The relationship between Cloud and Tifa

[Anastar]

The blushing scene, the holding scene, and nearly everything before he got geostigma and his depression.
Should I quote them out of Case of Tifa?

No need to quote them. I know the blushing scene and I don't find it romantic. I interpreted that as simple embarrassment. The holding scene? You mean where Cloud puts his hand on her shoulder? Again, that was from Tifa's point of view. Tifa thought it felt like Cloud didn't want to let her go. How did Cloud feel about it? I'd like to know what Cloud is feeling at that moment... not Tifa.

Even IF the gesture meant that Cloud didn't want to let her go, why do you assume that it has a romantic basis? How do you know it's not because he didn't want his friend to meet a fate similar to Aerith? How do you know that the gesture doesn't reflect his grief over Aerith rather than his feelings for Tifa? A father, for example, may put his hand on his daughter's shoulder in the same way during his wife's funeral. The gesture reflects the man's grief for his wife and caring for his daughter. Does it portray love in a romantic sense for the daughter? No.

and nearly everything before he got geostigma

Nearly everything?!? So Barret's in love with Tifa, too? Barret travelled with Tifa, talked with Tifa, drank with Tifa, and helped Tifa rebuild the Seventh Heaven along with Cloud. Barret moved into the Seventh Heaven, too. I don't see Barret acting any differently towards Tifa than Cloud during the early part of CoT, so are you saying that Barret's in love with Tifa, too?

And by the way... I don't think it was ever specified at what point Cloud contracted Geostigma, was it? Are you just assuming that he must have gotten Geostigma at the same time his behavior changed? That's a pretty large assumption, since I see several other factors affecting his behavior.

What do you base that on, and why does that mean that he'll move on with Tifa?

Based on my interpretation on the whole compilation. Wow, who thought, eh...?

No, not the whole compilation. I'm asking what you have taken from AC, CoT, and MotP to base your interpretation on.

If Cloud continues acting the way he did in CoT, then he may have simply said, "I found this by the side of the road" and never mentioned what it had to do with Aerith.

I have bolded the word for You. But he does not have geostigma, so I don't think he would.

But I don't think that Geostigma was the only reason for his actions toward Tifa in CoT. Therefore, I think he would act that way.

Again, it was never specified at what point he got Geostigma, so how do you know it was only Geostigma that made him act that way? I see him continuing to act that way now that he doesn't have Geostigma when he doesn't tell Tifa that he's in the flower field, and when he doesn't tell Tifa why he's taking the day off in Reminiscence.

How do you know he did not tell Tifa that Aerith is in the flower field? How do you know that he did not tell Tifa that he can communicate with Aerith? How do You know he did not tell Tifa that he sees Aerith sometimes?

How do you know that he did? If he didn't tell Tifa that he was in the flower field in the same way he didn't tell Tifa that he delivered a bouquet to the Forgotten City for Elmyra, then it's more likely that he didn't.

And for the biggest question, how do you know that he can communicate with Aerith and that he sees Aerith sometimes?

Because Cloud was able to communicate with Aerith and see her in AC.

I haven't heard Reminiscence myself

How can You use something in a debate that You're not familiar with...?

Where did I say I wasn't familiar with it? I said I hadn't *HEARD* it, which means I have not heard the recording, so I can't speak about the sounds. However, I have read the translation several times, and I have seen many screenshots from it.... so I am familiar with it, thank you.

Do You answer a phone call with a 'Hey, it's me', followed by a full sentence, and not asking what the caller wants...? Because there's no people who acts like this.
So Cloud called Tifa. He stopped to call her if there's anything else to do.

Here’s what people who have heard it say about whether Tifa called Cloud, or whether Cloud called Tifa. The first is from Clorith at ACF:

Alright everyone. Everybody, go watch Reminiscence again. I can't believe we're still harping over who's calling. >__< Tifa calls Cloud, that is very obvious. The first thing we hear is the phone ringing, then a click as Cloud opens it, then the sound of Cloud pressing the button to take the call. I think those in doubt have forgotten that this entire scene is viewed from a third person's (Aerith's) perspective. It makes no sense whatsoever for you to be able to hear Tifa answering the phone, yet at the same time be unable to hear her speak. Not only that, when the conversation ends, we again hear Cloud press that button, followed by him flipping his phone close. Seriously, all this is as clear as day, and makes complete sense. The call interrupts Cloud while he is in the flower field, Cloud does not make a call. Just listen to the clip carefully.

From yin-chan at ACF:

Yes, you also hear the sound of him flipping open the phone and pressing the 'answer button'.

If it were the sound of him calling Tifa, I don't see how she can flip open that bulky phone in Seventh Heaven, or press any button to answer, for that matter. Besides, you wouldn't be able to hear the other side press a button if you were calling.

As I said, the sounds heard in the recording make it quite clear that Tifa is calling Cloud. I've heard the same report from other people.

He's taking a dayout with all of his friends. That's what the Reminisence calls are about, so You should listen to it (or read the call translations), before You make false interpretations of the scenes...

The Reminiscence calls are not all about Cloud taking a day off with all of his friends. Yuffie’s trying to call, but Cloud doesn’t answer, so she calls Cid and Vincent and has them call Cloud. Cid calls and tells Cloud that Yuffie wants him to stop by Barret’s to pick something up. Then Vincent calls to tell him the same thing. Then Barret calls. He says that he has a present to give Cloud from Yuffie. When Cloud opens the present, it’s a “Shop Closed” sign.

Now… if the "Shop Closed" sign was to close BOTH the Seventh Heaven and Cloud’s shop, then why would Yuffie give it to Barret to give to Cloud? Wouldn’t Yuffie just give the sign to Tifa? Since Yuffie gives it to Barret to give to Cloud, and since Yuffie says it's a present specifically for Cloud, then the sign is *only* for Cloud’s shop. There’s nothing about anyone but Cloud taking the day off during Reminiscence.

Another indication that we get from Yuffie giving the sign to Barret instead of Tifa is that Yuffie knows it will bother Tifa. Why would Tifa be bothered? Because Cloud intends to take the day off without including Tifa in his plans.

Having read through all of Case of Tifa, and knowing how deeply Cloud care for Tifa (being it romantic or not, it's not matter at this time), it wasn't an illusion, and that's why I made my interpretation, as I made.

I agree that Cloud cares for Tifa, but it is possible to care for the welfare of a friend. He doesn’t have to care about her in a romantic sense. I make my interpretation that it was an illusion on the basis of how poorly Cloud and Tifa got along during Case of Tifa while Cloud lived in Seventh Heaven. Even Marlene told Barret that Cloud and Tifa were getting along badly.

Q: At the end of FFVII, Cloud saved the world and was on the way to a happy ending but, in the two years towards AC, he returned to the way he was in the past. What happened to him?
Nojima: Cloud never had a boring personality in the first place so when he started living with Tifa and started out his job, the peaceful life that he had never experienced before made him anxious. During that time, he also contracted Geostigma so it's to protect the ones precious to him or not, he had to face death and ran away.

Cloud was on the way to a happy ending. Did Nojima say that the happy ending involved Tifa? Did Nojima say that Cloud was on his way to a happy ending with Tifa, or that Cloud and Tifa were on their way to a happy ending together? No.

Nojima also says that it was the peaceful life that Cloud was living with Tifa that made Cloud anxious, not the Geostigma. People don’t enjoy a lifestyle which makes them feel anxious, do they? How do you know that the same lifestyle won’t make him anxious now, since Geostigma had nothing to do with it? How do you know that other things weren’t bothering Cloud about that lifestyle?

Is there any incompatibiltiy with Tifa...? No, there isn't.

According to your interpretation. According to my interpretation, there’s a great deal of incompatibility. More than anything else, however, you have Tifa asking Cloud near the end of CoT whether he loves her. All Cloud gives her is a dubious look. How can you think that Cloud acts romantically to Tifa when all he gives her is a dubious look when she asks that?!?

If my boyfriend gave me nothing but a dubious look when I asked him if he loved me, I would know that his response translated into “NO” - loud and clear. Then again, I wouldn’t even need to ask my boyfriend such a thing, because I already know how he feels from his words and actions to me. So why doesn’t Tifa know? Probably because their interactions haven’t been romantic.

It really makes sense. Cloud changed his behaviour suddenly. What happened to him? He contracted geostigma. So in the first hand, he felt depression not only because of Aerith's death (don't forget that when they first visited Aerith's grave in CoT, Tifa was the one who cried, and he was the one, who tried to calm her), but because the effect of geostigma.

Cloud’s behavior didn’t change as suddenly as you claim. There was a gradual progression of Cloud detaching himself. At first they were traveling and busy with re-building the Seventh Heaven. I saw the change in personality start soon after he moved into the Seventh Heaven.

As for Cloud’s actions at the Forgotten City, remember what I said above about the father showing grief for his wife by holding his daughter’s shoulder? People have different ways of showing their grief. Females more commonly display their grief through tears than men do. Some may choose to stay silent and seem depressed, whereas others will keep themselves constantly occupied with work, exercise or other responsibilities. Cloud stayed busy during FFVII chasing Sephiroth, defeating the Weapons, defeating Hojo, etc. At the end of the game, he was most likely still figuring things out for himself. He probably didn’t know what he was going to do or where he was going to go. He kept his feelings inside, and kept himself busy with traveling and re-building the Seventh Heaven. If Cloud wasn’t still experiencing grief, then why did he come home after taking the bouquet to the Forgotten City for Elmyra and drink alcohol? That was unusual for Cloud, and an expression of his grief. From CoT:

Tifa "Hey, Cloud. Do you like Marlene?"
Cloud "Yeah. But sometimes I don't know how to approach her."
Tifa "Even though we've been together for sometime?"
Cloud "Just that itself isn't enough maybe."
Tifa "Even we aren't enough for you?"
Cloud didn't answer.
Tifa "Sorry for asking some strange things."
Cloud "Don't apologize. It's my problem."
Cloud closed his eyes.
Tifa "Lets work hard together."
Cloud didn't answer.

Notice that Cloud doesn’t even answer when Tifa asked whether “we” are enough for Cloud? Is that how you would respond to someone whom you loved?!? Then Tifa offers to work together with him to resolve the problem. Again, Cloud doesn’t answer. That says to me that he doesn’t want her help. (BTW, I see this passage to be another example of their incompatibility.)

Later, Tifa asked him again whether the problem referred to in the above passage had been resolved and Cloud answered, "The problem isn't resolved. Well, there was no attempt at resolving it for a long time I think. You can't retrieve lost lives."

His main problem is the inability to retrieve lost lives. If the inability to retrieve lost lives is his main problem, then the loss of Aerith is still Cloud’s main problem, and therefore he is still experiencing grief at her loss. You can also tell that he misses Aerith if her loss is still his main problem. And even Tifa realizes that she isn’t enough.

He had those feelings in FF7, yes. But in AC...? I don't think so. Well, I'm pretty sure that he has some romantical feelings inside him (he did not let her go yet), but it's not the same feeling as it was in FF7

Please give me quotes to substantiate what you're saying.

Hmmm, her feelings are much more caring feelings in AC then romantical for me...
Yes, it was clear that she loved Cloud romantically, but somehow after I read Maiden, I had the impression, that he changed to a "mother" figure (not because of the "Mother" comment in AC), and she cared not only for Cloud, but for everyone. So I had the impression, that she let go of him romantically.

Then why is Aerith’s form still showing at the end of the movie in Calling? Why does Aerith turn as Cloud approaches the flower field on Fenrir?

And another question is, if Aerith can manifestate herself that easily in the "upper world", then why didn't she do that...? If she loves Cloud that much romantically, why didn't she manifestate when he was depressed, and when he started struggling because of geostigma...? She made very few appearances through AC, and that's just for stirring Cloud to the right direction, and not to confess their love.

I thought she did. We heard the recording of her voice over the cell phone as it dropped into the water, so she had apparently attempted to contact him. His grief and/or guilt may have made him “shut down his mind” to the point that it was difficult for her to reach him, similar to how it was difficult to reach him in MotP when Sephiroth shattered his mind at the Reunion. It may also be that Sephiroth’s remnants made it difficult for Aerith to reach Cloud’s mind. However, Cloud went to her Church to live. Why would he go to a place associated with Aerith to live the remainder of his life? Most people want to spend their remaining days with those who are most precious to them.

It may also be that SE simply wanted to leave it up to speculation whether or not Cloud had communicated with Aerith during the two years prior to AC because we didn’t get a story from Cloud’s perspective. I would actually say that Cloud had communicated with Aerith before AC. Otherwise, why didn’t Cloud show any surprise at Aerith’s appearance in the flower field as he approached the Forgotten City to rescue the children?

Even Cloud did not behave like one, who is eternally in love with her... He wanted forgiveness from her, and not to be with her forever.

Moving to Aerith’s Church, visiting Aerith’s flower field, taking pictures of Aerith’s flower field, and picking flowers from Aerith’s flower field all seem like demonstrations of Cloud’s desire to be with Aerith to me. Telling Tifa that his main problem is the inability “to retrieve lost lives” is basically saying that he wants Aerith back, which means that he wants to be with her.

If that's the case, then why did Cloud behave like he did in the first part of CoT...? Why was he optimistic, why did he want to start a new life with Tifa, Marlene and Barret, why did he show some affection towards Tifa (blushing scene in CoT, for example), and why he changed suddenly...?

Answered above.

A romantical love that never dies, is much like Vincent's and Lucrecia's love, but not like Cloud's and Aerith's. Vincent is behaving much like the one, who'll never love another woman romantically, but Cloud is not.

But Vincent and Lucrecia’s love is not a romantic love that will never die. Lucrecia didn’t love Vincent. So, Vincent is actually acting like someone whose love for a woman was never returned.

(Pssst... yo, Pivi! We say “romantic” in English, not “romantical”.)

[silentchild]

Whoa..look at the explosion of immense proportioned posts...

Let's settle this. Cloud cares for Tifa. As a sibling-like relationship. Face it, if he truly loved her, like you claim he did in the beginning of CoT, he would not have let the death of Aerith get in the way of giving her a happier life.

He cares for Tifa - and he will look after her now AC is over. But he will NOT move on romantically with her. It would be too much like incest for him.

And sephiroth whatever-your-nickname-is, if you don't have anything constructive to contribute, don't contribute at all. We don't need your stupid necrophilliac jokes here.

[*~*EnglishRose*~*]

Hey Pivi!!

May I intrude on this discussion a little bit more?

The blushing scene, the holding scene, and nearly everything before he got geostigma and his depression.
Should I quote them out of Case of Tifa?

Can I mention the Cosmo Candle scene, the laughing scene where Cloud is amused, and even smiles at Aerith's humor, and--dare I say-- the default date with her? Can I mention the handreach scene, the scene where-- according to your way of thinking, (no offence)-- the woman Cloud loves is in his arms, and Cloud talks about a completely different woman, and trying/thinking of meeting her in the Promised Land?

And for the biggest question, how do you know that he can communicate with Aerith and that he sees Aerith sometimes?

(SPOILER)In AC, she appeared to him quite a few times in a couple of days... or was it one? I forget.

Is there any incompatibiltiy with Tifa...? No, there isn't.
It really makes sense. Cloud changed his behaviour suddenly. What happened to him? He contracted geostigma. So in the first hand, he felt depression not only because of Aerith's death (don't forget that when they first visited Aerith's grave in CoT, Tifa was the one who cried, and he was the one, who tried to calm her), but because the effect of geostigma.

Cloud changed his behaviour suddenly. Because of Geostigma. Makes sense. By why did he move to the Church? Can you answer that for me?

Tifa cries, because Aerith and Tifa were best friends. There was no rivalry, and no Tifa and Aerith bashing. They were wonderful friends, and for a woman to cry is not rare. Cloud is the sort of man who holds back his emotions, even though he did cry and get upset when the actual killing took place. He held Aerith close when she died, he was grieving, and even Sephiroth was surprised he showed emotion.

He had those feelings in FF7, yes. But in AC...? I don't think so. Well, I'm pretty sure that he has some romantical feelings inside him (he did not let her go yet), but it's not the same feeling as it was in FF7, and Cloud's depression only came when he contracted geostigma.

If that statement is correct, then I am obliged to say that he can't have anything romantical toward Tifa at all. He is single.

And anyway, if Aerith managed to move on from Cloud, then Cloud should be able to move on from Tifa...

If that's the case, then why did Cloud behave like he did in the first part of CoT...? Why was he optimistic, why did he want to start a new life with Tifa, Marlene and Barret, why did he show some affection towards Tifa (blushing scene in CoT, for example), and why he changed suddenly...?

A romantical love that never dies, is much like Vincent's and Lucrecia's love, but not like Cloud's and Aerith's. Vincent is behaving much like the one, who'll never love another woman romantically, but Cloud is not.

True Love is the same, but comes in many forms. Cloud and Aerith shared more than special moments, thought they were cute moments. ^_^

Aerith could visit Cloud in dreams, she reached out to him, and even worked with Tifa to help Cloud get back on his feet when they entered the Lifestream. Those are just examples.

[Pivi]

No need to quote them. I know the blushing scene and I don't find it romantic.

Yes, that's exactly why I don't like to quote anything from the compilation, because I know most of the Cleris povs, thus I know how they interpret things differently.

Nearly everything?!? So Barret's in love with Tifa, too?

Please. You know that i do not meant every single word, just that I interpreted romance out of the first part of CoT.

Are you just assuming that he must have gotten Geostigma at the same time his behavior changed?

Yes. His behaviour changed very suddenly, although he visited Aerith's grave, and he did not show that much saddness or sorrow. So, there has to be something that changed him, and I think that was geostigma. No, it was not stated when he contracted it, but I think his sudden change has to do something with it.

No, not the whole compilation. I'm asking what you have taken from AC, CoT, and MotP to base your interpretation on.

When I refer to the compilation, I refer to FF7, LO, CoT and MotP.

But I don't think that Geostigma was the only reason for his actions toward Tifa in CoT. Therefore, I think he would act that way.

Okay, You think this, I think it differently. I do not have anything against it.

I see him continuing to act that way now that he doesn't have Geostigma when he doesn't tell Tifa that he's in the flower field, and when he doesn't tell Tifa why he's taking the day off in Reminiscence.

In Your interpretation.

Here’s what people who have heard it say about whether Tifa called Cloud, or whether Cloud called Tifa. The first is from Clorith at ACF:

You quoted from Clerises, who want to think that Tifa called Cloud, sorry, but it's no proof. I'll look reminisence again, and watch for that part, but Cloud's first sentence is very clealy states for me, that he called Tifa, and not Tifa him. You can think otherwise, no problem, but Cloud's first sentence is very avkward, ih Tifa had called him.

Now… if the "Shop Closed" sign was to close BOTH the Seventh Heaven and Cloud’s shop, then why would Yuffie give it to Barret to give to Cloud?

Because Cloud was the one, who was always away due to his delivery service. Why Tifa should close the Seventh heaven bar, if they can make the reunion at that place (the photo was taken in front of 7th Heaven)...? It does not make any sense.

There’s nothing about anyone but Cloud taking the day off during Reminiscence.

Yes, he's taking the day off, thus he won't be away, and they can make the reunion party (and they made the photo).

Do You really think that Yuffie gave the sign to Cloud, that he can close the shop, and can go to Aerith in the flower fields...? According to Your theory, he can meet her every time he's on a delivery run. Why does he need a day off, to do this...?

Why would Tifa be bothered? Because Cloud intends to take the day off without including Tifa in his plans.

Again, why should Cloud need a day off, if in Your theory, he's lying to Tifa about his deliveries, and he always meet Aerith when he's on a delivery run. You're contradicting Your own theory.

I agree that Cloud cares for Tifa, but it is possible to care for the welfare of a friend.

Yes, it is possible. I do not believe in it, but it's possible, I never said elsewhere.

Even Marlene told Barret that Cloud and Tifa were getting along badly.

*cough* depression *cough* geostigma *cough*

Cloud was on the way to a happy ending. Did Nojima say that the happy ending involved Tifa? Did Nojima say that Cloud was on his way to a happy ending with Tifa, or that Cloud and Tifa were on their way to a happy ending together? No.

Isn't it logical that if Cloud starts living with Tifa, and starts a family with her, then the happy ending involves Tifa too...? Yes it is.
I'm very sure that Aerith has to do nothing with that happy ending, she was not a part of anything there, only came after Cloud's depression.

How do you know that the same lifestyle won’t make him anxious now

Yes, actually I agree with this.
That's why I'm only saying that there's a possibility for Tifa and Cloud, and nothing that "OMG, they will make babies".

According to my interpretation, there’s a great deal of incompatibility.

Bolded out DA WORD.

however, you have Tifa asking Cloud near the end of CoT whether he loves her. All Cloud gives her is a dubious look.

Oh, I love this scene, nearly every Cleris brings this up.
Well, in my interpretation, Cloud gives her a dubious look, because he did not know, if he heard that question right (if he heard it at all, don't forget, that he was sleepng then). After that, Tifa quickly covers up with the "Do You love/like Marlene?" sentence.

I saw the change in personality start soon after he moved into the Seventh Heaven.

That was the "anxious" part from the interview, and no incompatibility.

People have different ways of showing their grief.

Yes, but if he was that depressed the first time, why was he optimistic, cheerful, why was he smiling after that scene, etc...? No, he was not that depressed at the first time at all.

You can also tell that he misses Aerith if her loss is still his main problem.

Miss her? Yes, he misses her. Miss her as an eternal love and as an undying romantic bond? No, I don't think so.
He blamed himself for her death, he thought that he can't help anyone precious to him (Tifa and the children), he went back to the "I'm not good for anything" state. It's not a romantic thing.

Please give me quotes to substantiate what you're saying.

Cloud: I want forgiveness... Yes, forgiveness.
Did he said that he wants to be with her? Or he want to meet her? Or anything romantic? No.
He does not behave like someone, whose long lost only love appeared in front of him.

Then why is Aerith’s form still showing at the end of the movie in Calling? Why does Aerith turn as Cloud approaches the flower field on Fenrir?

That represents how she's continuing to look over him (and everyone else).

It may also be that SE simply wanted to leave it up to speculation whether or not Cloud had communicated with Aerith during the two years prior to AC because we didn’t get a story from Cloud’s perspective.

I would extend this to tha fact, that SE wanted to make a lot of things up to speculation, including the love triangle.

Moving to Aerith’s Church

Moving their, to be at the place, where he maybe get his forgiveness from her.

visiting Aerith’s flower field

Which is not stated anywhere, that he actually does.

taking pictures of Aerith’s flower field

Which are not just fl&#233;ower fields, but different places, quite like random photos.

and picking flowers from Aerith’s flower field

Which is just a memento that reminds him of her. De not forget, that she's dear for him, it's undeniable, but it has to do nothing with moving forward.

You see? It's just a matter of interpretation.
You should try to respect other opinions, instead of trying to contradict interpretations with interpretations.

(Pssst... yo, Pivi! We say “romantic” in English, not “romantical”.)

Oh, okay.

Cloud cares for Tifa. As a sibling-like relationship.

Not in my interpretation.

Face it, if he truly loved her, like you claim he did in the beginning of CoT

Hah, misunderstanding here. I said that Cloud started to feel something romantically for Tifa. It's just like he stepped on the road to fell in love with her properly, and become a couple with her.
I never said that they're a couple in CoT, or they are in madly deep love.

he would not have let the death of Aerith get in the way of giving her a happier life.

No, Aerith's death was just a point, what Cloud blame himself for. He thought that he's no good for anyone, and he can't protect anyone, nor Aerith, nor Tifa and the children, nor anyone. How can he give Tifa a happier life in a state like this.
This is why they relationship did not bloomed.

But he will NOT move on romantically with her.

In Your interpretation.

May I intrude on this discussion a little bit more?

Sure, come along, just stay a little open-minded...

Can I mention the Cosmo Candle scene, the laughing scene where Cloud is amused, and even smiles at Aerith's humor, and--dare I say-- the default date with her?

I did not denied love between them, in FF7... You think that I'm a biased Cloti, who want to put Cloud and Tifa together...? Well, I'm not.

In AC, she appeared to him quite a few times in a couple of days... or was it one? I forget.

No-no, I referred to the future of AC, not in AC.

By why did he move to the Church? Can you answer that for me?

Because he needed forgiveness from her, before he dies (geostigma...), and he moved to the place where he can be close to her, and maybe where he can get his forgiveness.

And anyway, if Aerith managed to move on from Cloud, then Cloud should be able to move on from Tifa...

Move on from Tifa...? They're not even a couple yet. Where he should move on from her...?

He is single.

Yes, exactly! That's my point.
Why do You think that I desperately want to put Cloud and Tifa together...? Because I see possibility for them in the future...? I would be very sad, if seeing a Cloti possibility would make me a biased Cloti...

Wow, that's all for now. Sorry if I left some questions unanswered, or if I forgot to quote something, but I'm over a long concert, where I had to sing some pieces from H&#228;ndel's Messiah, and I'm very-very tired. So good night for now.

[Anastar]

Yes, that's exactly why I don't like to quote anything from the compilation, because I know most of the Cleris povs, thus I know how they interpret things differently.

Since we see things differently, then I won't know where you get your interpretation unless you explain where you get your interpretation. If you don't quote the passage that made you think that Cloud felt romantically toward Tifa, and I didn't see any such thing happening, then I'll be clueless how you got your interpretation. That's why I ask for quotes and substantiation.

Please. You know that i do not meant every single word, just that I interpreted romance out of the first part of CoT.

So far, I've only heard two things that you interpreted as romantic: the blushing scene and the hand on the shoulder scene. If those are the only two scenes where you see any hint of romance, then I don't know how in the world you can claim that the "entire first part of CoT" is romantic.

Yes. His behaviour changed very suddenly, although he visited Aerith's grave, and he did not show that much saddness or sorrow. So, there has to be something that changed him, and I think that was geostigma. No, it was not stated when he contracted it, but I think his sudden change has to do something with it.

I think this is our main bone of contention. I don't see the change in Cloud's behavior as sudden, and I think you're underestimating the amount of grief and sorrow Cloud felt at Aerith's grave. If Cloud has to drink alcohol after delivering a bouquet there, and if Tifa herself knows how difficult that would be for Cloud, then he's feeling a lot more grief and sorrow than you acknowledge. You have to remember, too, that Cloud himself says that main problem is the "inability to retrieve lost lives". If that's his main problem, then the death of Aerith is his main problem, and therefore he was going through a lot at her grave.

I'll have to go through CoT and designate how I see a gradual change, rather than a sudden change, happening in Cloud's behavior.

When I refer to the compilation, I refer to FF7, LO, CoT and MotP.

I don't consider LO legitimate, since there's so many errors in it. It contradicts the script of FF7 in too many places. I doubt Cloti's would even want to consider LO legitimate, considering that it makes Tifa into a huge liar.

You quoted from Clerises, who want to think that Tifa called Cloud, sorry, but it's no proof. I'll look reminisence again, and watch for that part, but Cloud's first sentence is very clealy states for me, that he called Tifa, and not Tifa him. You can think otherwise, no problem, but Cloud's first sentence is very avkward, ih Tifa had called him.

Or unless there's another translation for that line. For example, what if Tifa had said, "Cloud?" when he picked up, and he answered, "Yeah, it's me"? Vilaeth acknowledged that the sounds were the same as in the other calls, and he isn't partial to the Cleris interpretation. I didn't ask him about the translation, though, coz I didn't foresee your interpretation.

Clorith's explanation is very interesting, though. Clorith believes that we're seeing the Tifa-Cloud call from a third person's point of view, as if Aerith is standing there waiting for Cloud to finish the call. That's why Clorith believes we're unable to hear Tifa's voice, like you could hear the other people talking in the other calls. That's quite possible.

Because Cloud was the one, who was always away due to his delivery service. Why Tifa should close the Seventh heaven bar, if they can make the reunion at that place (the photo was taken in front of 7th Heaven)...? It does not make any sense.

It also wouldn’t make sense for Barret to ask Cloud to give presents to Marlene and Denzel for him if Barret were going to be there for the “Reunion” the next day, so that photo wasn’t taken after Reminiscence. It also looks to me as if they're standing in front of the Church, not the 7th Heaven.

Do You really think that Yuffie gave the sign to Cloud, that he can close the shop, and can go to Aerith in the flower fields...? According to Your theory, he can meet her every time he's on a delivery run. Why does he need a day off, to do this...?

Maybe it doesn’t seem logical to you because it’s something that someone who’s still in love would want to do. Maybe he doesn’t want to be interrupted by deliveries for once? Notice that Cloud won’t do that for Tifa in CoT, but he does it for Aerith after meeting her.

I agree that Cloud cares for Tifa, but it is possible to care for the welfare of a friend.

Yes, it is possible. I do not believe in it, but it's possible, I never said elsewhere.

Hmmm… then I guess we have to assume that Cloud and Zack had a love relationship, since Zack rescued Cloud from Hojo’s lab. Barret must be in love with Tifa, too, since he rescued her from Scarlet in Junon.

*cough* depression *cough* geostigma *cough*

This is part of our main contention regarding the sudden vs. gradual change in Cloud’s behavior. More about this later.

Cloud was on the way to a happy ending. Did Nojima say that the happy ending involved Tifa? Did Nojima say that Cloud was on his way to a happy ending with Tifa, or that Cloud and Tifa were on their way to a happy ending together? No.

Isn't it logical that if Cloud starts living with Tifa, and starts a family with her, then the happy ending involves Tifa too...? Yes it is.

Let’s look at that quote again:

Q: At the end of FFVII, Cloud saved the world and was on the way to a happy ending but, in the two years towards AC, he returned to the way he was in the past. What happened to him?

Nojima: Cloud never had a boring personality in the first place so when he started living with Tifa and started out his job, the peaceful life that he had never experienced before made him anxious. During that time, he also contracted Geostigma so it's to protect the ones precious to him or not, he had to face death and ran away.

So it was the *interviewer*, not Nojima, who said that Cloud was on his way to a happy ending. I could care less what the interviewer thinks.

It’s Nojima, however, who says that the life Cloud had at the Seventh Heaven with Tifa made him anxious. From what Nojima says, Cloud was feeling anxious before contracting Geostigma, which would fit my interpretation better than yours! :P

Yes, actually I agree with this.
That's why I'm only saying that there's a possibility for Tifa and Cloud, and nothing that "OMG, they will make babies".

I would agree that there’s a possibility for Tifa and Cloud, just as there’s a possibility for single Cloud and a possibility that Cloud will love Aerith eternally. There’s also a possibility that Tifa will get together with Barret, Reno, or Vincent instead of Cloud. I’ve always thought Barret had a thing for Tifa, anyway. After all, Barret told Tifa after the Lifestream event that she was “some kinda lady”. *woot*

According to my interpretation, there’s a great deal of incompatibility

Bolded out DA WORD.

Yes, we have two different interpretations of the story. Where’s the news in that? I thought we were discussing our different interpretations? Please remember that yours is nothing but an interpretation, too. I plan to show you in great detail how I got the interpretation of incompatibility, too.

Oh, I love this scene, nearly every Cleris brings this up.
Well, in my interpretation, Cloud gives her a dubious look, because he did not know, if he heard that question right (if he heard it at all, don't forget, that he was sleepng then). After that, Tifa quickly covers up with the "Do You love/like Marlene?" sentence.

If he wasn’t sure of the question, then why didn’t he ask her to repeat it? If I’m not sure of what someone said, I ask them to repeat it. Most people do.

His dubious look is way too similar to his later response to Tifa when he was fully awake for me to think he didn’t hear her question. Look at the entire passage:

Tifa "Do you love me?"
Cloud woke up, a dubious look on his face.
Tifa "Hey, Cloud. Do you like Marlene?"
Cloud "Yeah. But sometimes I don't know how to approach her."
Tifa "Even though we've been together for sometime?"
Cloud "Just that itself isn't enough maybe."
Tifa "Even we aren't enough for you?"
Cloud didn't answer.
Tifa "Sorry for asking some strange things."
Cloud "Don't apologize. It's my problem."

Tifa asked if “we” are enough for Cloud, which includes herself. That’s basically asking him the same thing, and he didn’t answer. According to your interpretation, Cloud would have to be in love with Tifa at this point for you to see the entire first part of CoT as romantic, yet he has no answer for Tifa when she asks if she is enough. Someone who’s in love wouldn’t respond like that.

Instead, he refers to his “problem”, and we later find out what that problem is: the inability to retrieve lost lives, which refers to getting Aerith back.

That was the "anxious" part from the interview, and no incompatibility.

If a lifestyle makes you feel anxious, then you are unhappy with it. If you are unhappy with a way of living, that makes you incompatible with a person who wants to live that way.

Yes, but if he was that depressed the first time, why was he optimistic, cheerful, why was he smiling after that scene, etc...? No, he was not that depressed at the first time at all.

You assume that he wasn’t depressed because he didn’t break down in tears like Tifa did. However, men show grief differently than women:

Men also tend to deal with the loss of a loved one differently than women. This also may be related to the belief that men must be strong in the face of adversity, and that showing emotion is a sign of weakness. Men tend to assume full responsibility for their bereavement and suppress their grief. …

Because they feel unable to openly express their feelings, many men deal with grief by taking on more activities—such as working overtime or going on business trips—to occupy their time. They may become involved in risk-taking behavior, such as dangerous sports or compulsive sexual activity. Some addictive behaviors, such as alcohol or other drug abuse, can escalate as the result of suppressed grief.

Source: http://www.clevelandclinic.org/healt...asp?index=9307 (Depression in Men – Bereavement)

You are expecting Cloud to show his grief in a manner similar to Tifa. In reality, Cloud may actually be feeling grief - but not openly expressing it – simply because that’s what men tend to do. Men tend to suppress their grief, so Cloud wouldn’t be showing outward signs of it. However, we do see his grief expressed when Cloud resorts to drinking alcohol after taking a bouquet to Aerith’s grave. When Tifa learned he was taking a bouquet to Aerith’s grave, Tifa acknowledged that it would be difficult for him to do, which shows that even Tifa knows that Cloud is in grief. Cloud also says that his main problem is the “inability to retrieve lost lives”, which means that his main problem is the inability to bring Aerith back. If that’s his main problem, then he is grieving for her even though you don’t see the outward signs of it that you expect to see.

Miss her? Yes, he misses her. Miss her as an eternal love and as an undying romantic bond? No, I don't think so.
He blamed himself for her death, he thought that he can't help anyone precious to him (Tifa and the children), he went back to the "I'm not good for anything" state. It's not a romantic thing.

You are looking at symptoms of depression and thinking that we view that as romantic love. What you refer to are actually symptoms of his depression. Symptoms of depression from http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk.../symptoms.htm:

* You seldom enjoy the things that you used to enjoy-you may be off sex or food or may 'comfort eat' to excess.
* You don't want to see people or are scared to be left alone. Social activity may feel hard or impossible.
* You feel like a failure and/or feel guilty a lot of the time.
* You feel a burden to others.
* You can see no future. There is a loss of hope. You feel all you've ever done is make mistakes and that's all that you ever will do.
* You feel you have no confidence.
* You spend a lot of time thinking about what has gone wrong, what will go wrong or what is wrong about yourself as a person. You may also feel guilty sometimes about being critical of others (or even thinking critically about them).
* You feel that life is unfair.

What you cite is actually evidence of Cloud’s depression due to grief over Aerith's death and the inability to bring her back, so it’s actually an expression of Cloud’s grief. I don’t believe it was ever said that depression was a symptom of Geostigma.

What Cleris people see as evidence of his undying love for Aerith is going out to flower field to meet her, gathering flowers from the place where she is, taking multiple photographs of the flower field, and going to live in Aerith’s Church when he thought he was dying. What we see as undying love for Aerith is Cloud’s unhappiness while living at the Seventh Heaven. What we see as undying love for Aerith is Cloud telling Tifa that she isn’t enough to solve his problem, which is the “inability to retrieve lost lives”. What we see as undying love for Aerith is the way Cloud looks up into the brightness of the Holy rain brought by Aerith. What we see as undying love for Aerith is wanting to take the day off to spend a whole day in the flower field with Aerith.

Another question that has to be asked is why Cloud would fall into depression if he’s in love with Tifa and living a happy life with her? If this is what makes Cloud happy, and this is the life he’s always wanted, then why would he become depressed?

Cloud: I want forgiveness... Yes, forgiveness.
Did he said that he wants to be with her? Or he want to meet her? Or anything romantic? No.
He does not behave like someone, whose long lost only love appeared in front of him.

I actually see this and matters brought up in the remainder of your post from a different perspective than I did yesterday after giving it some thought, so I’m going to go off on a completely different track.

From Maiden over the Planet:

She didn't use coercion but instead, she approached Dyne gently. Extending out her hands, she touched the layer of blood that covered him.
Aerith "The blood bound to you is something that your feeling of guilt is making. The lives you took away returned to the Lifestream long ago. You can't forget about what you've done but, there is no reason why you can't start over. I guarantee it."
Dyne "...."
From the point where Aerith touched, the blood dried up into tissue, detached from Dyne and wore away. Then, Dyne's left arm started to fade away.
…
For the first time, Dyne smiled from the bottom of his heart and quietly, his image faded away. The tip of the gun on his left arm disappeared.
Dyne: "After dying and experiencing all that, I can finally stop turning my back against Barret and Marlene. Let me say my thanks..."
Just before he sunk into the Lifestream, Aerith saw it.
She saw Mako particles make their way towards Dyne and huddle together on him as if they had a will of their own. Dyne's faint, surprised voice could be heard.
Dyne "Eleanor?"

Dyne wasn’t able to be with Eleanor until his “sin” started to fade away from Aerith’s touch. From what Cloud said to Vincent, we know that Cloud feels that his “sin” is letting Aerith die. Cloud tried to turn around to see Aerith in the flower field when she met him on the way to the Forgotten City, but she disappeared, so he wasn't able to see her. During the flower field scene, Aerith told Cloud that she didn’t blame him. Aerith also touched Cloud’s arm, like she touched Dyne’s arm in the story. Then Cloud went back to Midgar and told Tifa that he “felt lighter”. Shortly after that, the Bahamut hand reach scene occurred, and Cloud saw Aerith. From Cloud’s reaction to seeing Aerith's face in the hand reach scene, it makes sense that it was the first time that Cloud could visually see her. Apparently, Cloud had to start letting go of his guilt before he was able to see Aerith in the same way that Dyne had to start letting of his guilt before he could join with Eleanor. This would explain why Cloud wasn’t able to be with Aerith before AC.

Another thing we learn from MotP is this:

Slanting her head to the side, she thought more about it.

"Will I be able to talk to Cloud somewhere? So that I can tell him I'm fine... It's kind of odd saying I'm fine but maybe I can be "clearer" about myself here."

Maybe she could be clear about her affections towards Cloud here. Then maybe they would be seen as family or lovers... During her lifetime in Midgar, she felt many souls of the ones that tried to confess their love. Those that still had those feelings or had those feelings left behind them could strongly retain their consciousness as a "whole".

"But does that mean I'll disappear as soon as I meet Cloud? I wonder if that's what's happening or... Is there still something else I've still to do...?"

Now, if Aerith had “gotten over” Cloud – as you have suggested – and gave her blessing to CloudxTifa, why didn’t Aerith disappear?

This passage also suggests that Cloud hadn’t “gotten over” Aerith, since we see Aerith waiting for Cloud during the bonus ending while Calling plays. Those who had feelings left behind them could strongly retain their consciousness as a “whole”, which suggests that Cloud’s love for Aerith is still very strong.

You see? It's just a matter of interpretation.
You should try to respect other opinions, instead of trying to contradict interpretats with interpretations.

You say this after contradicting my interpretation with your interpretation? Hmmm…

I also want to write up a full reply about Case of Tifa, which will show how I see Cloud's change of behavior as gradual rather than sudden.

[*~*EnglishRose*~*]

Move on from Tifa...? They're not even a couple yet. Where he should move on from her...?

But Cloti's say that he had a chilhood crush on Tifa, and he still and/or maybe loves her... what I'm saying is, he can move on, too. ^_^

Which are not just fléower fields, but different places, quite like random photos.

That picture of Cloud and Tifa, and marlene and denzel could be then ticked off as random. The important thing is, why does he have them on his desk in the first place?

First, the ribbon is red (not pink!),

first of all... who cares what colour it is, it's still a memory of Aerith.

and second, everyone wears the ribbon, including Tifa, Barret, Cid, Vincent, Red XIII, Cait Sith and Yuffie.

your point? They still want to remember her.

Yes. His behaviour changed very suddenly, although he visited Aerith's grave, and he did not show that much saddness or sorrow. So, there has to be something that changed him, and I think that was geostigma. No, it was not stated when he contracted it, but I think his sudden change has to do something with it.

they day Cloud starts to show some emotion, is the day Aerith is revived through some magical way. My point... he doesn't show his feelings. Only few times do you see how he truly feels, when he laughs with Aerith, when Aerith dies, and when he reaches for Aerith's hand in the Life-stream. Once with Tifa, does he show it. Nope, not the highwind scene. when Cloud was knocked into the Lifestream with Tifa, and even then Aerith was present.

[Pivi]

Well, first of all, we're going nowhere with this discussion, so I'll stop it now, this'll be my last quote. Interpretation can't win against an interpretation, and we're fighting with these.

Or unless there's another translation for that line.

Yes, in that case I would fully accept it as Tifa calling Cloud.

So it was the *interviewer*, not Nojima, who said that Cloud was on his way to a happy ending. I could care less what the interviewer thinks.

Nojima did not negate the "happy ending" quote,

It’s Nojima, however, who says that the life Cloud had at the Seventh Heaven with Tifa made him anxious. From what Nojima says, Cloud was feeling anxious before contracting Geostigma, which would fit my interpretation better than yours! :P

The peaceful life made him anxious, yes. But that does not make him incompatible with Tifa, as You think, and because of this anxiousness, he starts his delivery business with his bike. He can't stand in one place for long, it makes him anxious. Does this incompatibility? No. Does this make him incompatible with Tifa? No. Does this makes Your interpretation more valid? Hell no. :P

There’s also a possibility that Tifa will get together with Barret, Reno, or Vincent instead of Cloud.

Yes, of course. It has a much less possibility, bit it has. :P

I plan to show you in great detail how I got the interpretation of incompatibility, too.

Go ahead, but I don't think it will change my interpretation...

If he wasn’t sure of the question, then why didn’t he ask her to repeat it? If I’m not sure of what someone said, I ask them to repeat it. Most people do.

There are facial expressions, that equals to a question, You know. A dubious look, for example...

According to your interpretation, Cloud would have to be in love with Tifa at this point

No, You also got it wrong. Cloud has romantical feelings for her, but he couldn't let them out yet, and they're not evolved feelings. I never said that they're madly in love yet. It has to wait until AC.

Instead, he refers to his “problem”, and we later find out what that problem is: the inability to retrieve lost lives, which refers to getting Aerith back.

If he could get lost lives back, it would make that he's not guilty, thus he does not need forgiveness. It's not a romantic "bring her back" for me. He does not behave loke a forever in love person to me throughout CoT and AC.

If a lifestyle makes you feel anxious, then you are unhappy with it. If you are unhappy with a way of living, that makes you incompatible with a person who wants to live that way.

But with the delivery service, Cloud is not anxious anymore, so if Tifa will acknoledge this (what she already did), then the so called incompatibility will go away.

You assume that he wasn’t depressed because he didn’t break down in tears like Tifa did.

No. I assume he wasn't depressed, because after that, he was optimistic, he was smiled, etc. It's not like a depressed person. After geostigma, he was depressed, but before that, not.

What Cleris people see as evidence of his undying love for Aerith is going out to flower field to meet her, gathering flowers from the place where she is, taking multiple photographs of the flower field, and going to live in Aerith’s Church when he thought he was dying. What we see as undying love for Aerith is Cloud’s unhappiness while living at the Seventh Heaven. What we see as undying love for Aerith is Cloud telling Tifa that she isn’t enough to solve his problem, which is the “inability to retrieve lost lives”. What we see as undying love for Aerith is the way Cloud looks up into the brightness of the Holy rain brought by Aerith. What we see as undying love for Aerith is wanting to take the day off to spend a whole day in the flower field with Aerith.

Should I say, that in my interpretation, I can debunk all of these points...? I do not think it's necessary, until You not try to tell me that Your interpretation is the absolute truthness. For me, it's very far from being the truthness, but I have to say I respect this theory also.

Another question that has to be asked is why Cloud would fall into depression if he’s in love with Tifa and living a happy life with her?

Read back.

Now, if Aerith had “gotten over” Cloud – as you have suggested – and gave her blessing to CloudxTifa, why didn’t Aerith disappear?

This passage also suggests that Cloud hadn’t “gotten over” Aerith, since we see Aerith waiting for Cloud during the bonus ending while Calling plays. Those who had feelings left behind them could strongly retain their consciousness as a “whole”, which suggests that Cloud’s love for Aerith is still very strong.

Well, the problem with this interpretation is that Zack also appeared for Cloud at the end of AC, end there's clearly nothing romantical between Cloud and Zack. So, is this means that the love between Cloud and Aerith is not necessarily romantical...? Yes, very much.

I also want to write up a full reply about Case of Tifa, which will show how I see Cloud's change of behavior as gradual rather than sudden.

Okay, go ahead, I'll read it surely, but I won't comment anything here for a while, I really got tired of this discussion.
I don't care that much for the LT in AC, to run in circles this much...

That picture of Cloud and Tifa, and marlene and denzel could be then ticked off as random. The important thing is, why does he have them on his desk in the first place?

Well, the family picture and the reunion picture placed there to look on it. The photos are scattered throughout there, as random photos would have been on a workdesk. If those photos would have the same meaning as the other pictures (to look on them), then they would placed in a photo album, or in a photo case, like the family and reunion photo.
The flower in front of the reunion picture represents Aerith, the photos not.

And it's a very interesting thing that the flower placed in front of the group picture, and not in front of the family picture. Does this mean that Cloud does not consist Aerith in the family, but instead in the group...? It's very possible.

So, that's all from me, these discussions were enough for my desire of the "fun discussing".

[Night Strife]

Hey, someone should start a website or forums for TifaxCloud. That would be awesome! ^_^

[silentchild]

Hey, someone should start a website or forums for TifaxCloud. That would be awesome! ^_^

There are plenty of Cloti shrines on the web, just do a google search. The largest one is probably cloti.aikou.net

Well, first of all, we're going nowhere with this discussion, so I'll stop it now, this'll be my last quote. Interpretation can't win against an interpretation, and we're fighting with these.


Yes, in that case I would fully accept it as Tifa calling Cloud.


Nojima did not negate the "happy ending" quote,


The peaceful life made him anxious, yes. But that does not make him incompatible with Tifa, as You think, and because of this anxiousness, he starts his delivery business with his bike. He can't stand in one place for long, it makes him anxious. Does this incompatibility? No. Does this make him incompatible with Tifa? No. Does this makes Your interpretation more valid? Hell no. :P

Oh I'm a bit lost, I haven't been in here for quite a bit, but I'll give this a tackle.

Does it make him more compatible with Tifa? No. Tifa doesn't like his delivery service. Does he stop it after AC? No. Does this mean he still feels anxious about peaceful life with Tifa? Probably yes or no. It just means he belongs on his bike, roaming the planet aerith loved so much.

Therefore, your interpretation is not any more valid than ours. It won't change our interpretation either.

No, You also got it wrong. Cloud has romantical feelings for her, but he couldn't let them out yet, and they're not evolved feelings. I never said that they're madly in love yet. It has to wait until AC.

How sad that we didn't see Cloud give seem to imply anything romantical towards her in AC.... :rolleyes2

But with the delivery service, Cloud is not anxious anymore, so if Tifa will acknoledge this (what she already did), then the so called incompatibility will go away.

And how do you know for sure? Even in CoT when Cloud was at home with the children, it irked Tifa's nerves. She was even jealous of Denzel, and she even dissaproved of the way Cloud interacted with the children.

And it's a very interesting thing that the flower placed in front of the group picture, and not in front of the family picture. Does this mean that Cloud does not consist Aerith in the family, but instead in the group...? It's very possible.

Actually, since the old family photo was somewhat pushed to the side, and the group photo took precedence, I merely saw it that the group photo was Cloud's real 'family' now. It wasn't just a miserable photo of a sad looking Cloud, Tifa and the kids. Now it was everyone, everyone is happy in the photo, these are the people he fought with two years ago, these people are now his 'family', and he's realized that. Aerith included of course, being the flowers in front of the photo as naturally, she cannot be actually 'in' the photo. It's merely a very symbolic way to represent her by placing the flower in front of the photo.

I don't see what this has to do with Cloud x Tifa.

I'm getting tired too. I have a feeling this discussion will end soon, but meh. It's been enjoyable.

[Pivi]

Therefore, your interpretation is not any more valid than ours. It won't change our interpretation either.

But I never said anything like this... I never said that my interpretation is more valid then Yours, that's why I respect Your interpretation also. There're a lot of ridicoluos interpretations, what I do not respect though, but it's not this one.

How sad that we didn't see Cloud give seem to imply anything romantical towards her in AC.... :rolleyes2

Hehe, because there's nearly no romance in AC. Nor between Cloud x Tifa, and nor between Cloud x Aerith.

And how do you know for sure? Even in CoT when Cloud was at home with the children, it irked Tifa's nerves. She was even jealous of Denzel, and she even dissaproved of the way Cloud interacted with the children.

Yes, because Cloud did not experienced a peaceful life like that before, he was anxious, and he did not know how to live a life like this. But like everything, with time he will come comfortable with it.
When someone experience something new, then he won't do very good at the first time, but at the second, third, ... he will get used to it.

Actually, since the old family photo was somewhat pushed to the side

Yes, I think Cloud wanted to cover his old self with the new photo out of the old picture, but he let Tifa and the children be visible.

I don't see what this has to do with Cloud x Tifa.

Nothing.
I just suggested, that I think Cloud considers Aerith as part of his big family (his friends), and not as part of his small family (Tifa and the children).

I have a feeling this discussion will end soon, but meh. It's been enjoyable.

Yes, I have to say I really enjoyed this discussion, but I have quite enough for a while.

[Anastar]

Well, first of all, we're going nowhere with this discussion, so I'll stop it now, this'll be my last quote. Interpretation can't win against an interpretation, and we're fighting with these.

That's all that's available to us. Even Nomura said he didn't know whether Tifa and Cloud were romantically involved, so there's nothing proven in the Compilations. All we have to work with is our interpretations. I just think the Compilation supports a Cleris interpretation much better than a Cloti interpretation.

Nojima did not negate the "happy ending" quote

SE likes to keep interpretations open, so Nojima didn't explicitly negate the "happy ending" quote NOR did he endorse it as correct. However, I think that Nojima's comment about the peaceful life making Cloud anxious negates the "happy ending" quote, although not explicitly.

The peaceful life made him anxious, yes. But that does not make him incompatible with Tifa, as You think, and because of this anxiousness, he starts his delivery business with his bike. He can't stand in one place for long, it makes him anxious. Does this incompatibility? No. Does this make him incompatible with Tifa? No. Does this makes Your interpretation more valid? Hell no. :P

Starting his delivery business because he can't stand staying in one place very long is just one example of his incompatibility with Tifa. He had to find something else to make him happy because his life at the Seventh Heaven with Tifa and the others didn't make him happy.

Yes, of course. It has a much less possibility, bit it has. :P

I just mean that you can say that *anything* is "possible". It's also "possible" that Cloud decides to become a transvestite, or that he grows a beard, or that he becomes a vegetarian, or that he starts a Motorcycle Racing Station at the Gold Saucer and ends up with Dio. Anything is "possible".

There are facial expressions, that equals to a question, You know. A dubious look, for example...

Since English isn't your first language, I guess you thought it could mean that he was uncertain about what she said. A dubious look actually means that you have doubts about the subject of conversation.

No, You also got it wrong. Cloud has romantical feelings for her, but he couldn't let them out yet, and they're not evolved feelings. I never said that they're madly in love yet. It has to wait until AC.

But there's nothing showing that they're madly in love in AC, either.

If he could get lost lives back, it would make that he's not guilty, thus he does not need forgiveness. It's not a romantic "bring her back" for me. He does not behave loke a forever in love person to me throughout CoT and AC.

Perhaps you have certain expectations what a "forever in love" person should act like, whereas the beginning of CoT was simply showing that Cloud didn't know what he wanted at the end of FFVII. I think he felt obligated to help Tifa get her life in order after all that she'd done for him, so he basically just went with the flow. He's still figuring things out for himself, but even Tifa considers him nothing but a friend in CoT. She says so right here:

Barret turned round and shouted, "Take care!" His voice was a little shaky. "Put the family's strength together and keep at it!"

**

Friends were a necessity to me so that I wouldn't get supressed by the sins in my consciousness. Even if they were companions that had the same wounds or were burdened with the same sins. We couldn't live without comforting each other and encouraging each other.

You could call that family maybe. We just had to put the family's strength together and do our best. Tifa thought she could get over anything being with friends that she could call family.

Barret obviously considers himself part of the "family", too. They were all friends helping each other out, so the "family" didn't just consist of Cloud, Tifa, Denzel, and Marlene. Barret was part of the family, too. CoT also stated that Marlene slept with Tifa, and that Cloud had his own room, so it's not like Cloud and Tifa were acting as a married couple with children. Cloti's tend to read way too much into the "family" references, given that Barret is part of the family and Tifa only sees it as friends helping one another out.

But with the delivery service, Cloud is not anxious anymore, so if Tifa will acknoledge this (what she already did), then the so called incompatibility will go away.

But the anxiousness did not go away with the delivery service, which means the incompatibility did not go away. If anything, the anxiousness increased.

Cloud was keeping a lot from Tifa. From the pictures over his desk, it's quite obvious that he was travelling to different places, perhaps in search of Aerith. We know he went to the Church, for example. Do you know how often he went there? If you found out that Cloud had been visiting the Church every day, would you tend to think that Cloud was acting like "forever in love" person after all? How do you know he wasn't going to the Church every day?

You're making a lot of assumptions about what Cloud was doing.

No. I assume he wasn't depressed, because after that, he was optimistic, he was smiled, etc. It's not like a depressed person. After geostigma, he was depressed, but before that, not.

How do you know he got depressed after Geostigma and not before? Remember the link I quoted for you in my last post where it says that men tend to suppress their grief and depression so that even doctors have a hard time recognizing it? If he's suppressing it, then you wouldn't see signs of it.

Should I say, that in my interpretation, I can debunk all of these points...? I do not think it's necessary, until You not try to tell me that Your interpretation is the absolute truthness. For me, it's very far from being the truthness, but I have to say I respect this theory also.

Where did I say my interpretation is the absolute truthfulness? Please find the quote where I said that. I believe in my interpretation, and I think a Cleris interpretation is far better substantiated than a Cloti interpretation, yes. But where did I say it's the absolute truth?

Well, the problem with this interpretation is that Zack also appeared for Cloud at the end of AC, end there's clearly nothing romantical between Cloud and Zack. So, is this means that the love between Cloud and Aerith is not necessarily romantical...? Yes, very much.

I meant that Aerith appeared in the bonus ending after AC where Zack did not appear, which means that Aerith still has her form after AC.

Okay, go ahead, I'll read it surely, but I won't comment anything here for a while, I really got tired of this discussion.
I don't care that much for the LT in AC, to run in circles this much...

Threads like this will do nothing but put one interpretation against another interpretation. If you don't enjoy doing that, then why start a thread on it?

[Night Strife]

Heh, there's a site, but no forums.

[silentchild]

But I never said anything like this... I never said that my interpretation is more valid then Yours, that's why I respect Your interpretation also. There're a lot of ridicoluos interpretations, what I do not respect though, but it's not this one.

Ok.

Hehe, because there's nearly no romance in AC. Nor between Cloud x Tifa, and nor between Cloud x Aerith.

That's how you see it. Most of us Clerises found many scenes between Cloud x Aerith in AC to be romantic, as she seemed to be the main motivation for him getting over his guilt, as well as symbolizing that she was always by his side, even if he is in trouble.

Yes, because Cloud did not experienced a peaceful life like that before, he was anxious, and he did not know how to live a life like this. But like everything, with time he will come comfortable with it.
When someone experience something new, then he won't do very good at the first time, but at the second, third, ... he will get used to it.

But how do you know this? How do you know Cloud wouldn't still much rather prefers to continue running his delivery service instead of staying at home being a good little boy? As far as we could see after AC, he is still running his delivery service. There is nothing to show us that he changes his lifestyle.

I just suggested, that I think Cloud considers Aerith as part of his big family (his friends), and not as part of his small family (Tifa and the children).

Barret also happens to be part of that 'small family', fyi. I don't see why Clotis keep pretending like Barret doesn't exist. It's small platonic family with three adults sleeping in different rooms.
It wouldn't make sense for someone dead to be part of this family that started rebuilding their lives together after FF7.

[Eternal Strife]

Pivi:

Hehe, because there's nearly no romance in AC. Nor between Cloud x Tifa, and nor between Cloud x Aerith.

Nothing romantic, but there was certainly much affection (deep warmth) portrayed. As far as affection goes, I saw much more between Cloud and Aerith. He appeared closer to her than anyone else, including Tifa.

Yes, because Cloud did not experienced a peaceful life like that before, he was anxious, and he did not know how to live a life like this. But like everything, with time he will come comfortable with it.
When someone experience something new, then he won't do very good at the first time, but at the second, third, ... he will get used to it.

Actually, I think silentchild was trying to point out that Cloud even paid more attention to the children than he did to Tifa. It's why she was a bit envious. It's a very good point because it indicates that there isn't any romantic feelings being reciprocated by Cloud. If there was, Cloud would be paying attention to her, and thus there would be no need for jealousy.

I just suggested, that I think Cloud considers Aerith as part of his big family (his friends), and not as part of his small family (Tifa and the children).

Well, first off...if you're going to separate Cloud's family into two categories, you can't forget poor old Barret. I think he fits in with Cloud's "small family" as well, no? According to CoT, he, Cloud, and Tifa came together to form this "family", didn't they? So the guy wasn't present when the picture was taken, but you certainly can't exclude someone just because they're not in a picture. As Anastar has also pointed out, Tifa considers their family as friends coming together, not a romance thing where she and Cloud tied the knot.

Secondly, the small portrait was behind the big portrait and off to the side. It wasn't exactly the focus of the camera either, as if indicating that Cloud's real completed family actually includes everyone as shown, and not just him, Tifa, and the children as Clotis previously thought.

His family includes all those who fought with him to save the Planet, the Avalanche companions you could say. However, Aerith wasn't even in the pictures, so I'm not sure how you could have lumped her in with the "bigger family" rather than the loveY doveY "little one" off to the side consisting of just Cloud, Tifa, and the two children (Barret as well). Personally, I think she has her own little category that does not include anyone else as I believe she has a special place in Cloud's heart.

[Moogle Molester]

do you all not relize that this controversey is endless,all the faqs on the matter are either for shadowed assumed or theoryized,not to mention every ones personal opinon in the mix