The relationship between Cloud and Tifa

[Sefie1999AD]

Maiden Over The Planet / Maiden Flowing Through The Planet / Hoshi o Meguru Otome - whatever you want to call it. It's the official Aerith Novella included in FFVII - Ultimania Omega and consists of seven chapters. So far only the Prelude and Chapter Six have been translated. I would share the link, but my browser isn't working at the moment. I can edit this post with the link later.

I don't trust those novellas since they conflict with the game's story. Case closed.

Sorry, no. Please refer to limitations of computer graphics waaay back in 1997.

I won't, especially when that was an FMV where character emotions are showed in the best way they can be. If SNES FFs can portray character emotions well enough, surely PSX FFs can. And Cloud didn't look especially sad when dropping Aeris.

You think? Sorry, not going to take that point then. What 'you think' has nothing to do with me, especially not in a debate.

Well, there's two choices:
1) It was Cloud who said that (which I think). If that's true, it means Cloud was devastated by the loss of Tifa and his hometown.
2) It was Zack who said that. If that's true, it means Cloud was feeling like Zack when Aeris died.

Either way, either Cloud is just as devastated about Aeris' death than when he thought Tifa would die, OR he wasn't devastated about Aeris' death at all since it was Zack's feelings.

So? Your point is?

When Cloud was crying there, he was devastated by loads of things, like his hometown being burned, Tifa being near-dead and him having to fight Sephiroth.

Sorry, NO. Sephiroth states that sentence AFTER Cloud says that line. So no, your interpretation is not valid.

My turn: So? Your point is?

Gee....I wonder.

You want a very nice breakdown of Cloud interactions with Tifa and Cloud's references to Aerith in Disc 2 and 3?

Look here : http://www.geocities.com/ff7lovetriangle/Preface.htm

Read it before trying to tell me that Cloud is all about Tifa in Disc 2 and 3.

Sorry, NO. Especially when you're clearly biased for Cloud x Aeris.

Same applies to Tifa, no? You can ALSO choose to tell Aerith that Tifa is NOT your girlfriend. Besides, Johnny also refers to Aerith as Cloud's 'new girlfriend' and that is NOT optional.

Aerith is also the DEFAULT DATE for Cloud. Even if you score the same affection points will Tifa, you will still go on the date with Aerith.

Let me share a tip with you, pal. The Dating Mechanism is NOT a good thing to use in debates, especially as it puts Tifa in a complete disadvantage.

Yeah, but the dating mechanism also determines the scene between Cloud and Tifa at the end of Disc 2. And I have it easier time getting on a date with Tifa than with Aeris, especially when you can get Tifa 20+ affection points before you've even met with Aeris. Besides, what YOU choose (to get Aeris) has nothing to do with me.

Oh, and when thinking about who Cloud gets, Aeris dies at the end of Disc 1, which puts her in a complete disadvantage, actually, out of the equation.

[silentchild]

I don't trust those novellas since they conflict with the game's story. Case closed.

Ok.

And Cloud didn't look especially sad when dropping Aeris.

Well, are you saying his lines :

Cloud: ...Aerith. This can't be real!
Cloud: ...Shut up. The cycle of nature and your stupid plan don't mean a thing.
Aerith is gone. Aerith will no longer talk, no longer laugh, cry...... or get
angry...... What about us...... what are WE supposed to do? What about my pain?
My fingers are tingling. My mouth is dry. My eyes are burning!
Sephiroth: What are you saying? Are you trying to tell me you have feelings too?
Cloud: Of course! Who do you think I am!?
Sephiroth: Ha, ha, ha...... Stop acting as if you were sad. There's no need to
act as though you're angry either. Because, Cloud. You are...

indicates that he is not sad? No, he is as cheerful as a buzzing bee, doing the cha-cha in samba land. Yes indeed. And his guilt and grief that carried on for TWO YEARS into AC?? He's just mourning the ballet lessons he never had. Poor Cloud.

Well, there's two choices:
1) It was Cloud who said that (which I think). If that's true, it means Cloud was devastated by the loss of Tifa and his hometown.
2) It was Zack who said that. If that's true, it means Cloud was feeling like Zack when Aeris died.

Please explain what do you mean by "Cloud was feeling like Zack when Aerith died." First off, how on earth do you know how ZACK feels? Are you Zack?

Once again, please show me evidence when stating points. I won't accept any of your 'I think' as evidence unless there is solid proof backing it up.

And if Cloud wasn't devastated by the loss of his hometown, then gee, he must be pretty feelingless. Only a blind man would say he wasn't devastated.

Either way, either Cloud is just as devastated about Aeris' death than when he thought Tifa would die, OR he wasn't devastated about Aeris' death at all since it was Zack's feelings.

Zack is not Cloud. Here is a very good essay written about it, and since you refuse to click on any links I give you, I'll nicely quote it here.

Just to note, I did not write it.

On Aeris Being Interested in Cloud For The “Zack” In Him by Carlatta

Now another argument I commonly hear against the Cloud x Aeris supporters is that Aeris was only interested in Cloud for the “Zack” in him. Now it is very understandable to believe this once the game progresses a bit, but in the end it is found this is not the case for two reasons:

1. Aeris realizes that Cloud and Zack are two very different people

We know Aeris definitely sees that Cloud is not Zack and how the two really contrast greatly in character (refer to my last post concerning this issue, I believe on page 46?) but once this is discovered does that mean Aeris is no longer interested in Cloud? The answer is no, which leads into the second reason:

2. Aeris and Zack’s relationship was either not as strong or not as important to Aeris as most gamers take it to be

This is controversial among gamers but there is actual evidence to finally support this idea.

Let’s start with number two because it will be easier to show that their relationship was not that big and then lead into why she didn’t see Cloud for the “Zack” in him. To begin Zack is first mentioned while Aeris and Cloud are sitting on top of the cat slide in sector six talking to one another. Zack was not mentioned by name but by his relation to Aeris. Here is the conversation.

Aeris "What rank were you?"
Cloud "Rank?"
Aeris "You know, in SOLDIER."
Cloud "Oh, I was...First Class."
Aeris "Just the same as him."
Cloud "The same as who?"
Aeris "My first boyfriend."
Cloud "You were... serious?"
Aeris "No. But I liked him for a while."
Cloud "I probably knew him. What was his name?"
Aeris "It doesn't really matter."

Like I said before this is the first time Zack is brought into the game and this little conversation tells a lot about her present feelings at the time. When Aeris first asks what rank Cloud is, it shows how she has already noticed some similarity between the two considering the question came a bit out of nowhere and also when looking at her response to his answer.

Aeris "Just the same as him."

It shows how she is making a comparison between the two and remembering certain things about Zack through Cloud. Cloud then goes on to ask who she is speaking of.

Aeris "My first boyfriend."

This is the first time we find out that Aeris and Zack were a pair (couple) at some time before the game actually begins. We however are not given much information on it such as how long it lasted and since she seems to speak so openly about it, her personality and mood during this period kind of shows that the whole discussion is more or less everyday conversation. Aeris is a very emotional character, so if this relationship was so serious why wouldn’t she show more emotion instead of just sitting on the slide and talking like it was just one of many memories. Wait? Was it serious?

(Continued)

Aeris "No. But I liked him for a while."

Cloud asks openly if her and Zack’s relationship “really” meant something to her and she flat out says no. Kind of a personal question, but her answer doesn’t make it seem so. She even shakes her head quickly as if to emphasis this. Actions and words both speak loud in this case. Cloud then continues seeing she isn’t deeply hurt in discussing the topic.

Cloud "I probably knew him. What was his name?"

This part I find most interesting. If Aeris was so obsessed with Zack, wouldn’t she go crazy at hearing this? Cloud might have known him, he says. Now at this point in the game we as the gamer don’t know what is to come, so all we really know, along with Aeris, is that Cloud could very well know this mysterious SOLDIER. So therefore if Cloud may know him than he also might be able to tell what happened to him, what they had done together in SOLDIER (if they happened to be old buddies), and above all else to Aeris WHERE ZACK MIGHT BE!!! Yes we later find out Zack died, but Aeris does not know this and I don’t think it is even found out on disk one at that. So shouldn’t Aeris be jumping for joy with this new hope of finding her love again? But, what’s this? What does she say?

Aeris "It doesn't really matter."

Funny, how Aeris could have told Cloud Zack’s name and perhaps with his help found Zack so she could be with him. Remember again that Aeris doesn’t know that Zack is dead and that Cloud (at this point in the game, work with me&#33 doesn’t know him. Doesn’t she even want to try? Doesn’t seem like it, does it? So does this mean that Zack didn’t mean as much to Aeris in a romantic way as we thought he did?

Not enough for some people to believe? Alright, let’s continue on in the game. The next scene in which Aeris openly talks about Zack with Cloud is at Gongaga, should you choose to have her in your party. Zack’s parents, if you go in to their house, talk about Zack (kind of unimportant) than later ask Aeris if she was this girlfriend Zack talked about in one of his letters. She leaves without saying anything and Cloud has the option to go and speak with her. Here is a part of there conversation.

(They speak about Zack and how he was Aeris’s boyfriend and all)
Cloud "Strange, there aren't that many who make First Class, but I've never heard of him."
Aeris "That's all right. It's all in the past now. I was just worried because I heard he's been missing."

That’s all in the past now. Doesn’t this confirm what I’ve said before? Right there in that statement Aeris states she has moved on from whatever her and Zack had had. The dialogue continues.

Cloud "Missing?"
Aeris "I think it was 5 years ago. He went out on a job, and never came back. He loved women, a real lady's man. He probably found someone else...”
Aeris "Hey? What's wrong?"

Now after saying this if Aeris was indeed very depressed over the whole Zack thing wouldn’t she have been quiet afterward or shown some sort of emotion? But instead she asks Cloud what’s wrong, indicating how nothing should be upsetting after having this conversation. Kind of funny how she bounces back so quickly after being very depressed over Zack. Anyway, the conversation continues.

Choice Poor guy
(jealous... envious...) [========={If you pick this one all Aeris does is tease Cloud for being jealous of Zack. Doesn’t this show how she distinguishes between the two and doesn’t see them as being the same? Just a thought, but that is not the focus so we will choose the option in Cloud x Tifa favor just for kicks}

(Continued)


Aeris "I don't really mind that I haven't heard from him. But I feel for his parents."

But if she was in love with him, wouldn’t she mind? This confirms what I have said before. Good ol` Aeris always feeling for others. She feels bad that his parents have been suffering over their son being missing, she doesn’t feel bad that she is not able to be with him because he is missing. Yes Aeris is worried about his well being, but this shows more of a friendship type relationship (if even that) that she most likely now holds toward Zack.

The big question concerning all that’s been said is probably why doesn’t Aeris find or think that it matters, as she has said a couple of times now. The answer is simple. She doesn’t find it important to dwell in the past. I remember once reading an interview with Hironobou Sakaguchi in which he said Aeris is basically the symbolism of life and living for the future. This is pretty apparent, what does Aeris always talk about? The future. She says one day she will get out of Midgar, listen to the planet and go find her promised land. Aeris tells about how much she would like to take a ride on the highwind sometime. In the temple of the ancients, she says that later the group will look back at all these hard times and laugh. Lastly, she says she would come back when it was all over. In the game, whose main theme is LIFE, the personification of it is displayed through Aeris. It’s the way the developers personally start to involve the player with the theme. Many complain about Aeris’s personality being too happy and lively but her personality was designed this way because of the life and hope for the future she displays. Zack represents the past and death. Aeris character which always looks toward the future would be breaking her symbolism by dwelling in the past and clinging to Zack.

Now I can FINALLY move onto reason number 1, but don’t worry, it won’t be quite that long. Okay so Aeris realizes Cloud and Zack are not the same person. In the beginning it is logical to believe that Aeris was initially attracted to Cloud because his gestures and SOLDIER background reminded her of Zack. This however does not mean she was obsessed with Zack, that happens to be far from the truth (as I have already explained). It was something that caught her attention, most likely reminded her of Zack, which led to wonder and curiosity. It resulted in her wanting to know more about Cloud. I remember one Cloud x Tifa supporter had said that Aeris never shows interest in getting to know Cloud. Sure she does! Think back to Cloud’s explanation of the Nibelheim incident that happened five years ago and when he goes into his old home where his mother lives.

(Continued)

Cloud "This is... my house. It has nothing to do with that incident five years ago."
Barret "Yo wait, I wanna hear."
Aeris "Me too! It's been a long time, right?"

True, Barret shows interest in Cloud’s personal past and the rest of the group perhaps does as well. Aeris, in this scene, shows a great interest in Cloud’s (not Zack’s) past. She gets excited (“Me too!”) and kind of pushes him on to discuss it (“It’s been a long time, right?”). Another example can be taken from what Marlene tells Cloud in Aeris’s house after Aeris is kidnapped.

Marlene "Guess what? Guess what? Aeris was asking me lots of questions. Like what kind of person Cloud is. I bet she likes you, Cloud!"

Aeris wants to know what kind of character he (Cloud not Zack) has. It’s apparent she has an interest in Cloud at this point and wants to know him more. Why else would she ask Marlene about him? If she thought he was Zack or whatever that concept is, wouldn’t she already know Zack good enough therefore there being no need to ask what kind of person he is? So how do we know for sure that Aeris sees Cloud and not Zack? The answer is clearly stated in this last scene I post which occurs in the gondola on Cloud and Aeris’s date.

Aeris ".........first off, it bothered me how you looked exactly alike. Two completely different people, but look exactly the same. The way you walk, gesture...I think I must have seen him again, in you..."
Aeris "But you're different."
Aeris "Things are different..."
Aeris "Cloud...I'm searching for you..."
Cloud "............?"
Aeris "I want to meet you."
Cloud "But I'm right here."
Aeris (I know, I know... what I mean is...) "I want to meet..... you."

Just like she said, she wanted to meet him....Cloud.

END ESSAY

And for the other one...

Cloud Did Not Become Zack by Carlatta

I never did understand the argument about Cloud in disk one not being the "real" Cloud and that during this time period he was more or less Zack.

Many Cloud x Tifa supporters use the fact that Cloud had his past mixed up all the while he knew Aeris and because of this Cloud was not allowed to be true to himself. The funny thing about this argument however is that memories and character are two very different aspects of a person. Character makes a person who they are and Cloud confused his memories with Zack, not his character. Proof? Zack was more of an outgoing and caring character when you see him in the few scenes of Nibelheim and him and Cloud's escape to Midgar. Zack, for example, directly gave friendship to Cloud in which Zack talked to him, kind of joked with him, and helped him when Cloud was hurt (Escape from Midgar Sequence). Cloud's character is one completely different from that shown by Zack.

Cloud, when the player first meets him in the beginning of the game, is perceived as a cold, antisocial, and uncaring person who only wants money and worries about the well-being of no one. Zack also is described by Aeris in Gongaga as being and I quote her in saying, "he loved women, a real ladies man." Cloud seems to be particularly uninterested in this specific area which can be shown from his less than enthusiastic responses to his mother's discussion concerning him getting a girlfriend in his flashback of the visit he had with her in Nibelheim. As shown in the truck on the way to Nibeheim in the real flashback sequence, Zack was talkative and caring asking how everyone was doing and if Cloud was alright with his motion sickness. Cloud in the beginning of the game basically only says what needs to be and holds a overall, "I don't care" and "It's not my problem" attitude.

If ANYTHING what only can be seen is that Cloud and Zack's personalities are almost completely contrasting. Cloud and Zack's personalities are in no way anything alike when compared with what information is given to us in the game. So then it can be concluded that the only thing that Cloud has inherited from Zack was some of his memories and gestures as well. So then the real reason most see Cloud before he "finds himself" in the lifestream as the "fake" Cloud is because his memories are mixed up and confused. This in itself brings up an interesting topic, that being does the past really make us who we are? This can be answered more by opinions but the answer to this question doesn't quite address the real issue. This issue being that just because Cloud did not know the truth about a certain part of his past does that mean he was truly incapable of loving another. Remember Cloud only had a certain part of his past mixed up, that being the Nibelheim experience five years ago and his involvement in SOLDIER. He remembered he was born in Nibelheim and not Gongaga like Zack was and Cloud also remembered bits and pieces of some conversations he had with his mother in Nibelheim.

Because of this I fail to see how Cloud's past in SOLDIER and the Nibelheim incident five years ago can affect his relationship that he had with Aeris. This was the past which had nothing to do with Aeris, she was the present. Tifa however was a part of this mixed up past. If that in itself holds a deeper meaning who's to say, that's more of the gamer's opinion.

Holy crap, that sure was long. Hope it doesn't intimidate you.

My turn: So? Your point is?

I've stated my point. Your interpretation for that sentence is not valid.

Sorry, NO. Especially when you're clearly biased for Cloud x Aeris.

I didn't make that site. It is a detailed look at the number of interactions between Cloud and Tifa and Cloud and Aeris throughout the game based on the game's script. You don't want to look at evidence I give you, fine.

And of course I'm biased Cloud and Aeris, else what on earth am I doing in here in the first place. You are pretty biased Cloud and Tifa yourself, you don't see me insulting you for favouring that pairing.

Yeah, but the dating mechanism also determines the scene between Cloud and Tifa at the end of Disc 2.

So? Let's take a look at your beloved 'Highwind scene', shall we?

Again, the following is not written by me.

Okay, let's assume we got the most date points for Tifa and got the High Affection version of the Highwind scene, just to tip things in your favour :

Last Night Under the Highwind: High Affection Version by Perceivence

An analysis of the Last Night scene should begin with Cloud’s speech in the preceding scene when he tells everyone to go find what they’re fighting for. Let’s take a closer look at that moment:



Cloud "What are we all fighting for? I want us all to understand that."

Cloud "Save the planet... for the future of the planet... Sure, that's all fine."

Cloud "But really, is that really how it is?"

Cloud "For me, this is a personal feud."

Cloud "I want to beat Sephiroth. And settle my past."

Cloud "Saving the planet just happens to be a part of that."

Cloud "I've been thinking."

….

Cloud "I think we all are fighting for ourselves."

Cloud "For ourselves... and that someone... something... whatever it is, that's important to us."

Cloud "That's what we're fighting for."

Cloud "That's why we keep up this battle for the planet."

…..

Cloud "I know why I'm fighting."

Cloud "I'm fighting to save the planet, and that's that."

Cloud "But besides that, there's something personal too..."

Cloud "A very personal memory that I have."

Cloud "What about you all?"



This is a very interesting speech that Cloud makes to the others before he tells them to leave the Highwind. During this speech, Cloud says that they are all fighting for that someone… something… whatever it is, that’s important to each of them. Then Cloud tells us why he is fighting. He says that he is fighting for a “very personal memory” that he has. Is that “very personal memory” more likely to be Aerith or Tifa?

Tifa is standing right there on the bridge of the Highwind as he is saying this to everyone, so she is not a memory. This also means that Tifa is not that special someone or something that is important to him. What is important to Cloud is this “very personal memory” of his. It becomes even clearer that Tifa is not this special someone who is important to Cloud in the next few lines.


Scene 136 - Understanding –

(The scene fades in to show Cloud and Tifa alone on the bridge.)

(Tifa is still watching the clouds go by.)

Cloud "What are you going to do, Tifa?"

(She turns to him)

Tifa "Did you forget?"

Tifa "I'm... all alone. I don't have anywhere to go."

If Tifa is that special someone or something that Cloud is fighting for, then why does he forget that she has no place to go? Cloud is obviously not even expecting Tifa to stay around. He’s expecting her to go elsewhere. Wouldn’t Cloud be expecting her to stay with him if there was anything personal going on between them, or if he had interest in a relationship with her?

It should also be noted that the name of this scene is “Understanding”, which is a rather odd title for a supposedly romantic scene.

Tifa "Everyone's gone..."

Cloud "Yeah, we don't have anywhere or anyone to go home to."

(She looks down.)

Tifa "You're right..."

Cloud generalizes the first part with “we”, which includes him and Tifa. Cloud also says that they don’t have “anyone” to go home to, which is another indication that Cloud doesn’t consider Tifa to be special to him. If Tifa were that special someone Cloud is fighting for, or if he was actually interested in a relationship with her, wouldn’t he be feeling that his home is with her?

Tifa responds first with movement - she looks down. Clearly, this has an impact on her. Does she take it as a confession from Cloud that he doesn’t have anyone to go to, including her? The ellipsis at the end of “You’re right…” would also signify that Tifa hasn’t said all that she intended to say, that there is added thought behind her statement, and/or it’s not precisely what she meant.

(A pause.)

(She looks up and straightens her hair with one hand.)

Tifa "But... I'm sure someday... they'll come back, don't you think?"

(He crosses his arms)

Cloud "Hmm... I wonder...?"

Cloud "Everyone has an irreplaceable something they're holding on to..."

Cloud "But this time, our opponent..."

(A long pause.)

(The sound of the wind fades. Tifa nods)

Cloud’s line, “But this time, our opponent… ”, seems slightly out of place to me, especially if you are trying to interpret this as a romantic scene. Cloud has just said that everyone has an irreplaceable something they’re holding on to. If Tifa is that “irreplaceable something” for Cloud, then why does he switch topic and start talking about their opponent?

Tifa "Hmm... But that's all right, even if no one comes back."

Tifa "As long as I'm with you... As long as you're by my side... I won't give up even if I'm scared."

Why this sudden confession from Tifa? Why did Tifa suddenly blurt this out? Is she prompting a response from Cloud? Is she fed up with Cloud not confirming whether he has kept his yearning for her affection as an adult?

(He uncrosses his arms and looks at Tifa.)

Cloud "... Tifa..."

(She moves her arms behind her.)

Cloud’s response is just her name flanked by ellipsis. Why? Why doesn’t he say “me too”? Tifa is being rather bold about this whole issue and is apparently trying to prompt a response from him. If Cloud loves her, then why doesn’t he say it? Isn’t this his best chance to say it? There’s a pretty good chance that they won’t survive the battle with Sephiroth. Surely he realizes that… Tifa certainly does… yet he doesn’t take this opportunity to go along with the conversation and admit it. Would he rather just bring it up out of the blue?

Tifa "No matter how close we are... We were far apart... before this."

Tifa "But when we were in the Lifestream surrounded by all those screams of anguish, I thought I heard your voice..."

(She closes her eyes, crying softly. Her arms fall to her sides and she bows her head.)

Tifa "...sniff... you probably don't remember this..."

Tifa "But deep in my heart I heard you calling my name... Or at least I thought I did..."

The third and fourth lines that Tifa says are clearly prompted by her thinking that Cloud may not remember this for some reason. Why? Probably an important hint as to why she says this is her “sniff”. Is she crying because she believes Cloud has forgotten it for some reason? What is it?

(Cloud looks away and puts a hand to his face)

Cloud "Yeah... At that time I heard you calling me."

Cloud "You were calling me back in from the stream of consciousness in the Lifestream."

(He lowers his hand. He nods)

Cloud "After all, I promised. That if anything were to ever happen to you, I would come to help."

Why the hand to his face?

Cloud puts to rest her doubts that he heard her with the “Yeah...at that time I heard you calling me”. Then he proceeds to say what the purpose of her calling was: “You were calling me back in from … the Lifestream.” Cloud follows this comment with a nod of affirmation. An affirmation of what? Tifa isn’t even looking at him at this point. Is he affirming to himself that this is what he truly remembers? That what he says after is the best thing to say next?

Cloud goes on to further explain why she heard his voice. Not leaving any doubts, eh Cloud? Interestingly, though, the reason does not involve anything about love or his closeness to her. It only has to do with keeping the childhood promise. Does he save this confession for later on?

(Tifa opens her eyes and looks up.)

Tifa "Cloud...? Do you think the stars can hear us?"

(She gazes off to one side)

Tifa "Do you think they see how hard we're fighting for them?"

Tifa changes the conversation without Cloud having said anything that resembles her “As long as I'm with you” line in either structure or meaning.


(Cloud looks up at the sky.)

Cloud "I dunno... But..."

Cloud "Whether they are or not, we still have to do what we can. And believe in ourselves..."

Cloud "Someday we'll find the answer. Right, Tifa?"

Cloud "That's what I learned from you when I was in the Lifestream."


Then Cloud’s quasi-philosophical response to her question - that they must believe in themselves, which is a theme often portrayed in anime and RPG’s. He follows this with the “Someday we’ll find the answer. Right, Tifa?” line. The answer to what? Tifa’s question? Perhaps… but that is apparently not what he’s referring to. He’s apparently referring to an answer within themselves, which is supported by his following line about learning that from the Lifestream. This is also clearly a more useful issue to find the answer to than whether or not the stars can see how hard they’re being fought for.

(She nods)

Tifa "Yeah... that's right..."


Nothing more than a tentative affirmation of what Cloud said….

Now for the most enigmatic part of this scene.

(Cloud stares off into the distance. He turns away from her slightly and lowers his head.)

Cloud "Hey, Tifa... I... There are a lot of things I wanted to talk to you about."

(He shakes his head slowly.)

To what is Cloud referring to with “a lot of things”? And when did he want to talk to her about these things? “Wanted” is in the past tense. It signifies that, at some point in the past and NOT in the present, he wanted to talk to Tifa about a lot of things (not just one thing). But when is he referring to?

If one considers this part of the dialogue to be a continuation of the previous part about the Lifestream Event, then Cloud would be referring to any time related to that Event. This would include his childhood, the time period from his childhood to the Reunion, or while he was comatose from overexposure to the Lifestream. It may also be referring to what actually took place within the Lifestream Event, as well as what happened afterwards, a time when there would be sudden revelations and questions about it.

1. The childhood time period is very plausible - as a child with no friends, Cloud would obviously have wanted to tell the girl he had a crush on, if ever he got to be her friend, a lot of the things he thought in general etc. It makes sense for Cloud to tell her these things now: there may still be childhood experiences he wishes to share and perhaps how he felt about her at that time.

2. Referring to the period during which he was comatose and those childhood memories would not fit unless they were in relation to the events within the Lifestream Incident. This would make sense if relating his actions to what happened in that scene. The problem with this, however, would be that all these things could fall into the next point: things he wanted to say immediately after the scene.

3. Shortly after the Lifestream Incident may be the most logical one, since it’s very likely that he’s had further thoughts about what happened during that time.

Cloud "But now that we're together like this, I don't know what I really wanted to say..."

Cloud "I guess nothing's changed at all... Kind of makes you want to laugh..."

Now many Cloud x Tifa supporters take this part to be hinting at a confession of love. It doesn’t appear to fit, though: he just had the opportunity to shamelessly confess it earlier when Tifa went all mushy about being alright at his side. Plus, Cloud would surely know what he wanted to say, if that were the case, although maybe not how to say it.

If one believes that Cloud is referring to thoughts he had about her in childhood, it can make sense - he wants to tell Tifa about his childhoood and things he wanted to tell her back then. This seems unlikely, though, because these things are age old and it would appear that he has cleared what misconceptions he had then. Besides, Cloud already discussed those past feelings with her during the Lifestream Event.

Even if Cloud is referring to his past feelings for her, we saw in the Lifestream Event that his most predominant feeling from childhood regarding Tifa was his guilt over letting her fall at the bridge. Is he perhaps wanting to make a proper apology for that?

The third possibility would appear the most supported - he wants to talk to Tifa about his thoughts after the Lifestream Event. After all, it fits in with the context of the conversation they’ve been having. It makes perfect sense that he would want to talk to Tifa more about their experience in the Lifestream, and natural that he’d have further questions about it. That also agrees with the plural “things” that we see here. The “Love Confession Theory” proposes that he’s talking about his love for her, but would that not be only one thing?

(Tifa shakes her head)

Tifa "Cloud... Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking..."

The infamous line. Clearly, Tifa has arrived at a conclusion based on what Cloud didn’t say.. But to what is she alluding? Some people jump to say that she’s saying that Cloud has confessed his love for her without those words being spoken. This doesn’t seem to follow, though, since Cloud’s dialogue here would have confirmed that this is not the case. Cloud hasn’t taken any of the opportunities to show reciprocation of his love for her and has offered alternate reasons for things that Tifa, apparently, thought were signs of his love for her.

This is the scene where Tifa confesses her love for Cloud. It is also, apparently, the scene where Tifa tries to get a similar confession from him… yet, she doesn’t. Is this absence of a confession what she’s referring to? Is she also referring to the lack of change in Cloud’s attitude towards her after the Lifestream event, a change showing that he has returned to his childhood feelings towards her?

What is not said is at times more telling than what is said… and what is not done more significant than that which is.

(Cloud looks at her. She continues to stare past the player, into space. She straightens her hair again with one hand.)

Cloud “........”

Tifa is evidently concealing her feelings now (she was crying before, but shows no such thing now), so we don’t really know what effect anything Cloud has said, or not said, has had on her.

And Cloud uses what is apparently one of his favorite responses. Cloud has nothing to say to Tifa’s statement… but why? If indeed Tifa was referring to him not expressing feelings of romantic love to her in any form and he realizes this, then it can be seen as a silent affirmation of what she says.

If Tifa is referring to him loving her and showing it, then we have a silence that is apparently out of place - why would Cloud remain silent and motionless if she’s referring to such a love? Is there anything that can be conclusively interpreted from his silence?

(She closes her eyes. The camera pans up, past her, to the sky, as the scene fades to black.)

Then Tifa closes her eyes in…what? Closes her eyes in relief? Closes her eyes in sorrow? In despair?

In relief: This is unlikely. Tifa is open here - she confesses love for Cloud as blatantly as one can without saying “I love you”. If it were relief that he did love her, then why stop there? Why not continue in this air of openness and approach him? Or open her eyes in relief?

In sorrow: this is very plausible. Cloud has not responded to Tifa in any way to show that he still has the childhood crush that he had for her when he was younger. He has not shown her that he loves her romantically now. She has tried coercing him with subtleties and blatancies in dialogue, yet he doesn’t respond. There is much reason for someone in love with another to be sad after realizing that her feelings aren’t reciprocated.

In despair: basically the same as in sorrow but slightly deeper. ‘Tis what is very possibly the final night that they will live, yet there has been no confession from Cloud of love for her. What is she to think?

Scene 137 - Last Morning -

(The scene fades in once more to the grassy hill. It is still mostly dark out, but the hint of a sun is glowing beyond the horizon. Cloud and Tifa are seated on a small rise in the ground. Tifa is resting her head on his shoulder; both are dozing. Cloud lifts his head slightly.)

Cloud "...It's almost dawn..."

Tifa "H, huh...?"

(He lifts his head further, just enough so that he can look at her.)

Cloud "Sorry. Did I wake you...? It's almost dawn, Tifa."

(She lifts her head off his shoulder and looks around sleepily.)

Tifa "Umm... G, good morning... Cloud."

Now, isn’t it unusual that Tifa stutters? If she had spent a night in Cloud’s loving embrace, as some people speculate, then why would she be stuttering? If there was mutual love reciprocated between them the night before, it’s far more likely that she would be lovingly gazing into his eyes rather than stuttering.

Tifa "Give me a little longer... Just a little bit longer..."

(She rests her head on his shoulder again.)

Tifa "This day will never come again... So let me have this moment..."

Possible interpretations:

1. They had sex.

2. They spent the night in a loving embrace. This is unlikely, however, since Cloud isn’t touching her now, and Tifa is stuttering.

3. Tifa is referring to their upcoming fight with Sephiroth. Since they may die, she isn’t in a hurry to get there.

4. She knows that she’ll never have an opportunity to be with Cloud like this again.

(He nods)

Cloud "Yeah... okay."

(He lowers his head again.)

Cloud “This is probably the last time we'll have together..."

Cloud agrees and supports her statement. Cloud/Tifa supporters see this as an indication that they love each other. Yet, Cloud’s behavior doesn’t indicate it. Wouldn’t Cloud say the same thing if they had gained a better understanding of one another during the evening, and had become closer friends in the process? And wouldn’t that interpretation fit with the title of the previous scene, which is “Understanding”?

I’ve included part of the scene from the following morning, the part that pertains to this scene and gives some insight as to what followed it. The next passage doesn’t reveal anything unusual.


(The scene fades in to show the Highwind hovering in the bright morning sky. The camera pans back down to the hill. Cloud is still sitting down; Tifa has risen and is gazing up at the Highwind, her hands behind her back. After a few moments, she drops her hands and shakes her head.)

Tifa “....”

(Cloud stands.)

Cloud "We'd better go."

(She turns to him and makes a pleading gesture.)

Tifa "But, I still...!?"

(He turns to face her, shaking his head.)

Cloud "It's all right, Tifa. You said so yourself yesterday."

Cloud "At least we don't have to go on alone."

(A pause. Tifa nods)

Tifa"Yes... That's right!"

(He nods)

Cloud "Okay! Let's go!"

(They walk together toward the Highwind.

It begins to lower to the ground as the scene fades.

It fades back in to show the walkway to the bridge.

Tifa is following Cloud.)


Scene 138 - We Shall Fight Together -

Tifa "The airship is too big for just the two of us."

Tifa "Yeah, it's a little lonely without everyone."

This strikes me as an awfully strange thing for Tifa to say IF she and Cloud had actually had a romantic encounter the night before. Why would someone who has just spent a romantic night and discovered love with another the preceding night be feeling lonely with him? If anything, a person in such a situation would want to be finding time alone with their new partner.

(Cloud turns around to face her.)

Cloud "Don't worry. It'll be okay."

(He does his squat-thrusts.)

Cloud "I'll make a big enough ruckus for everyone."

(He stops and straightens his hair.)

Cloud “Besides, I'm the pilot."

Cloud "No more flying around casually like before."

Cloud "We won't have time to feel lonely."

Now Cloud is talking about both of them feeling lonely without the others around. Again, isn’t this an awfully strange thing for two people to be saying IF they had actually discovered their love for one another the night before?

(She nods. A long pause. Suddenly, the entire Highwind shakes as the engines fire up.)

Tifa "Huh!?"

(She looks around.)

Cloud "It's moving..."

(They dash to the bridge. They find Cait Sith dozing in one corner. They run past him and find Barret and Cid working with the pilot's controls.)

Cloud "Barret! Cid!"

(Barret turns and looks at Cloud, then at Tifa, then back to Cloud)

Barret "O, oh... is that okay with you?"

(He looks at Cloud...then at Tifa...then back at Cloud, then asks Cloud if "that" is okay with him. This "that" is most certainly the moving Highwind (nothing else it can be).

(Red XIII runs up to them from offscreen.)

Cloud "Red XIII!"

(Cloud and Tifa look back to Barret.)

Tifa "Why didn't you tell me!?"

Tell her what? That they decided to return and continue their quest, it would appear.

(Red XIII looks at Cid, who still is operating the controls.)

Red XIII "But, you know, Cid."

(He looks at Cloud. Cid leaves the controls and stares at Red XIII.)

Cid "Hey, Red XIII."

Cid "If you butt in now, you never know what they'll say later..."

Tifa "...Were you watching?"

(They watch her as she runs away, clutches her head and falls to the floor in embarrassment. Vincent enters the bridge. All except Tifa turn to see him enter.)

Now this part is odd. Watching what? Butt into what? Why be so enigmatic?

This is apparently the part that has some people thinking that Cloud and Tifa had sex...but why, exactly? The vagueness of their dialogue is one fairly good reason to think that that's the reason...but why is the dialogue vague? Society tends to make multiple synonyms for things or terms that it feels uncomfortable or embarrassed about. We also refer to embarrassing things solely with pronouns to remove their embarrassment level. It would appear that this is what is happening here - Cid is trying to reduce the embarrassment of this scene by only hinting to it...but what is he hinting to?

Let's consider why she may be embarrassed:

1. Sex - The most popularly believed reason. I don't think that this is it because it just doesn't seem to fit. Tifa is visibly quite embarrassed, while Cloud does nothing. Also, judging from the dialogue before the night ended this doesn't appear a likely ending to the scenario.

2. Tears - Tifa, realizing that Cloud doesn't love her as she does him, breaks down in tears. Cloud comforts her.

These are the most likely reasons for her embarrassment. Why would she be embarrassed if there was mutual love displayed between them the night before? If that were the case, then Cloud would be supportive… but he is not. If that were the case, there would be no reason for embarrassment.

Absolutely nothing conclusive has been shown in these scenes. Any conclusions made by the player are made totally by inference. Cloud has made no commitment to Tifa. His response of “………” to Tifa’s statement of “Words aren’t the only thing that tell people what you’re thinking” is open to the interpretation of the player. There are several reasons why Tifa could be embarrassed the next morning, including embarrassment over being upset when Cloud turns her down.

It must also be remembered that other versions of this scene exist, since the outcome of this scene is governed by Tifa’s affection rating with Cloud. Regardless of how it is played, these scenes show absolutely no conclusive evidence of Cloud’s affection for Tifa.

And I have it easier time getting on a date with Tifa than with Aeris, especially when you can get Tifa 20+ affection points before you've even met with Aeris. Besides, what YOU choose (to get Aeris) has nothing to do with me.

Wheter or not you have an easier time getting points with Tifa has nothing to do with me as well.
Does this change the fact that Aerith is the default date?
NO.

Oh, and when thinking about who Cloud gets, Aeris dies at the end of Disc 1, which puts her in a complete disadvantage, actually, out of the equation.

Are you saying that love cannot transcend borders such as death? Are you saying that spiritual bonds mean nothing? Are you telling me that Yuna is a fool for still loving Tidus even after two years? Are you saying Shuyin is an idiot for continuing to love Lenne after 1000 years? Are you telling me that a physical relationship is the *only way* two people can share a bond and love each other?

If that is what you are saying, I rest my case.

[Sefie1999AD]

Ok.

Well, are you saying his lines :

indicates that he is not sad? No, he is as cheerful as a buzzing bee, doing the cha-cha in samba land. Yes indeed. And his guilt and grief that carried on for TWO YEARS into AC?? He's just mourning the ballet lessons he never had. Poor Cloud.

I said when Cloud was DROPPING AERIS TO THE LAKE. Cloud wasn't uttering the lines you just quoted during the FMV when Aeris dropped there. Oh, and one more thing. In RPGs, the player can be the main character and create extra stuff about how they feel. So if some people, who are playing the game, find it hilarious and laugh when Aeris dies, that's how they can decide the characters to feel. The game can show Cloud was sad. But the gamer can decide he was pretending to be sad.

Please explain what do you mean by "Cloud was feeling like Zack when Aerith died." First off, how on earth do you know how ZACK feels? Are you Zack?

Yes, I am. And since Zack part of Cloud is the only thing that was attracted to Aeris, only the Zack part would grieve.

Once again, please show me evidence when stating points. I won't accept any of your 'I think' as evidence unless there is solid proof backing it up.

Evidence? Unlike you, I'm posting my opinions, not trying to force facts down someone's throat. So please stop pouring your so called facts down my throat as I'm not taking them.

And if Cloud wasn't devastated by the loss of his hometown, then gee, he must be pretty feelingless. Only a blind man would say he wasn't devastated.

And he was devastated by what happened to Tifa. Still you said he wasn't sad at all about what happened to Tifa.

Zack is not Cloud. Here is a very good essay written about it, and since you refuse to click on any links I give you, I'll nicely quote it here.

Holy crap, that sure was long. Hope it doesn't intimidate you.

Yeah, it sure was. That's why I didn't even bother reading it. After talking with SoS, I got bored of super-long FF essays and decide to just trust myself and what I think happens in the game because
1) Square Enix never said that I'm not allowed to view the games that way.
2) In all kind of analysis, the reader can make his/her own interpretations and say that's what s/he thinks.
3) Those essays are just boring me, forcing me to scroll down these forums, waste a lot of my time, and eventually, they give me nothing new or useful.

I've stated my point. Your interpretation for that sentence is not valid.

See above, point 2).

I didn't make that site. It is a detailed look at the number of interactions between Cloud and Tifa and Cloud and Aeris throughout the game based on the game's script. You don't want to look at evidence I give you, fine.

There's ways to alter the script, by throwing Aeris out of your party and putting Tifa in. Or ditching them both and having Yuffie and Barret shine. Doesn't count as evidence, either.

And of course I'm biased Cloud and Aeris, else what on earth am I doing in here in the first place. You are pretty biased Cloud and Tifa yourself, you don't see me insulting you for favouring that pairing.

Right, only you're saying my opinions are invalid and that your opinions are facts and evidence.

So? Let's take a look at your beloved 'Highwind scene', shall we?

Again, the following is not written by me.

Okay, let's assume we got the most date points for Tifa and got the High Affection version of the Highwind scene, just to tip things in your favour :

Wheter or not you have an easier time getting points with Tifa has nothing to do with me as well.
Does this change the fact that Aerith is the default date?
NO.

Yep, but it doesn't mean you'd ever have to date Aeris. You don't really even have to have her in your party at all during the game, except for:
1) When she and Cloud escape the church in Midgar until Sector VII invasion.
2) Temple of Ancients.

And nobody's stopping me from using GameShark to force-change her out of my party.

Are you saying that love cannot transcend borders such as death? Are you saying that spiritual bonds mean nothing? Are you telling me that Yuna is a fool for still loving Tidus even after two years? Are you saying Shuyin is an idiot for continuing to love Lenne after 1000 years? Are you telling me that a physical relationship is the *only way* two people can share a bond and love each other?

If that is what you are saying, I rest my case.

People here have been mostly talking about romantic love. And if Cloud has any romantic feelings for a corpse, then... eww, if that's what you're saying, I rest my case.

[TurkSlayer]

indicates that he is not sad? No, he is as cheerful as a buzzing bee, doing the cha-cha in samba land. Yes indeed. And his guilt and grief that carried on for TWO YEARS into AC?? He's just mourning the ballet lessons he never had. Poor Cloud.

Of course he's sad. His friend just died, anyone would be sad about that. What he's saying is that he wasn't absolutely devastated by it.

And if Cloud wasn't devastated by the loss of his hometown, then gee, he must be pretty feelingless. Only a blind man would say he wasn't devastated.

Of course he was. He was also devastated by the loss of his mother and Tifa, both of which he put before his home. This means he puts Tifa near the same level as is his mother.

Zack is not Cloud. Here is a very good essay written about it, and since you refuse to click on any links I give you, I'll nicely quote it here.

All right, I read this, and your correct, he is not Zack. At least, not entirely.

Aeris ".........first off, it bothered me how you looked exactly alike. Two completely different people, but look exactly the same. The way you walk, gesture...I think I must have seen him again, in you..."
Aeris "But you're different."
Aeris "Things are different..."
Aeris "Cloud...I'm searching for you..."
Cloud "............?"
Aeris "I want to meet you."
Cloud "But I'm right here."
Aeris (I know, I know... what I mean is...) "I want to meet..... you."

By the first line, it suggests that Aeris was at first attracted to him because of the ways he was like Zack. "I think I must have seen him again, in you..." This is basically say that this is what she first saw in him, and why she liked him. The last few lines, speaking of meeting the real Cloud, seem to suggest that didn't ever really meet him. While Zack's personality seems quite different from Cloud's (Which we know from the few scenes Zack was in), Aeris still seems to think that they were enough alike that she really never met Cloud.

Aeris "What rank were you?"
Cloud "Rank?"
Aeris "You know, in SOLDIER."
Cloud "Oh, I was...First Class."
Aeris "Just the same as him."
Cloud "The same as who?"
Aeris "My first boyfriend."
Cloud "You were... serious?"
Aeris "No. But I liked him for a while."
Cloud "I probably knew him. What was his name?"
Aeris "It doesn't really matter."

Like I said before this is the first time Zack is brought into the game and this little conversation tells a lot about her present feelings at the time. When Aeris first asks what rank Cloud is, it shows how she has already noticed some similarity between the two considering the question came a bit out of nowhere and also when looking at her response to his answer.

Aeris "Just the same as him."

It shows how she is making a comparison between the two and remembering certain things about Zack through Cloud. Cloud then goes on to ask who she is speaking of.

Aeris "My first boyfriend."

This is the first time we find out that Aeris and Zack were a pair (couple) at some time before the game actually begins. We however are not given much information on it such as how long it lasted and since she seems to speak so openly about it, her personality and mood during this period kind of shows that the whole discussion is more or less everyday conversation. Aeris is a very emotional character, so if this relationship was so serious why wouldn’t she show more emotion instead of just sitting on the slide and talking like it was just one of many memories. Wait? Was it serious?

(Continued)

Aeris "No. But I liked him for a while."

Cloud asks openly if her and Zack’s relationship “really” meant something to her and she flat out says no. Kind of a personal question, but her answer doesn’t make it seem so. She even shakes her head quickly as if to emphasis this. Actions and words both speak loud in this case. Cloud then continues seeing she isn’t deeply hurt in discussing the topic.

Cloud "I probably knew him. What was his name?"

This part I find most interesting. If Aeris was so obsessed with Zack, wouldn’t she go crazy at hearing this? Cloud might have known him, he says. Now at this point in the game we as the gamer don’t know what is to come, so all we really know, along with Aeris, is that Cloud could very well know this mysterious SOLDIER. So therefore if Cloud may know him than he also might be able to tell what happened to him, what they had done together in SOLDIER (if they happened to be old buddies), and above all else to Aeris WHERE ZACK MIGHT BE!!! Yes we later find out Zack died, but Aeris does not know this and I don’t think it is even found out on disk one at that. So shouldn’t Aeris be jumping for joy with this new hope of finding her love again? But, what’s this? What does she say?

Aeris "It doesn't really matter."

Funny, how Aeris could have told Cloud Zack’s name and perhaps with his help found Zack so she could be with him. Remember again that Aeris doesn’t know that Zack is dead and that Cloud (at this point in the game, work with me&#33 doesn’t know him. Doesn’t she even want to try? Doesn’t seem like it, does it? So does this mean that Zack didn’t mean as much to Aeris in a romantic way as we thought he did?

Lets think back for a minute, when Cloud and the group speak to Aeris's mother about Aeris. Her mother says that she was able to feel her husband's death. So, why wouldn't she be able to feel Zack's death? She probably be able to sense it, considering she could sense someone she never even knew. I doubt anyone would want to be reminded too much of someone they had lost. I haven't seen AC yet, but from what I've heard, Cloud begins to blame himself over again after receiving a gift from Aeris's mother. Obviously, he didn't want to be reminded. So why would Aeris?

(They speak about Zack and how he was Aeris’s boyfriend and all)
Cloud "Strange, there aren't that many who make First Class, but I've never heard of him."
Aeris "That's all right. It's all in the past now. I was just worried because I heard he's been missing."

That’s all in the past now. Doesn’t this confirm what I’ve said before? Right there in that statement Aeris states she has moved on from whatever her and Zack had had. The dialogue continues.

Cloud "Missing?"
Aeris "I think it was 5 years ago. He went out on a job, and never came back. He loved women, a real lady's man. He probably found someone else...”
Aeris "Hey? What's wrong?"

Now after saying this if Aeris was indeed very depressed over the whole Zack thing wouldn’t she have been quiet afterward or shown some sort of emotion? But instead she asks Cloud what’s wrong, indicating how nothing should be upsetting after having this conversation. Kind of funny how she bounces back so quickly after being very depressed over Zack. Anyway, the conversation continues.

Choice Poor guy
(jealous... envious...) [========={If you pick this one all Aeris does is tease Cloud for being jealous of Zack. Doesn’t this show how she distinguishes between the two and doesn’t see them as being the same? Just a thought, but that is not the focus so we will choose the option in Cloud x Tifa favor just for kicks}

(Continued)


Aeris "I don't really mind that I haven't heard from him. But I feel for his parents."

But if she was in love with him, wouldn’t she mind? This confirms what I have said before. Good ol` Aeris always feeling for others. She feels bad that his parents have been suffering over their son being missing, she doesn’t feel bad that she is not able to be with him because he is missing. Yes Aeris is worried about his well being, but this shows more of a friendship type relationship (if even that) that she most likely now holds toward Zack.

The big question concerning all that’s been said is probably why doesn’t Aeris find or think that it matters, as she has said a couple of times now. The answer is simple. She doesn’t find it important to dwell in the past. I remember once reading an interview with Hironobou Sakaguchi in which he said Aeris is basically the symbolism of life and living for the future. This is pretty apparent, what does Aeris always talk about? The future. She says one day she will get out of Midgar, listen to the planet and go find her promised land. Aeris tells about how much she would like to take a ride on the highwind sometime. In the temple of the ancients, she says that later the group will look back at all these hard times and laugh. Lastly, she says she would come back when it was all over. In the game, whose main theme is LIFE, the personification of it is displayed through Aeris. It’s the way the developers personally start to involve the player with the theme. Many complain about Aeris’s personality being too happy and lively but her personality was designed this way because of the life and hope for the future she displays. Zack represents the past and death. Aeris character which always looks toward the future would be breaking her symbolism by dwelling in the past and clinging to Zack.

If what I suggested before was correct and she had felt him die, of course she wouldn't mind him not contacting her. After all, that fairly difficult after death. The stuff about him being a "ladie's man" was simply an excuse not to talk about her power. (Which I don't believe she knew that Cloud knew about it) She had moved on, yes, as most people do. People in reality get married to people they really love, and after they die, they move on in time. Of course, another reason for her to move on was that she had found someone else who was like him.


So? Let's take a look at your beloved 'Highwind scene', shall we?

Again, the following is not written by me.

Okay, let's assume we got the most date points for Tifa and got the High Affection version of the Highwind scene, just to tip things in your favour :

I don't have time to dscuss this one, but I probably will a little later.

Are you saying that love cannot transcend borders such as death? Are you saying that spiritual bonds mean nothing? Are you telling me that Yuna is a fool for still loving Tidus even after two years? Are you saying Shuyin is an idiot for continuing to love Lenne after 1000 years? Are you telling me that a physical relationship is the *only way* two people can share a bond and love each other?

If that is what you are saying, I rest my case.

Yuna was never entirely sure what happened to Tidus (He never explained the dream thing to them), so for all she knew, he was still alive. That was kind of the point of her journey in X-2 in the first place because she thought he was still alive. As for Shuyin and Lenne, well, I never got more than half way through the game, so I don't know much about them.

[Pivi]

Woah, how can You all write this much...?

And I don't really get Your point. Are we arguing if Cloud loved Aerith and not Tifa in FF7...? What is it have to do with Advent Children...?

What I see from the compilation, is Cloud had a childhood crush on Tifa, which is a very emotional feeling for him. If Aerith would not come in the picture, then Cloud and Tifa would definetly become a couple.
But Aerith came, and Cloud fell in love with her. They would have been a very nice couple, but Aerith died. After that, Cloud was depressed, thus, he lost his lover, and he did not end up with Tifa in the game.

Meanwhile, Aerith's "spirit" is wandering in the lifestream, she interacts with everyone, and she meets up with Zack (Maiden over the Planet). They interacts (possible Zeris hints there, but nothing solid proof), and after some time, they actually watch the whole lifestream scene, where Tifa helps Cloud get himself together.
After that scene, Zack says:
"Cloud got the girl now"
And Aerith says at the end that although she's a little bit jealous, but she leaves Cloud and the world at Tifa's care.
So from this, it is very much clear, that Aerith lets go of Cloud.

After the game, Cloud started to let go of Aerith's memory (talking about Case of Tifa now), and started to live his life with Tifa, Barret and the children, and with time, he even started to show some affection for Tifa (I consider this as he has romantical feelings for her, but he can't let them out, until Aerith's memory still inside him as a guilt). The problem is that he couldn't let go of his guilt completely, so Cloud and Tifa did not get much closer in their relationship. Yes, I see romantical love from both sides, but Aerith's memory is still in the way.

After that, came the movie, where it was shown, how Cloud lets go of his guilt, and at the end, he lets go of Aerith. Of course, he will remember her forever, and she'll have a place in Cloud's heart as a lost loved one, but Cloud now can move forward, and this suggests a very big posssibility for Cloud & Tifa, because Cloud can let his feelings out for her.

This ends Cloud's story.
What happens in the future, is based on our imagination, and if Cloud and Tifa will properly get together, is also the sound of the future, but I see a big possibility for them.

Well, that's it for now, I hope my explanation isn't too chaotic... The truth is that I'm awfully sleepy now, and I used to mess up my english grammar, when I'm tired...

[TurkSlayer]

Yep, but it doesn't mean you'd ever have to date Aeris. You don't really even have to have her in your party at all during the game, except for:
1) When she and Cloud escape the church in Midgar until Sector VII invasion.
2) Temple of Ancients.

Ah, thank you, I forgot to point this out. Yes, unless you have Aeris in your party all the time, Cloud and Aeris have almost NO interaction besides the two parts mentioned, unlike Cloud and Tifa, who have a few in the first disk, and Many later on.

And Pivi, what we're arguing about really is wether Cloud actually loved Aeris at all, which i don't believe he did.

[Snake Eyes]

And Pivi, what we're arguing about really is wether Cloud actually loved Aeris at all, which i don't believe he did.

Which is quite interesting since this topic seems to revolve around Cloud and Tifa and not Cloud and Aerith. The title did say, " The relationship between Cloud and Tifa".

[silentchild]

Pivi - do you believe the ending to be pro-Cloti or pro-Cleris?

[Pivi]

And Pivi, what we're arguing about really is wether Cloud actually loved Aeris at all, which i don't believe he did.

I see. Well, I think he loved her...

Pivi - do you believe the ending to be pro-Cloti or pro-Cleris?

The game, or the movie...?
Well, the game was Cleris for me (as I remember), and the movie was closure of Cleris with a big possibility of Cloti in the future.

[silentchild]

The game, or the movie...?
Well, the game was Cleris for me (as I remember), and the movie was closure of Cleris with a big possibility of Cloti in the future.

I was referring to the movie but thanks for replying.

You say there's a big possibility for Cloti? Isn't that just what it is, a possibility? What evidence shows that Cloti *will* eventually happen? As far as we saw in CoT, a relationship between Cloud and Tifa did not work out. What makes you think it will work now? Where did we see Cloud reciprocate Tifa's feelings towards him?

Since you claim that

So all in all, I think Cloud wants to get over Aerith, but he can't do this without her forgiveness. He will always have a part in his heart for Aerith, but not all of his heart as a "one and only" love.

Why does this qualify as Cloti? Doesn't keeping Aerith in his heart qualify as 'Cleris'? So you are implying that his heart remains with Aerith but his physical moves on with Tifa? Spiritual love goes deeper than physical love, am I right?

Anything that will happen between Cloud and Tifa after AC is mainly up to one's own imagination. You can write fanfics and draw fanarts about it all you like, but it is not canon. Ambiguity is one of the main reasons which made FF7 so popular.

[Pivi]

You say there's a big possibility for Cloti? Isn't that just what it is, a possibility? What evidence shows that Cloti *will* eventually happen?

Yes, of course nothing states that it will happen. That's why I said it's a big possibility, and it's based on our imagination.
What is clear at the end of AC, is that Cloud is single, and he do not struggle anymore. Everything else is based on small hints, but nothing solid proof.

As far as we saw in CoT, a relationship between Cloud and Tifa did not work out. What makes you think it will work now? Where did we see Cloud reciprocate Tifa's feelings towards him?

Well, the relationship between Cloud and Tifa did not work out well in CoT, because Cloud did not let go of Aerith (although Aerith did let go of Cloud).
But that is what the movie is about. How Cloud moves forward, how he let go of Aerith and his guilt.
And Cloud actually has some romantical feelings toward Tifa, but he has to acknoledge these feelings, and he has to let them out for her. And because the guilt for Aerith is not in the way anyomre, that's why I see a big possibility for them now.

Why does this qualify as Cloti? Doesn't keeping Aerith in his heart qualify as 'Cleris'?

Well, I think You mix up romantical feelings with not romantical feelings. Actually, in my interpretation, Cloud let go his romantical feelings for Aerith at the end of the movie (together with his guilt). Keeping her in his heart does not mean that he's eternally in love with her.
It's like he lost his loved one, and he'll remember her forever, but he can move forward, and he can fall in love romantically with another girl. Which he actually started with Tifa. Started.

So what he feels for Aerith, is much more a parental kind of love, not a romantical one.

Anything that will happen between Cloud and Tifa after AC is mainly up to one's own imagination. You can write fanfics and draw fanarts about it all you like, but it is not canon. Ambiguity is one of the main reasons which made FF7 so popular.

Yes, I agree with this one. I never stated anythink like Cloud and Tifa are canon. In the first hand, there's no canon couple in FF7. Nor Cloud x Aerith, nor Cloud x Tifa.

[TurkSlayer]

Which is quite interesting since this topic seems to revolve around Cloud and Tifa and not Cloud and Aerith. The title did say, " The relationship between Cloud and Tifa".

That's true, but we are currently arguing about both. Sephiroth1999AD and myself don't believe he ever rally loved Aeris, while silentchild argues that he did, and never loved Tifa.

[silentchild]

But that is what the movie is about. How Cloud moves forward, how he let go of Aerith and his guilt.

Letting go of his guilt does not mean he stops loving Aerith, and it doesn't mean falling in love with another woman. Letting go of his guilt just means that Cloud won't beat himself up anymore over something that was never his fault to begin with.

And because the guilt for Aerith is not in the way anyomre, that's why I see a big possibility for them now.

The possibility does exist, I agree with you on that one. However, the possibility that Cloud will continue loving Aerith with a full heart rather that one laden by misplaced guilt also exists. Where have we seen Cloud make any clear move towards Tifa indicating that he was ready to try starting a life with her, and move on from Aerith?

This is why the Cleris possibility still holds ground.

Keeping her in his heart does not mean that he's eternally in love with her.
It's like he lost his loved one, and he'll remember her forever, but he can move forward, and he can fall in love romantically with another girl. Which he actually started with Tifa. Started.

I assume you are referrring to the beginning of CoT? How do you know that things will go back as they were? You say this assuming that guilt over Aerith was the sole reason for Cloud and Tifa's 'stunted' romance in CoT, and now that it's gone, you assume things will go back to the way they supposedly were.

But how do you know it's not because he realised that he still loved Aerith? What if he thought he could love Tifa, but eventually realised that things weren't working out? People don't always know what they want in love and life, and what if Cloud realised he'd made a mistake? And what if the delivery to the Forgotten City was the reality check that he still loved Aerith?

When I read CoT, it seemed to me that the incompatibility factor was what drove Cloud and Tifa apart. They were not even in a relationship then, but already they couldn't tolerate each other.
Tifa was obsessed with her family life, but that wasn't the way Cloud was comfortable with. He felt freeer doing his own things, roaming the world. He apologizes to Tifa for every little thing, like a little kid being caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He hides things from her, not telling her anything. When Tifa makes advances on him, he gives her dubious looks. He stays away from home for long periods of time. Tifa feels aggravated and frustrated with him. Even Marlene notices they don't get along. Tifa even feels jealous of Denzel.
In the end, Cloud moves out to the church, which he refers to as his place.
Cloud not being able to get along with Tifa has nothing to do with his guilt. It is solely due to the incompatibility of Cloud and Tifa.

So what he feels for Aerith, is much more a parental kind of love, not a romantical one.

I assume that this is because of the "mother" quote in AC? Then can I not say that, after CoT, what Tifa feels for Cloud is also a kind of parental love and not a romantic one? Isn't that a much more obvious indication that her feelings have evolved from one of romance to one of sibling/motherliness? Especially since it is narrated from Tifa's own POV. After all, that's the same assumption that people make because of one murmur from Cloud after being shot through the chest.

Why must only Cloud's feelings evolve into parental love and not Tifa's?

I never stated anythink like Cloud and Tifa are canon. In the first hand, there's no canon couple in FF7. Nor Cloud x Aerith, nor Cloud x Tifa.

Good, looks like we agree on that one.

Yes, unless you have Aeris in your party all the time, Cloud and Aeris have almost NO interaction besides the two parts mentioned, unlike Cloud and Tifa, who have a few in the first disk, and Many later on.

Actually, I did refer to an in-depth analysis on Cloud interactions with Tifa compared to Cloud's interactions with Aerith in FF7 a few posts up, completely based on the game script, taking in any considerable situation, but your kind friend refused to click on the link for fear it would eat him. You can look it up if you like. Just to note, it was not made by me, and I found it to be very unbiased.
http://www.geocities.com/ff7lovetriangle/Preface.htm

[Pivi]

This is why the Cleris possibility still holds ground.

Yes, of course, I do not have anything against it.
SE made the movie for all of their fans, and they made it as anyone can interpret anything out of it, so there's nothing which was cearly stated there.

When I read CoT, it seemed to me that the incompatibility factor was what drove Cloud and Tifa apart. They were not even in a relationship then, but already they couldn't tolerate each other.
Tifa was obsessed with her family life, but that wasn't the way Cloud was comfortable with. He felt freeer doing his own things, roaming the world. He apologizes to Tifa for every little thing, like a little kid being caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He hides things from her, not telling her anything. When Tifa makes advances on him, he gives her dubious looks. He stays away from home for long periods of time. Tifa feels aggravated and frustrated with him. Even Marlene notices they don't get along. Tifa even feels jealous of Denzel.
In the end, Cloud moves out to the church, which he refers to as his place.
Cloud not being able to get along with Tifa has nothing to do with his guilt. It is solely due to the incompatibility of Cloud and Tifa.

Well, I have to disagree with You here.
At the first part of CoT, Cloud and Tifa were very much compatible with each other. Cloud even showed some affection towards her, when he blushed around, he said that it'll be alright, because Tifa is there for him.
Their "incompatibility" thing only came after that delivery to the forgotten city. That was, when Cloud started to lose himself again. He felt in depression, and he distanced himself from Tifa.
I do not see any incompatibility their, only depression, whick makes people distant to each other (like in real life).
And what was the cause of his depression? I do not have anything against the theory that he relised that he can't let go of Aerith romantically, but that has to do nothing with that I saw that he finally let go of her at the end of the movie.

I assume that this is because of the "mother" quote in AC?

No.
Most of the Clotis arguing with this, but I don't think that has to do anything with parental love. I just referred to Cloud's love like parental, but I can write familial love also, it does not have to do anything with mother/son relationship, I just wanted to state the difference between romantical love, and the love that Cloud feels for Aerith in the end (in my interpretation).

Good, looks like we agree on that one.

Actually, I'm very open-minded, and I share similar thoughts with Clerises, and with Clotis also. I have my own interpretation of the compilation, which is not the same as biased Clerises' or biased Clotis', so I can easily agree with anyone.

http://www.geocities.com/ff7lovetriangle/Preface.htm

Well, I think this page really overanalyzes a lot of things, and counting scenes and showing mathematical proofs is somehow very comical...

[Sefie1999AD]

Well, I think this page really overanalyzes a lot of things, and counting scenes and showing mathematical proofs is somehow very comical...

Yeah, not just that, but the huge amount of Cloud-Aeris pics there doesn't imply at all that the one who wrote that is neutral and not biased towards Cloud x Aeris. In addition, when I read about Tifa-Cloud moments, the author's interpretation seems to be every time against them: that they don't get along, they don't belong to each other etc. Also, listing the amount of scenes Cloud has with Aeris to show who Cloud loves certainly solves the case. Quantity over quality! :rolleyes2 Cloud has loads of scenes with Sephiroth, he's admired him ever since his childhood, he pursues him all the way through the entire world and he always goes crazy over him when he's around - oh no, Cloud has the hots for Sephiroth!

TurkSlayer: Not sure if my point is that Cloud never loved Aeris. Just that maybe Cloud wasn't as much for Aeris as many think he was. I think there was some attraction between them, but Aeris died before nothing came of it...

Hey, isn't it clear! Cloud has the hots for Sephiroth, and Sephiroth feels the same way, and so they killed Aeris to get rid of any possible third wheels.