The relationship between Cloud and Tifa

[Anastar]

Yes, that's exactly why I don't like to quote anything from the compilation, because I know most of the Cleris povs, thus I know how they interpret things differently.

Since we see things differently, then I won't know where you get your interpretation unless you explain where you get your interpretation. If you don't quote the passage that made you think that Cloud felt romantically toward Tifa, and I didn't see any such thing happening, then I'll be clueless how you got your interpretation. That's why I ask for quotes and substantiation.

Please. You know that i do not meant every single word, just that I interpreted romance out of the first part of CoT.

So far, I've only heard two things that you interpreted as romantic: the blushing scene and the hand on the shoulder scene. If those are the only two scenes where you see any hint of romance, then I don't know how in the world you can claim that the "entire first part of CoT" is romantic.

Yes. His behaviour changed very suddenly, although he visited Aerith's grave, and he did not show that much saddness or sorrow. So, there has to be something that changed him, and I think that was geostigma. No, it was not stated when he contracted it, but I think his sudden change has to do something with it.

I think this is our main bone of contention. I don't see the change in Cloud's behavior as sudden, and I think you're underestimating the amount of grief and sorrow Cloud felt at Aerith's grave. If Cloud has to drink alcohol after delivering a bouquet there, and if Tifa herself knows how difficult that would be for Cloud, then he's feeling a lot more grief and sorrow than you acknowledge. You have to remember, too, that Cloud himself says that main problem is the "inability to retrieve lost lives". If that's his main problem, then the death of Aerith is his main problem, and therefore he was going through a lot at her grave.

I'll have to go through CoT and designate how I see a gradual change, rather than a sudden change, happening in Cloud's behavior.

When I refer to the compilation, I refer to FF7, LO, CoT and MotP.

I don't consider LO legitimate, since there's so many errors in it. It contradicts the script of FF7 in too many places. I doubt Cloti's would even want to consider LO legitimate, considering that it makes Tifa into a huge liar.

You quoted from Clerises, who want to think that Tifa called Cloud, sorry, but it's no proof. I'll look reminisence again, and watch for that part, but Cloud's first sentence is very clealy states for me, that he called Tifa, and not Tifa him. You can think otherwise, no problem, but Cloud's first sentence is very avkward, ih Tifa had called him.

Or unless there's another translation for that line. For example, what if Tifa had said, "Cloud?" when he picked up, and he answered, "Yeah, it's me"? Vilaeth acknowledged that the sounds were the same as in the other calls, and he isn't partial to the Cleris interpretation. I didn't ask him about the translation, though, coz I didn't foresee your interpretation.

Clorith's explanation is very interesting, though. Clorith believes that we're seeing the Tifa-Cloud call from a third person's point of view, as if Aerith is standing there waiting for Cloud to finish the call. That's why Clorith believes we're unable to hear Tifa's voice, like you could hear the other people talking in the other calls. That's quite possible.

Because Cloud was the one, who was always away due to his delivery service. Why Tifa should close the Seventh heaven bar, if they can make the reunion at that place (the photo was taken in front of 7th Heaven)...? It does not make any sense.

It also wouldn’t make sense for Barret to ask Cloud to give presents to Marlene and Denzel for him if Barret were going to be there for the “Reunion” the next day, so that photo wasn’t taken after Reminiscence. It also looks to me as if they're standing in front of the Church, not the 7th Heaven.

Do You really think that Yuffie gave the sign to Cloud, that he can close the shop, and can go to Aerith in the flower fields...? According to Your theory, he can meet her every time he's on a delivery run. Why does he need a day off, to do this...?

Maybe it doesn’t seem logical to you because it’s something that someone who’s still in love would want to do. Maybe he doesn’t want to be interrupted by deliveries for once? Notice that Cloud won’t do that for Tifa in CoT, but he does it for Aerith after meeting her.

I agree that Cloud cares for Tifa, but it is possible to care for the welfare of a friend.

Yes, it is possible. I do not believe in it, but it's possible, I never said elsewhere.

Hmmm… then I guess we have to assume that Cloud and Zack had a love relationship, since Zack rescued Cloud from Hojo’s lab. Barret must be in love with Tifa, too, since he rescued her from Scarlet in Junon.

*cough* depression *cough* geostigma *cough*

This is part of our main contention regarding the sudden vs. gradual change in Cloud’s behavior. More about this later.

Cloud was on the way to a happy ending. Did Nojima say that the happy ending involved Tifa? Did Nojima say that Cloud was on his way to a happy ending with Tifa, or that Cloud and Tifa were on their way to a happy ending together? No.

Isn't it logical that if Cloud starts living with Tifa, and starts a family with her, then the happy ending involves Tifa too...? Yes it is.

Let’s look at that quote again:

Q: At the end of FFVII, Cloud saved the world and was on the way to a happy ending but, in the two years towards AC, he returned to the way he was in the past. What happened to him?

Nojima: Cloud never had a boring personality in the first place so when he started living with Tifa and started out his job, the peaceful life that he had never experienced before made him anxious. During that time, he also contracted Geostigma so it's to protect the ones precious to him or not, he had to face death and ran away.

So it was the *interviewer*, not Nojima, who said that Cloud was on his way to a happy ending. I could care less what the interviewer thinks.

It’s Nojima, however, who says that the life Cloud had at the Seventh Heaven with Tifa made him anxious. From what Nojima says, Cloud was feeling anxious before contracting Geostigma, which would fit my interpretation better than yours! :P

Yes, actually I agree with this.
That's why I'm only saying that there's a possibility for Tifa and Cloud, and nothing that "OMG, they will make babies".

I would agree that there’s a possibility for Tifa and Cloud, just as there’s a possibility for single Cloud and a possibility that Cloud will love Aerith eternally. There’s also a possibility that Tifa will get together with Barret, Reno, or Vincent instead of Cloud. I’ve always thought Barret had a thing for Tifa, anyway. After all, Barret told Tifa after the Lifestream event that she was “some kinda lady”. *woot*

According to my interpretation, there’s a great deal of incompatibility

Bolded out DA WORD.

Yes, we have two different interpretations of the story. Where’s the news in that? I thought we were discussing our different interpretations? Please remember that yours is nothing but an interpretation, too. I plan to show you in great detail how I got the interpretation of incompatibility, too.

Oh, I love this scene, nearly every Cleris brings this up.
Well, in my interpretation, Cloud gives her a dubious look, because he did not know, if he heard that question right (if he heard it at all, don't forget, that he was sleepng then). After that, Tifa quickly covers up with the "Do You love/like Marlene?" sentence.

If he wasn’t sure of the question, then why didn’t he ask her to repeat it? If I’m not sure of what someone said, I ask them to repeat it. Most people do.

His dubious look is way too similar to his later response to Tifa when he was fully awake for me to think he didn’t hear her question. Look at the entire passage:

Tifa "Do you love me?"
Cloud woke up, a dubious look on his face.
Tifa "Hey, Cloud. Do you like Marlene?"
Cloud "Yeah. But sometimes I don't know how to approach her."
Tifa "Even though we've been together for sometime?"
Cloud "Just that itself isn't enough maybe."
Tifa "Even we aren't enough for you?"
Cloud didn't answer.
Tifa "Sorry for asking some strange things."
Cloud "Don't apologize. It's my problem."

Tifa asked if “we” are enough for Cloud, which includes herself. That’s basically asking him the same thing, and he didn’t answer. According to your interpretation, Cloud would have to be in love with Tifa at this point for you to see the entire first part of CoT as romantic, yet he has no answer for Tifa when she asks if she is enough. Someone who’s in love wouldn’t respond like that.

Instead, he refers to his “problem”, and we later find out what that problem is: the inability to retrieve lost lives, which refers to getting Aerith back.

That was the "anxious" part from the interview, and no incompatibility.

If a lifestyle makes you feel anxious, then you are unhappy with it. If you are unhappy with a way of living, that makes you incompatible with a person who wants to live that way.

Yes, but if he was that depressed the first time, why was he optimistic, cheerful, why was he smiling after that scene, etc...? No, he was not that depressed at the first time at all.

You assume that he wasn’t depressed because he didn’t break down in tears like Tifa did. However, men show grief differently than women:

Men also tend to deal with the loss of a loved one differently than women. This also may be related to the belief that men must be strong in the face of adversity, and that showing emotion is a sign of weakness. Men tend to assume full responsibility for their bereavement and suppress their grief. …

Because they feel unable to openly express their feelings, many men deal with grief by taking on more activities—such as working overtime or going on business trips—to occupy their time. They may become involved in risk-taking behavior, such as dangerous sports or compulsive sexual activity. Some addictive behaviors, such as alcohol or other drug abuse, can escalate as the result of suppressed grief.

Source: http://www.clevelandclinic.org/healt...asp?index=9307 (Depression in Men – Bereavement)

You are expecting Cloud to show his grief in a manner similar to Tifa. In reality, Cloud may actually be feeling grief - but not openly expressing it – simply because that’s what men tend to do. Men tend to suppress their grief, so Cloud wouldn’t be showing outward signs of it. However, we do see his grief expressed when Cloud resorts to drinking alcohol after taking a bouquet to Aerith’s grave. When Tifa learned he was taking a bouquet to Aerith’s grave, Tifa acknowledged that it would be difficult for him to do, which shows that even Tifa knows that Cloud is in grief. Cloud also says that his main problem is the “inability to retrieve lost lives”, which means that his main problem is the inability to bring Aerith back. If that’s his main problem, then he is grieving for her even though you don’t see the outward signs of it that you expect to see.

Miss her? Yes, he misses her. Miss her as an eternal love and as an undying romantic bond? No, I don't think so.
He blamed himself for her death, he thought that he can't help anyone precious to him (Tifa and the children), he went back to the "I'm not good for anything" state. It's not a romantic thing.

You are looking at symptoms of depression and thinking that we view that as romantic love. What you refer to are actually symptoms of his depression. Symptoms of depression from http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk.../symptoms.htm:

* You seldom enjoy the things that you used to enjoy-you may be off sex or food or may 'comfort eat' to excess.
* You don't want to see people or are scared to be left alone. Social activity may feel hard or impossible.
* You feel like a failure and/or feel guilty a lot of the time.
* You feel a burden to others.
* You can see no future. There is a loss of hope. You feel all you've ever done is make mistakes and that's all that you ever will do.
* You feel you have no confidence.
* You spend a lot of time thinking about what has gone wrong, what will go wrong or what is wrong about yourself as a person. You may also feel guilty sometimes about being critical of others (or even thinking critically about them).
* You feel that life is unfair.

What you cite is actually evidence of Cloud’s depression due to grief over Aerith's death and the inability to bring her back, so it’s actually an expression of Cloud’s grief. I don’t believe it was ever said that depression was a symptom of Geostigma.

What Cleris people see as evidence of his undying love for Aerith is going out to flower field to meet her, gathering flowers from the place where she is, taking multiple photographs of the flower field, and going to live in Aerith’s Church when he thought he was dying. What we see as undying love for Aerith is Cloud’s unhappiness while living at the Seventh Heaven. What we see as undying love for Aerith is Cloud telling Tifa that she isn’t enough to solve his problem, which is the “inability to retrieve lost lives”. What we see as undying love for Aerith is the way Cloud looks up into the brightness of the Holy rain brought by Aerith. What we see as undying love for Aerith is wanting to take the day off to spend a whole day in the flower field with Aerith.

Another question that has to be asked is why Cloud would fall into depression if he’s in love with Tifa and living a happy life with her? If this is what makes Cloud happy, and this is the life he’s always wanted, then why would he become depressed?

Cloud: I want forgiveness... Yes, forgiveness.
Did he said that he wants to be with her? Or he want to meet her? Or anything romantic? No.
He does not behave like someone, whose long lost only love appeared in front of him.

I actually see this and matters brought up in the remainder of your post from a different perspective than I did yesterday after giving it some thought, so I’m going to go off on a completely different track.

From Maiden over the Planet:

She didn't use coercion but instead, she approached Dyne gently. Extending out her hands, she touched the layer of blood that covered him.
Aerith "The blood bound to you is something that your feeling of guilt is making. The lives you took away returned to the Lifestream long ago. You can't forget about what you've done but, there is no reason why you can't start over. I guarantee it."
Dyne "...."
From the point where Aerith touched, the blood dried up into tissue, detached from Dyne and wore away. Then, Dyne's left arm started to fade away.
…
For the first time, Dyne smiled from the bottom of his heart and quietly, his image faded away. The tip of the gun on his left arm disappeared.
Dyne: "After dying and experiencing all that, I can finally stop turning my back against Barret and Marlene. Let me say my thanks..."
Just before he sunk into the Lifestream, Aerith saw it.
She saw Mako particles make their way towards Dyne and huddle together on him as if they had a will of their own. Dyne's faint, surprised voice could be heard.
Dyne "Eleanor?"

Dyne wasn’t able to be with Eleanor until his “sin” started to fade away from Aerith’s touch. From what Cloud said to Vincent, we know that Cloud feels that his “sin” is letting Aerith die. Cloud tried to turn around to see Aerith in the flower field when she met him on the way to the Forgotten City, but she disappeared, so he wasn't able to see her. During the flower field scene, Aerith told Cloud that she didn’t blame him. Aerith also touched Cloud’s arm, like she touched Dyne’s arm in the story. Then Cloud went back to Midgar and told Tifa that he “felt lighter”. Shortly after that, the Bahamut hand reach scene occurred, and Cloud saw Aerith. From Cloud’s reaction to seeing Aerith's face in the hand reach scene, it makes sense that it was the first time that Cloud could visually see her. Apparently, Cloud had to start letting go of his guilt before he was able to see Aerith in the same way that Dyne had to start letting of his guilt before he could join with Eleanor. This would explain why Cloud wasn’t able to be with Aerith before AC.

Another thing we learn from MotP is this:

Slanting her head to the side, she thought more about it.

"Will I be able to talk to Cloud somewhere? So that I can tell him I'm fine... It's kind of odd saying I'm fine but maybe I can be "clearer" about myself here."

Maybe she could be clear about her affections towards Cloud here. Then maybe they would be seen as family or lovers... During her lifetime in Midgar, she felt many souls of the ones that tried to confess their love. Those that still had those feelings or had those feelings left behind them could strongly retain their consciousness as a "whole".

"But does that mean I'll disappear as soon as I meet Cloud? I wonder if that's what's happening or... Is there still something else I've still to do...?"

Now, if Aerith had “gotten over” Cloud – as you have suggested – and gave her blessing to CloudxTifa, why didn’t Aerith disappear?

This passage also suggests that Cloud hadn’t “gotten over” Aerith, since we see Aerith waiting for Cloud during the bonus ending while Calling plays. Those who had feelings left behind them could strongly retain their consciousness as a “whole”, which suggests that Cloud’s love for Aerith is still very strong.

You see? It's just a matter of interpretation.
You should try to respect other opinions, instead of trying to contradict interpretats with interpretations.

You say this after contradicting my interpretation with your interpretation? Hmmm…

I also want to write up a full reply about Case of Tifa, which will show how I see Cloud's change of behavior as gradual rather than sudden.