The relationship between Cloud and Tifa

[Anastar]

The blushing scene, the holding scene, and nearly everything before he got geostigma and his depression.
Should I quote them out of Case of Tifa?

No need to quote them. I know the blushing scene and I don't find it romantic. I interpreted that as simple embarrassment. The holding scene? You mean where Cloud puts his hand on her shoulder? Again, that was from Tifa's point of view. Tifa thought it felt like Cloud didn't want to let her go. How did Cloud feel about it? I'd like to know what Cloud is feeling at that moment... not Tifa.

Even IF the gesture meant that Cloud didn't want to let her go, why do you assume that it has a romantic basis? How do you know it's not because he didn't want his friend to meet a fate similar to Aerith? How do you know that the gesture doesn't reflect his grief over Aerith rather than his feelings for Tifa? A father, for example, may put his hand on his daughter's shoulder in the same way during his wife's funeral. The gesture reflects the man's grief for his wife and caring for his daughter. Does it portray love in a romantic sense for the daughter? No.

and nearly everything before he got geostigma

Nearly everything?!? So Barret's in love with Tifa, too? Barret travelled with Tifa, talked with Tifa, drank with Tifa, and helped Tifa rebuild the Seventh Heaven along with Cloud. Barret moved into the Seventh Heaven, too. I don't see Barret acting any differently towards Tifa than Cloud during the early part of CoT, so are you saying that Barret's in love with Tifa, too?

And by the way... I don't think it was ever specified at what point Cloud contracted Geostigma, was it? Are you just assuming that he must have gotten Geostigma at the same time his behavior changed? That's a pretty large assumption, since I see several other factors affecting his behavior.

What do you base that on, and why does that mean that he'll move on with Tifa?

Based on my interpretation on the whole compilation. Wow, who thought, eh...?

No, not the whole compilation. I'm asking what you have taken from AC, CoT, and MotP to base your interpretation on.

If Cloud continues acting the way he did in CoT, then he may have simply said, "I found this by the side of the road" and never mentioned what it had to do with Aerith.

I have bolded the word for You. But he does not have geostigma, so I don't think he would.

But I don't think that Geostigma was the only reason for his actions toward Tifa in CoT. Therefore, I think he would act that way.

Again, it was never specified at what point he got Geostigma, so how do you know it was only Geostigma that made him act that way? I see him continuing to act that way now that he doesn't have Geostigma when he doesn't tell Tifa that he's in the flower field, and when he doesn't tell Tifa why he's taking the day off in Reminiscence.

How do you know he did not tell Tifa that Aerith is in the flower field? How do you know that he did not tell Tifa that he can communicate with Aerith? How do You know he did not tell Tifa that he sees Aerith sometimes?

How do you know that he did? If he didn't tell Tifa that he was in the flower field in the same way he didn't tell Tifa that he delivered a bouquet to the Forgotten City for Elmyra, then it's more likely that he didn't.

And for the biggest question, how do you know that he can communicate with Aerith and that he sees Aerith sometimes?

Because Cloud was able to communicate with Aerith and see her in AC.

I haven't heard Reminiscence myself

How can You use something in a debate that You're not familiar with...?

Where did I say I wasn't familiar with it? I said I hadn't *HEARD* it, which means I have not heard the recording, so I can't speak about the sounds. However, I have read the translation several times, and I have seen many screenshots from it.... so I am familiar with it, thank you.

Do You answer a phone call with a 'Hey, it's me', followed by a full sentence, and not asking what the caller wants...? Because there's no people who acts like this.
So Cloud called Tifa. He stopped to call her if there's anything else to do.

Here’s what people who have heard it say about whether Tifa called Cloud, or whether Cloud called Tifa. The first is from Clorith at ACF:

Alright everyone. Everybody, go watch Reminiscence again. I can't believe we're still harping over who's calling. >__< Tifa calls Cloud, that is very obvious. The first thing we hear is the phone ringing, then a click as Cloud opens it, then the sound of Cloud pressing the button to take the call. I think those in doubt have forgotten that this entire scene is viewed from a third person's (Aerith's) perspective. It makes no sense whatsoever for you to be able to hear Tifa answering the phone, yet at the same time be unable to hear her speak. Not only that, when the conversation ends, we again hear Cloud press that button, followed by him flipping his phone close. Seriously, all this is as clear as day, and makes complete sense. The call interrupts Cloud while he is in the flower field, Cloud does not make a call. Just listen to the clip carefully.

From yin-chan at ACF:

Yes, you also hear the sound of him flipping open the phone and pressing the 'answer button'.

If it were the sound of him calling Tifa, I don't see how she can flip open that bulky phone in Seventh Heaven, or press any button to answer, for that matter. Besides, you wouldn't be able to hear the other side press a button if you were calling.

As I said, the sounds heard in the recording make it quite clear that Tifa is calling Cloud. I've heard the same report from other people.

He's taking a dayout with all of his friends. That's what the Reminisence calls are about, so You should listen to it (or read the call translations), before You make false interpretations of the scenes...

The Reminiscence calls are not all about Cloud taking a day off with all of his friends. Yuffie’s trying to call, but Cloud doesn’t answer, so she calls Cid and Vincent and has them call Cloud. Cid calls and tells Cloud that Yuffie wants him to stop by Barret’s to pick something up. Then Vincent calls to tell him the same thing. Then Barret calls. He says that he has a present to give Cloud from Yuffie. When Cloud opens the present, it’s a “Shop Closed” sign.

Now… if the "Shop Closed" sign was to close BOTH the Seventh Heaven and Cloud’s shop, then why would Yuffie give it to Barret to give to Cloud? Wouldn’t Yuffie just give the sign to Tifa? Since Yuffie gives it to Barret to give to Cloud, and since Yuffie says it's a present specifically for Cloud, then the sign is *only* for Cloud’s shop. There’s nothing about anyone but Cloud taking the day off during Reminiscence.

Another indication that we get from Yuffie giving the sign to Barret instead of Tifa is that Yuffie knows it will bother Tifa. Why would Tifa be bothered? Because Cloud intends to take the day off without including Tifa in his plans.

Having read through all of Case of Tifa, and knowing how deeply Cloud care for Tifa (being it romantic or not, it's not matter at this time), it wasn't an illusion, and that's why I made my interpretation, as I made.

I agree that Cloud cares for Tifa, but it is possible to care for the welfare of a friend. He doesn’t have to care about her in a romantic sense. I make my interpretation that it was an illusion on the basis of how poorly Cloud and Tifa got along during Case of Tifa while Cloud lived in Seventh Heaven. Even Marlene told Barret that Cloud and Tifa were getting along badly.

Q: At the end of FFVII, Cloud saved the world and was on the way to a happy ending but, in the two years towards AC, he returned to the way he was in the past. What happened to him?
Nojima: Cloud never had a boring personality in the first place so when he started living with Tifa and started out his job, the peaceful life that he had never experienced before made him anxious. During that time, he also contracted Geostigma so it's to protect the ones precious to him or not, he had to face death and ran away.

Cloud was on the way to a happy ending. Did Nojima say that the happy ending involved Tifa? Did Nojima say that Cloud was on his way to a happy ending with Tifa, or that Cloud and Tifa were on their way to a happy ending together? No.

Nojima also says that it was the peaceful life that Cloud was living with Tifa that made Cloud anxious, not the Geostigma. People don’t enjoy a lifestyle which makes them feel anxious, do they? How do you know that the same lifestyle won’t make him anxious now, since Geostigma had nothing to do with it? How do you know that other things weren’t bothering Cloud about that lifestyle?

Is there any incompatibiltiy with Tifa...? No, there isn't.

According to your interpretation. According to my interpretation, there’s a great deal of incompatibility. More than anything else, however, you have Tifa asking Cloud near the end of CoT whether he loves her. All Cloud gives her is a dubious look. How can you think that Cloud acts romantically to Tifa when all he gives her is a dubious look when she asks that?!?

If my boyfriend gave me nothing but a dubious look when I asked him if he loved me, I would know that his response translated into “NO” - loud and clear. Then again, I wouldn’t even need to ask my boyfriend such a thing, because I already know how he feels from his words and actions to me. So why doesn’t Tifa know? Probably because their interactions haven’t been romantic.

It really makes sense. Cloud changed his behaviour suddenly. What happened to him? He contracted geostigma. So in the first hand, he felt depression not only because of Aerith's death (don't forget that when they first visited Aerith's grave in CoT, Tifa was the one who cried, and he was the one, who tried to calm her), but because the effect of geostigma.

Cloud’s behavior didn’t change as suddenly as you claim. There was a gradual progression of Cloud detaching himself. At first they were traveling and busy with re-building the Seventh Heaven. I saw the change in personality start soon after he moved into the Seventh Heaven.

As for Cloud’s actions at the Forgotten City, remember what I said above about the father showing grief for his wife by holding his daughter’s shoulder? People have different ways of showing their grief. Females more commonly display their grief through tears than men do. Some may choose to stay silent and seem depressed, whereas others will keep themselves constantly occupied with work, exercise or other responsibilities. Cloud stayed busy during FFVII chasing Sephiroth, defeating the Weapons, defeating Hojo, etc. At the end of the game, he was most likely still figuring things out for himself. He probably didn’t know what he was going to do or where he was going to go. He kept his feelings inside, and kept himself busy with traveling and re-building the Seventh Heaven. If Cloud wasn’t still experiencing grief, then why did he come home after taking the bouquet to the Forgotten City for Elmyra and drink alcohol? That was unusual for Cloud, and an expression of his grief. From CoT:

Tifa "Hey, Cloud. Do you like Marlene?"
Cloud "Yeah. But sometimes I don't know how to approach her."
Tifa "Even though we've been together for sometime?"
Cloud "Just that itself isn't enough maybe."
Tifa "Even we aren't enough for you?"
Cloud didn't answer.
Tifa "Sorry for asking some strange things."
Cloud "Don't apologize. It's my problem."
Cloud closed his eyes.
Tifa "Lets work hard together."
Cloud didn't answer.

Notice that Cloud doesn’t even answer when Tifa asked whether “we” are enough for Cloud? Is that how you would respond to someone whom you loved?!? Then Tifa offers to work together with him to resolve the problem. Again, Cloud doesn’t answer. That says to me that he doesn’t want her help. (BTW, I see this passage to be another example of their incompatibility.)

Later, Tifa asked him again whether the problem referred to in the above passage had been resolved and Cloud answered, "The problem isn't resolved. Well, there was no attempt at resolving it for a long time I think. You can't retrieve lost lives."

His main problem is the inability to retrieve lost lives. If the inability to retrieve lost lives is his main problem, then the loss of Aerith is still Cloud’s main problem, and therefore he is still experiencing grief at her loss. You can also tell that he misses Aerith if her loss is still his main problem. And even Tifa realizes that she isn’t enough.

He had those feelings in FF7, yes. But in AC...? I don't think so. Well, I'm pretty sure that he has some romantical feelings inside him (he did not let her go yet), but it's not the same feeling as it was in FF7

Please give me quotes to substantiate what you're saying.

Hmmm, her feelings are much more caring feelings in AC then romantical for me...
Yes, it was clear that she loved Cloud romantically, but somehow after I read Maiden, I had the impression, that he changed to a "mother" figure (not because of the "Mother" comment in AC), and she cared not only for Cloud, but for everyone. So I had the impression, that she let go of him romantically.

Then why is Aerith’s form still showing at the end of the movie in Calling? Why does Aerith turn as Cloud approaches the flower field on Fenrir?

And another question is, if Aerith can manifestate herself that easily in the "upper world", then why didn't she do that...? If she loves Cloud that much romantically, why didn't she manifestate when he was depressed, and when he started struggling because of geostigma...? She made very few appearances through AC, and that's just for stirring Cloud to the right direction, and not to confess their love.

I thought she did. We heard the recording of her voice over the cell phone as it dropped into the water, so she had apparently attempted to contact him. His grief and/or guilt may have made him “shut down his mind” to the point that it was difficult for her to reach him, similar to how it was difficult to reach him in MotP when Sephiroth shattered his mind at the Reunion. It may also be that Sephiroth’s remnants made it difficult for Aerith to reach Cloud’s mind. However, Cloud went to her Church to live. Why would he go to a place associated with Aerith to live the remainder of his life? Most people want to spend their remaining days with those who are most precious to them.

It may also be that SE simply wanted to leave it up to speculation whether or not Cloud had communicated with Aerith during the two years prior to AC because we didn’t get a story from Cloud’s perspective. I would actually say that Cloud had communicated with Aerith before AC. Otherwise, why didn’t Cloud show any surprise at Aerith’s appearance in the flower field as he approached the Forgotten City to rescue the children?

Even Cloud did not behave like one, who is eternally in love with her... He wanted forgiveness from her, and not to be with her forever.

Moving to Aerith’s Church, visiting Aerith’s flower field, taking pictures of Aerith’s flower field, and picking flowers from Aerith’s flower field all seem like demonstrations of Cloud’s desire to be with Aerith to me. Telling Tifa that his main problem is the inability “to retrieve lost lives” is basically saying that he wants Aerith back, which means that he wants to be with her.

If that's the case, then why did Cloud behave like he did in the first part of CoT...? Why was he optimistic, why did he want to start a new life with Tifa, Marlene and Barret, why did he show some affection towards Tifa (blushing scene in CoT, for example), and why he changed suddenly...?

Answered above.

A romantical love that never dies, is much like Vincent's and Lucrecia's love, but not like Cloud's and Aerith's. Vincent is behaving much like the one, who'll never love another woman romantically, but Cloud is not.

But Vincent and Lucrecia’s love is not a romantic love that will never die. Lucrecia didn’t love Vincent. So, Vincent is actually acting like someone whose love for a woman was never returned.

(Pssst... yo, Pivi! We say “romantic” in English, not “romantical”.)