The relationship between Cloud and Tifa

[Christmas]

The ribbons they are wearing are a symbol of their friendship and how they're all fighting together. Cloud's wearing one, so is Tifa, and so are Barret, Cid and Yuffie. I don't remember seeing Vincent, Red XIII and Cait Sith with ribbons, but I'll see if they have them too. In addition, Ribbons were arguably the best accessories in FFVII since they protected you from all status ailments.

EDIT: Vincent, Red XIII and Cait Sith also have Ribbons in AC. And by the way, the Ribbons are red, not pink.

I'm pretty sure Cid's ribbon is pink too.

[Dominus-Ifrit]

Cloud and Aeris are more like soul-mates. And I think Tifa knows this real well, she's willing to have cloud on any level as long as she can have him.. she's ignoring his love for Aeris so she can love him. I never felt like Cloud felt the same for Tifa as Tifa does for Cloud.

[TheAbominatrix]

I think that ignores that Tifa was willing to put aside her feelings for Cloud indefinitly to help him through the troubles he was having. She never once so much as hit on him. That doesnt fit the profile of someone who is so desperate to have someone that they would take whatever they could get.

Not that your opinion is invalid, I just dont think the facts support that part of your statement.

[raskerino]

I totally agree with Abonimatrix here, and will add (though he may not agree) that Aeris was much more the type to ignore Tifa's feelings which she did frequently and I felt quite nastily. But this was went over in the why do u hate Aeris thread.

[Dominus-Ifrit]

I never said Tifa was desperate, she doesnt hit on him in the movie. Aeris was more of a competitive girl, if you recall from ff7, she made more than a few gestures where she would just take cloud and go off. I'll get you exact details later today, but when I said Tifa ignores how cloud feels about Aeris, I meant it in the way that she knows how those two felt for each other, but when you have one person who is dead and there is no possibility of ever being togethor again, she herself has to decide if she will go after cloud anymore or not. She is respectful and mindful of cloud's feelings.

I personally, always felt that cloud should have been with Tifa. Aeris was amazing, no doubt, but Tifa seems to have been a real old pal and she's a fighter so I'm sure she's been by his side fighting many times. They in a sense (to me) are more meant for each other than Aeris and Cloud, but hey.. opposites do and DID attract.

[zo-sama]

Personally, I think Tifa is in love with Cloud, but it is unrequited. It seemed kinda obvious to me, especially at the end of the movie where she's givin' him "the look."

The way Cloud responds to Aeris makes me believe he still really loves Aeris. Aaaand in conclusion, Aeris loves Zack. They both revisit Cloud to make sure he's ok, but they do it togeather. It really seemed like they were a couple just by the way they handled it in the movie.

[TheAbominatrix]

"she's willing to have cloud on any level as long as she can have him.." When you say this, my above statement applies. Tifa doesnt want Cloud on 'any level'. If she did, she could have had him. Hell, she could have messed with his mind further in the Lifestream. Tifa cares very strongly for Cloud, but she's willing to let him go and let him be with Aerith (pre-death) and to let him feel as he will.

I understand what you're saying, but I just wanted to clear up my interpretation of that.

We see, however, that Aerith doesnt seem willing (pre-death) to let Cloud love Tifa. Especially in the ways we see love points handed out (check the FAQ at RPGamer). There's at least one instance where Cloud being downright mean to Tifa will increase points with Aerith, while, in that same situation, being mean to Aerith will decrease points to both girls.

That being said, aside from the optional feelings the player decides upon and the results of those, Cloud doesnt show much affection at all for either girl. He quite clearly cares very deeply for both of them, but he never shows it in any sort of romantic way. What we see is both girls liking Cloud, not Cloud liking either of them, so I dont think there are any overt feelings from Cloud's side for either girl to ignore.

zo-sama, you may wanna read Case of Tifa, which is translated in a link earlier in this thread.

[zo-sama]

zo-sama, you may wanna read Case of Tifa, which is translated in a link earlier in this thread.

Thanks, I gave it a little read, but I still feel the same way. Although he does blush when he says those things to Tifa, I can't necessarily say it's because he likes her. I interpret it in the way that he is sharing a sensitive part of himself he doesn't usually share with people, thus making him blush. I know I'm worming around the facts, but just think about it. I guess it all comes down to Square-Enix and everyone not wanting to make fans angry about the pairings they choose. I guess it's all probably just personal preference. Btw, that was a spiffy website!

[TheAbominatrix]

I definitly agree, I just thought you may be interested. Your opinion is perfectly valid.

And I agree as well, strongly, on SE not wanting to make anyone mad by setting down a canon relationship for Cloud.

[Dominus-Ifrit]

Okay, maybe I read way too much into this detail we are all forgetting.. doesn't cloud have this extremely spiritual/depressing/metaphysical moment where he is putting Aeris dead body into the little lake/ lifestream? The way he looks at her and she looks back at him, in all the fmv's in ff7 show me they had like an unspoken love. When Aeris died, cloud was torn apart.

And about Aeris and Zack.. I didn't think about that till now, but was Zack the one to initially go into mt. niebelhem (spelling?) and try to save Aeris and go after Sephiroth?

PS - Didn't Cloud leave Tifa with Barrett's gang at the bar while he went off to join SOLDIER?

[TheAbominatrix]

But who is to say he wouldnt have done the same for Tifa? I'm positive that had Tifa died, or had Barret died, or whatever, he would have had an extremely emotional moment. People act like he was only upset that she died because he loved her, but first and foremost he was her friend. Even if he loved her, he would have been extremely torn apart by the death of Tifa. Even if he loves Tifa, Aerith's death still tore him apart.

All we see is Cloud lowering her body into the water. Any emotions you percieve are, of course, your own interpretations.

You have the events of the game rather muddled, though. Here's a bare bones timeline for you, with a bit of emphasis on the events you're confused with.
-Tifa and Cloud grow up together in Nibelheim
-Cloud leaves Nibelheim to join SOLDIER
-Cloud fails to make it in SOLDIER, but does become a grunt.
-Cloud as a grunt, the SOLDIER Zack, and the infamous Sephiroth come to Nibelheim on a mission. Cloud never reveals himself to Tifa.
-Sephiroth goes crazy and slaughters the townspeople before going to the Reactor, where he kills Tifa's father. Tifa goes after her father and is wounded. Zack fails to stop Sephiroth, ultimately Cloud does.
-Tifa, barely alive, is taken to Midgar by her martial arts instructor.
-Cloud and Zack are taken to the Shin Ra mansion basement and experimented on by Hojo for 5 years.
-Tifa starts a new life in Midgar, and eventually meets Barret and joins AVALANCHE due to her hatred of the Shin Ra for the events in Nibelhiem.
-Cloud and Zack escape to Midgar, Cloud in a catatonic state. Zack is killed and Cloud is found by Tifa at the train station, in Zack's uniform.

[silentchild]

But who is to say he wouldnt have done the same for Tifa? I'm positive that had Tifa died, or had Barret died, or whatever, he would have had an extremely emotional moment.

A valid interpretation, but you can also take into consideration the fact that he had thought Tifa had died once in FF7.

The Nibelheim incident. When Sephiroth attacks Tifa, Cloud recites, "I thought you were a goner......I was really sad." This shows he thought she died. However, let us observe the difference in his reactions towards Tifa's 'death' and Aerith's 'death'.

Tifa's death :
Cloud carefully puts her leaning against a pod and immediately charges in after Sephiroth.
"Soldier: Mom... Tifa... my town... give it back... I had so much respect for
you... I admired you..."

And we get Cloud's crowning moment of throwing Sephiroth into the Mako pit. Notice how Cloud seems more focused on his hatred and dissapointment towards Sephiroth rather than grief over Tifa's 'death'.

Now for Aerith's death :

Cloud: ...Aerith. This can't be real!
Cloud: ...Shut up. The cycle of nature and your stupid plan don't mean a thing.
Aerith is gone. Aerith will no longer talk, no longer laugh, cry...... or get
angry...... What about us...... what are WE supposed to do? What about my pain?
My fingers are tingling. My mouth is dry. My eyes are burning!
Sephiroth: What are you saying? Are you trying to tell me you have feelings too?
Cloud: Of course! Who do you think I am!?
Sephiroth: Ha, ha, ha...... Stop acting as if you were sad. There's no need to
act as though you're angry either. Because, Cloud. You are...

Game script from : http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/f..._script_d1.txt

IF Cloud was not showing any emotion like you claim, why would SEPHIROTH claim that Cloud is 'acting like you are sad'? If you look, Cloud shows a lot more emotion over Aerith's 'death', even going as far as to say, "The cycle of nature and your stupid plan don't mean a thing."
Whereas if compared to Tifa's death, he seems much more focused on Sephiroth, sharing his grief equally over his mom, Tifa AND Nibelheim.
During Aerith's death he speaks in a much more personal manner : "What about US? What are WE supposed to do?"
The rest of the party also offer consolation to Cloud, they let him have his own private little moment with him laying her to peace, which implies that they all KNEW that Aerith meant somoething MORE to Cloud compared to them.

Also, if you read MoTP, it is quoted, "At Cloud's face as he barely held himself together, his mind on the brink of shattering, with the sadness at the loss of her, and the anger and hatred for the one who took her life."

....barely held himself together......on the brink of shattering.....sadness at the loss of her.....do you still stand by your take that CLoud shows no emotion over her death?

Thus your claim that :

All we see is Cloud lowering her body into the water. Any emotions you percieve are, of course, your own interpretations.

Debunked.

[Sefie1999AD]

When Cloud came to avenge Tifa and Nibelheim in the reactor, he was full of rage and probably in panic after everything he saw, and at least he couldn't think clearly. He was also only 16 at that point. It's been said in the game that Cloud wanted to do everything to make Tifa notice him, and he did fulfill his promise to Tifa that if she ever was in trouble, he'd come and help her.

What's this MoTP you're talking about? I've never heard about it. Even so, the FMV in the game doesn't show Cloud having any sadness or being close to shattering when he's dropping Aeris' body to the water. So the game debunks that too. As for Cloud's speech to Sephiroth when Aeris died, I think he made a similar speech to Sephiroth in Nibelheim. It was in Cloud's Kalm flashback, but it doesn't sound like Zack and could fit Cloud, so I think it was Cloud who said it:

CLOUD: "What about MY sadness!? My family... friends... The sadness of having my hometown taken away from me!? It's the same as your sadness!"

Okay, you could claim it was Zack who said that, but since that speech is so much similar to Cloud's speech when Aeris dies, you can come to the conclusion that the Zack part of Cloud (the part that made him care about Aeris) made Cloud act so emotional when Aeris died. In addition, I think in the PC version, Cloud said: "What is this pain!? My fingers are tingling, my mouth is dry, my eyes are burning!" which makes sense when Sephiroth asks him, "Are you trying to tell me you have feelings too?"

Oh, and do you remember after Cloud stabbed Sephiroth in the reactor?

CLOUD: "Mom... Tifa... my town... give it back..." (stabs)
CLOUD: "I had so much respect for you... I admired you..."

Cloud walks back, and turns away. It looks like he's crying or at least trying to hold his tears.

Finally, after Cloud returns from the Lifestream at Disc 2, I don't see him talking much about Aeris or grieving over her death. I think Disc 2 and Disc 3 are all Cloud-Tifa. Okay, you can treat Tifa badly and not take her in your party and just keep Aeris there, but it's also just as possible to treat Tifa well and keep her together with Cloud all the time while being rude to Aeris ("you were the slum drunk", dropping all the wrong barrels, "Tifa is your girlfriend? / Yes, that's right" etc) and never having Aeris in your party.

[silentchild]

What's this MoTP you're talking about? I've never heard about it.

Maiden Over The Planet / Maiden Flowing Through The Planet / Hoshi o Meguru Otome - whatever you want to call it. It's the official Aerith Novella included in FFVII - Ultimania Omega and consists of seven chapters. So far only the Prelude and Chapter Six have been translated. I would share the link, but my browser isn't working at the moment. I can edit this post with the link later.

Even so, the FMV in the game doesn't show Cloud having any sadness or being close to shattering when he's dropping Aeris' body to the water. So the game debunks that too.

Sorry, no. Please refer to limitations of computer graphics waaay back in 1997.

As for Cloud's speech to Sephiroth when Aeris died, I think he made a similar speech to Sephiroth in Nibelheim.

It was in Cloud's Kalm flashback, but it doesn't sound like Zack and could fit Cloud, so I think it was Cloud who said it:

You think? Sorry, not going to take that point then. What 'you think' has nothing to do with me, especially not in a debate.

In addition, I think in the PC version, Cloud said: "What is this pain!? My fingers are tingling, my mouth is dry, my eyes are burning!" which makes sense when Sephiroth asks him, "Are you trying to tell me you have feelings too?"

Sorry, NO. Sephiroth states that sentence AFTER Cloud says that line. So no, your interpretation is not valid.

Cloud walks back, and turns away. It looks like he's crying or at least trying to hold his tears.

So? Your point is?

Finally, after Cloud returns from the Lifestream at Disc 2, I don't see him talking much about Aeris or grieving over her death.

Gee....I wonder.

You want a very nice breakdown of Cloud interactions with Tifa and Cloud's references to Aerith in Disc 2 and 3?

Look here : http://www.geocities.com/ff7lovetriangle/Preface.htm

Read it before trying to tell me that Cloud is all about Tifa in Disc 2 and 3.

Okay, you can treat Tifa badly and not take her in your party and just keep Aeris there, but it's also just as possible to treat Tifa well and keep her together with Cloud all the time while being rude to Aeris ("you were the slum drunk", dropping all the wrong barrels, "Tifa is your girlfriend? / Yes, that's right" etc) and never having Aeris in your party.

Same applies to Tifa, no? You can ALSO choose to tell Aerith that Tifa is NOT your girlfriend. Besides, Johnny also refers to Aerith as Cloud's 'new girlfriend' and that is NOT optional.

Aerith is also the DEFAULT DATE for Cloud. Even if you score the same affection points will Tifa, you will still go on the date with Aerith.

Let me share a tip with you, pal. The Dating Mechanism is NOT a good thing to use in debates, especially as it puts Tifa in a complete disadvantage.

[TheAbominatrix]

When I'm more awake, I'll get to responding to all this. I'd just like to say real quick that I didnt mean he showed no emotion, I meant that all the 'longing' or whatever perceived in the FMV is just perception. He looked the same as always to me, as did Aerith, because of the graphics.