Cloud's strength and Jenova cells (unmarked FFVII and AC spoilers)

[?????]

First of all, he still had Mako in him (look at his eyes during the close-up when Sephiroth returns), so he'd still be uber. Second, he was uber even before he was infused with Mako or injected with JENOVA's Cells. Watch Last Order. He pulled himself down the length of Sephiroth's blade and threw Sephiroth into a wall by gripping the blade; further, the wall crumpled like paper when Sephiroth hit it. Sephiroth was dumb-founded that Cloud could do this and said "What the hell are you?!"

The thing is, it's not told anywhere in FFVII when he was showered with Mako. Sure, he had the glow in his eyes, but Jenova cells could have caused that as well. Mako is given to those joining the SOLDIER, and Cloud never made it into the SOLDIER. When he killed Sephiroth in Nibelheim's Mako Reactor, I think it'd be safe to say he had neither Mako nor Jenova cells at that point. So it must have been Hojo who gave him Mako, which is quite weird when he just wanted to experiment with Jenova cells by putting them on Nibelheim's survivors.

So, yeah, Cloud was always really powerful. In any event, anyone is capable of surge in strength from the Spirit Energy. Limit Breaks/Trances are something anyone can undergo, and in Cloud's case, his Spirit Energy is just really strong.

No. The only people who have seemingly been able to reach a Limit Break are the nine party members and the kid in the inn near Avalanche's hideout. As for Trance and Spirit Energy giving you the power to reach it...

In some respects, every single one of us can perform a limit break. If you will recall general biology or psych classes, the activation of a person's "fight-or-flight" instinct results in increased strength, agility, and stamina. This alone is not enough to account for a limit break, but there have been some relatively weak people who could perform feats as spectacular as lifting up a car when, say, the life of a loved one was in danger; the increased adrenaline flow allows for much higher capabilities.

Cloud says he never made it into SOLDIER. I don't buy that, especially not from someone as confused as he is. Dialogue analysis is always less substantive than physical analysis. The FFVII: Last Order anime shows that he possesses Mako eyes in the reactor incident, as did Zack. In my opinion, the best fix is to say that at the time of the reactor incident, Cloud was a candidate for SOLDIER, but not a full-fledged member. Of course, seeing as he even made it that far in the first place, he's got to be fairly strong under his own power. The reactor incident was after Shinra went to war with Wutai, by about five years or so. By all accounts, the warriors of Wutai were fierce and powerful, but seemingly no match for Shinra's superior technology. Nevertheless, they very well could have taken a mighty toll on Shinra's ranks, such as in World War II's Pacific Theater. Alternatively, Wutai could have had more manpower at the time. Whether it's a case of history repeating itself or a simple allegory, Shinra would need new blood. Someone like Cloud fits the bill perfectly.

[Masamune·1600]

Unfortunately, it's taken me quite some time to be able to see Advent Children, but now that I have, I can browse freely through this forum. I'm not going to bother to reply to every statement made, but I'll just hit on few salient points that stuck out at me while I was browsing.

First off, ignoring the green glow present in Cloud's eyes during Last Order, eyes can't be used as an argument for Mako being blue, as Sephiroth's eyes are green. I can't imagine that this wasn't pointed out, but I didn't see it while browsing.

Further, while there are certain continuity issues raised by Last Order, it merits mentioning that the "Reactor Pods" have been altered to appear green, as opposed to blue. When Sephiroth jumps into the depths of the reactor in Last Order, there's no question that the substance is green.

Further, at the very beginning of AC, when we see Mako being siphoned to the Sister Ray, both the Mako being utilized and the resulting bursts of gas from the reactors are green.

This is all irrelevant, of course; Squall already pointed out that its directly stated in-game that Cloud received Mako infusion. Beyond his "Mako eyes," the following report from the lab in the Shinra basement conclusively answers the matter.

Escapee report no. 2
Description at the time of capture.
A - Former member of SOLDIER/Number ( )
No effect could be detected from either Mako Radiation Therapy or Jenova on him
B - Regular/Number ( )
Reaction to Jenova detected.

While it could be argued that it doesn't specifically indicate that Cloud was given Mako Radiation Therapy, stating so would be redundant given the report on Zack. Combined with the certain knowledge that Mako is green, Cloud's Mako eyes, and the understanding that Cloud's being a "Sephiroth Clone" implies undergoing the enhancements given to members of SOLDIER, there really should be no question.

Although it seems more a point of gameplay than story, Sephiroth1999AD's point about levels is actually correct. According to the FFVII AC Prologue, all party members are at Level 99, while Cloud himself has a level greater than 99. This is strange at best, but seems to be the case from an official SE publication.

As to why Cloud became more powerful after the presence of JENOVA was removed, as has been frequently mentioned, the Mako infusion was still in effect. Further, however, Cloud's Geostigma had been removed. While Geostigma didn't seem to have all that severe an effect outside of the times when it visibly caused Cloud pain, I feel there's no question that removing the syndrome could only help Cloud as far as his fighting ability goes.

Moreover, Cloud had begun to understand that he could forgive himself. The removal of this mental burden also would have aided him.

As to All Lucky Sevens, its "title" appears the same way a Limit Break does (i.e. same color when initiated, as well as varicolored in the menu). Further, like Limit Breaks, All Lucky Sevens has priority over other actions. As a matter of fact, All Lucky Sevens even preempts Limit Breaks.

As to Limit Breaks, while their relationship to Spirit Energy is never explicitly stated, it's certainly the most logical explanation. Please take note of this essay, which I wrote before having any knowledge (other than the definition of Geostigma) of Advent Children. Based on the fact that this predates AC, it can be inferred that FFVII itself suggests Spirit Energy as an implicit explanation for Limit Breaks. AC would seem to further this point.

Cloud says he never made it into SOLDIER. I don't buy that, especially not from someone as confused as he is. Dialogue analysis is always less substantive than physical analysis. The FFVII: Last Order anime shows that he possesses Mako eyes in the reactor incident, as did Zack. In my opinion, the best fix is to say that at the time of the reactor incident, Cloud was a candidate for SOLDIER, but not a full-fledged member. Of course, seeing as he even made it that far in the first place, he's got to be fairly strong under his own power. The reactor incident was after Shinra went to war with Wutai, by about five years or so. By all accounts, the warriors of Wutai were fierce and powerful, but seemingly no match for Shinra's superior technology. Nevertheless, they very well could have taken a mighty toll on Shinra's ranks, such as in World War II's Pacific Theater. Alternatively, Wutai could have had more manpower at the time. Whether it's a case of history repeating itself or a simple allegory, Shinra would need new blood. Someone like Cloud fits the bill perfectly.

Ignoring the small continuity issues present in Last Order, Cloud's Mako eyes don't necessarily suggest that he was a SOLDIER candidate, or SOLDIER-elect, or anything of that nature. Were that the case, his pivotal self-doubt would have never come into play. In fact, he would have had reason to greet Tifa, glad to let her know that his induction as a SOLDIER was forthcoming. The eyes do seem to support my own personal reading of the matter; having tried to enter SOLDIER, Cloud would have been given JENOVA cells and been infused with Mako. I feel that it was the JENOVA cells that prevented entry into SOLDIER in the first place. Regardless, the point is that Cloud failed to make it into SOLDIER, and thus his self-doubt was magnified even further.

[?????]

As I recall, Shinra only exposed their elite squads to Mako. They don't have the capital to waste on people who haven't proven themselves; doing so isn't good business. Cloud must have done something right, or he quite simply wouldn't have the power to face down Sephiroth; no unenhanced human could do what he did and live. Cases of "Mako poisoning" are mentioned, though. In the case of Cloud's time sitting in a wheelchair in Mideel, his mind had been particularly broken. It seems likely that Mako injection affects the mind.

Nowhere is it mentioned in the AC prologue or anywhere else in the movie where the characters are in terms of in-game mechanics. For all we know they could still be at Level 1, though this seems exceptionally unlikely.

Data in SE official publications is only valid when it does not contradict its source material. This applies regardless of what universe you're working in.

[Masamune·1600]

As I recall, Shinra only exposed their elite squads to Mako. They don't have the capital to waste on people who haven't proven themselves; doing so isn't good business. Cloud must have done something right, or he quite simply wouldn't have the power to face down Sephiroth; no unenhanced human could do what he did and live. Cases of "Mako poisoning" are mentioned, though. In the case of Cloud's time sitting in a wheelchair in Mideel, his mind had been particularly broken. It seems likely that Mako injection affects the mind.

While similar, it's important to differentiate between Spirit Energy and Mako, which is compressed/refined Spirit Energy. FFVII lamentably doesn't do a great job of differentiating, but even when used synonymously, the fact remains that it was the great concentration of Spirit Energy/Mako that led to Cloud's incapacitation in Mideel. It was, in essence, due to the overabundance of knowledge forced into his mind all at once by merit of floating through the Lifestream.

Barret: So what about him? You know...... Cloud?

Doctor: I'll say it again, he's got Mako poisoning. I've never seen a case this
bad. An immerse amount of Mako-drenched knowledge was put into his brain all at
once...... No normal human could survived it...... It's a miracle he did!

Barret: No wonder... After fallin' in the Lifestream an' bein' washed up
here......

In fact, given that "no normal human could have survived it," it can even be argued (as should obviously be the case from Cloud's enormous power) that he has a special affinity for Mako and to the Lifestream, manifested in his Spirit Energy.

Nowhere is it mentioned in the AC prologue or anywhere else in the movie where the characters are in terms of in-game mechanics. For all we know they could still be at Level 1, though this seems exceptionally unlikely.

The AC Prologue isn't part of the movie. It's a book published by Square Enix, which details certain facets of AC. A machine translation on Advent Children.net stated that all party members were level 99, and that Cloud was the only one that could go beyond it. While machine translations are by their nature flawed, it's possible to draw out the meaning from what's stated, and this particular passage is unusually lucid.

Data in SE official publications is only valid when it does not contradict its source material. This applies regardless of what universe you're working in.

Um, I was doing that for your benefit. Your theory absolutely requires previous Mako infusion, which necessitates the "Cloud's Mako eyes scene" in Last Order. In any case, as previously stated, it's nothing short of ridiculous to suggest that Cloud was a SOLDIER-in-training of some sort, as it completely, wholly, and utterly departs from perhaps the single most important plot device of Final Fantasy VII.

[Sefie1999AD]

I don't mean to interrupt your conversation, Masamune and ????? (by all means, carry on), but I just wanted to say that sometimes you can write 50 screens worth of essays where you say things like "Damn, man, it's so obvious! Can't you even count 2 plus 2 together?", but you still fail to convince someone in every way. And sometimes, less than two rows of text is enough to explain things, like in this post:

Cloud is really strong in Advent Children because it's fan service and it's real fun to watch Cloud defy gravity and fight real fast with a Sword twice his size.

To quote Kingdom Hearts, "maybe some things are that simple." Thanks for your answers, Craig and others. Now if you want to continue this conversation, people, go ahead.

[KoShiatar]

You guys are crazy.

[?????]

If one is postulating that Cloud has some kind of special affinity for Mako that makes him stronger than normal humans even without actually being infused with Mako, one must also postulate where this special strength is derived from. One must also question, if this is the case, why he didn't make SOLDIER. If you can explain those, I'll accept your analysis.

I've not seen this prologue that you refer to. I'd be appreciative if someone could provide a link.

Also, nothing is ever that simple. There is a reason that they can defy gravity; to put it simply, the power of the planet and of Jenova strengthens them far beyond normal human capabilities.

[Ceil]

Some people are genetically strong, some people are genetically weak. Maybe an unknown twist is that Cloud is also of the Cetra. Maybe he didn't pass a Psych. Eval. to get into SOLDIER.

[?????]

If he didn't pass a psych evaluation, there's no way in hell that Sephiroth could have. And nobody's inherently strong enough to withstand being stabbed through the stomach.

[PjO]

I am under the impression that Cloud received his new strength through a vision. Aeris reached out and held his hand as he passed through Bahamut's attack, and sped atop of the monster's spine, slicing it with a blue sort of energy (I refuse to say "pyrefly." I don't like the idea of the two worlds being linked, although all recent FF games have basically the same mythology). Furthermore, this had not shown up prior to his vision, and did show up as he fought Sephiroth in the final minutes of the film.

In short: Aeris gave him his new strength. I didn't quite know what was happening until I heard: "Interesting... what made you stronger?" "I wouldn't tell it to the likes of you." It seemed rather implied to me.

The idea of this being a fan service is possible, but then again Square has never let us down much, has it? Of course not. Otherwise we'd hate them. I simply refuse to believe the entire film was a fan service.

This is my own opinion: please respect it and discuss it.

[Ceil]

New York rapper 50¢ was shot nine times and survived, why couldn't Cloud survive getting stabbed?

[?????]

Of course he was shot nine times and survived. Any one of us could survive that, if medical care was provided fast enough and if they didn't hit any vital organs. There's a difference between mere survival and managing to actually defeat your assailant after the fact.

[Ceil]

I don't know if it was brought up in this thread (I believe the conversation was actually regarding Limit Breaks), but people in a desperate condition can perform incredible (in every sense of the word) feats of strength, thanks to adrenaline. People (not on drugs) have been known to lift a car to save a loved one. I think Cloud could finish of Sephiroth for his loved ones in the 'desperate situation' he was in. If you recall, he did pass out once Sephiroth was 'gone', showing that the alleged affects of adrenaline had passed, for he and Tifa were once again safe. Shortly after, Shin-Ra showed up and whisked he and Zack away, not to be seen again for five years. If anyone in the Final Fantasy multi-verse can afford/perform the necessary medical procedures to garauntee their survival, it is Shin-Ra and Hojo.

[?????]

In the instances where people lift cars, they are not being grievously injured. It is quite simply impossible for Cloud to perform such a feat without having been injected with Mako or having some special talent beforehand. But to have Cloud be some sort of hero chosen by fate would destroy the entire premise of Final Fantasy; the belief that free will is absolute.

[Cipher]

This is pulled directly from the script (and I've got a link to the script in its entirety if anyone wants it - feel free to PM me).

"I'm physically built like someone on SOLDIER."

See? Cloud said for himself (AFTER being able to pick out what was truth v. what was a lie) that he was physically built like someone in SOLDIER to begin with. Plus, Hojo used his body for "cloning" experimentation.

In fact, that leads directly into Cloud's next set of words, and my next point:

"Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult."
"It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of
SOLDIER."
"You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy."
"Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells......"
"For better or for worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER."
"It has nothing to do with the Jenova Reunion."
"But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing."

In retrospect, I believe that we're thinking of the word 'Clone' in the wrong context, as it pertains to what Hojo was doing. Hojo didn't clone in the sense of starting a new embryo, thus creating a carbon copy of the original right down to the DNA. Instead, they use the injections to try and modify one's genetic makeup, maybe through the destruction of certain strands of DNA. I don't know. I ain't a scientist.

HOWEVER. What I do know is that this would explain what Hojo was doing to Cloud in the basement of the ShinRa mansion.

No...get your head out of the gutter.

He was attempting the "Clone" process. Zack - understandably - wouldn't have reacted badly to the Mako, because already been exposed to high levels of it before (which is how he became part of SOLDIER in the first place).

I'm going to also assume that ShinRa doesn't just inject a person with Mako willy-nilly. They'd probably do something similar to what Doctor's used to call the "scratch test." The scratch test was a way for a Doctor to find out exactly what his patient was allergic to, by applying a small amount of whatever it is (peanut oil) on his patient's wrist, and then watching to see what happens. No bad reaction = No allergy.

If you apply that to the injection of Mako/Jenova Cells, it's probably assumed that Cloud was rejected from SOLDIER through a similar method - a small controlled application of Mako causing a minor adverse reaction. So what do you get if you stick a person that's allergic to peanuts in a HUGE vat of peanut oil?

You get Cloud, that's what.

At least, that's my theory. Not nearly as well-thought out or put-together as the responses I've seen in this thread so far... but feel free to discuss and offer a rebuttal. I promise I won't go stabbity.