I do trust the timeline (to some degree) and the "we kicked their asses" statements.

But I DO look forward to hearing your responce. "Ignorant and vile", indeed. I wonder if your government takes the same attitude you do. Because if this is how you treat people who simply disagree with you, no wonder your enemies are running a terrorist campaign. Because it's not like diplomacy would work. But that's a lot of "if"s, and while my look at the over-all is about as accurate as anyone's, my knowlege of the specifics is a little blurry.

[MJN SEIFER]

EVERYBODY has a good and bad side.

[Old Manus]

Sympathising with the enemy is the first step to defeat.

[udsuna]

Sympathising with the enemy is the first step to defeat.

Also the first and second steps to peace.

[Old Manus]

But also the first step to defeat.

[udsuna]

And we have now entered the feedback-loop. Is there any wonder why, in all of human history, there has been a war somewhere in the world at all times?

[ZeZipster]

This thread has 21 chromosomes.

They aren't aliens. Terrorists are people. What's the difference between a terrorist and a soldier? One kills people because he's told and the other kills people because he wants to scare people? That means our attack on Hiroshima was TERRORISM. Note that we killed innocent civilians in Hiroshima. Are soldiers nice people?

"Gee, uhh well I guess they can are be boths!"

[Cuchulainn]

Calling all 'terrorists' evil is idiotic to the extreme. They are human like you and I. As such should be judged on their actions not their label. A lot of what 'terrorists' do is warped ideology to the extreme, a lot is fighting for freedom. Then again, a lot of regular soldiers are warped to the extreme. No one group or human is the same & labeling them as 'evil' only serves to soothe your own needs.

'Terrorism' is a reaction to something or some group, stronger in men & resources than the 'terrorist'. Therefore it's war 'by other means'. These 'other means' are usually done by few & with little funding, therefore precision of attack is harder & 'mistakes' are frequent, with collateral lives lost. A lot deliberately attack innocents for the same reasons as above.

It's a dirty nasty war by both the 'terrorist' and the government fighting it, I know this first hand. The word 'evil' is a sanctimonious cop out.

[Wiegrahf42]

Ah, whatever happened to one of those good, clean wars, where we didn't shoot civillians (or even officers), both sides wore bright colors, and stood in neat little lines while they blew each other away.
But seriously, everything all depends on a person's point of view.

[bipper]

Calling all 'terrorists' evil is idiotic to the extreme. They are human like you and I. As such should be judged on their actions not their label. A lot of what 'terrorists' do is warped ideology to the extreme, a lot is fighting for freedom. Then again, a lot of regular soldiers are warped to the extreme. No one group or human is the same & labeling them as 'evil' only serves to soothe your own needs.

I guess calling Satan a misunderstood flower child is ok then... Terrorists are evil. Lets look at this: Little johny has a problem with a neiboring country's (bob) actions. Bob is a body builder with facial hair, so little johny decided that brutally killing Bob's younger sister is the best way to get even, and get heard.

Little johny shall then rot in hell. He is EVIL and will never seek vindiction. I am appauled that we can say that terrorists are misunderstood people. That is like saying they were just bad pilots!
What do terrorists want? Why do they cause terror to get things done? Because what they want is not worth others time to listen to them. They need to kick and scream and blow up likea 5 year old drama child. With that analogy I am afraid I must through everything I said in the child dicipline thread out the window, and break some paddles over thier worthless keisters.

How can you sympathise with a terrorist whom aims at innocent people? I am not talking you supposed 'labeled terrorists' but real terrorists. Yes, some may be marked as terrorists in the short run, but the obvious standing is that real terrorists need their trip to hell hastened.
Bipper

[ThroneofDravaris]

That is like saying they were just bad pilots!

You have no idea how much I laughed when I read that...

Meh, I don’t think it matters if the are decent people or not. They kill us, we kill them. They continue to convince people to blow themselves up. We scare the s@#$ out of people to make more money out of them.

It’s all good…

[ZeZipster]

Ah, whatever happened to one of those good, clean wars, where we didn't shoot civillians (or even officers), both sides wore bright colors, and stood in neat little lines while they blew each other away.

They ended when the civilians began building weapons, thus becoming assets to that government's army.