Testing on Animals

[bipper]

tHANK YOU udsuna. cLOUD next time, read my post. kthx.

[Cloud No.9]

"Stop testing on animals full stop"

animal testing is required for vaccines. not one vaccine ever has been created without animal testing. and to see it works you need to give the animal a nasty disease. and it's a trial and error system. if the vaccine doesn't work then you try again. many cures are made in the same way.

there is no other way around it.

[Raistlin]

Using your arguments, you cannot say that your pet dog wants, or feels as we do. Just because they have reactions, does not mean they "think" the stimulous is negative eh? Who knows if animals do really think and feel in that case... Apples and oranges man...

Again, this is wrong. A dog can feel pain (has a nervous system), can think (somewhat...not sentient, but capable of making choices) and can cognizantly react. Put two dogs in the same situation, and they will react differently, depending on their own experiences, how they were raised, etc. Put two plants in the same situation, and the only difference in reaction comes from genes.

Again, feeling and cognizantly reacting is a fine line. Killing a fly is nothing, because a fly is more or less about as alive as a piece of grass - it has no concept of being alive. Humans do, as well as certain types of animals.

[bipper]

Using your arguments, you cannot say that your pet dog wants, or feels as we do. Just because they have reactions, does not mean they "think" the stimulous is negative eh? Who knows if animals do really think and feel in that case... Apples and oranges man...

Again, this is wrong. A dog can feel pain (has a nervous system), can think (somewhat...not sentient, but capable of making choices) and can cognizantly react. Put two dogs in the same situation, and they will react differently, depending on their own experiences, how they were raised, etc. Put two plants in the same situation, and the only difference in reaction comes from genes.

Again, feeling and cognizantly reacting is a fine line. Killing a fly is nothing, because a fly is more or less about as alive as a piece of grass - it has no concept of being alive. Humans do, as well as certain types of animals.

K, seems odd to simply call em wrong, but lets work with this. first you say that a dog can feel pain because it has a nervous system. As we have said and implied in previous posts, it depends on your view of pain, and even then, pain is metephorically used.

Plants will also act differently in the same situation depending on what they are used too. If you move a tree from a normally sunny area, to a suddenly very dark area, it will react differently and slower than a tree that is from wisconsin, and knows to shed its leaves when the daylight hours become shorter. What controls this? I am not sure, but I would hazard a guess that they have some sort of process similar to that of our dog. My biology class did an experiment on the stimulants of plants, but that was so long ago. I should do some more reasearch again, it was kinda interesting.

The fact is, we don't know what a dog things when it sees a car comming at it, or what a plant thinks when the lawn mower comes at it. I would agree that plants are simpler, but I would also say that they have life, and if you say that animals feel pain, you must say that plants do too or prove me wrong.

What my whole argument is for, is to find out the answer to a simple question: "Why do animal rights types say that it is wrong to do things to animals because they can feel pain, when plants have many of the same reactions to negetive stimulus as animals do?" To add, many people won't eat animals, but have no issues eating a plant. Life ends either way.

I just find it interesting - sadly lol
Bipper

[udsuna]

Yeah, listen to me and Bipper here. I, at least, have taken biology and botany classes. (I hated them with a passion, but I did have them). I still haven't heard anyone point out why it matters that animals and plants feel pain. I get to sleep perfectly well and comfy, even knowing that I am responsible for the ending of a dozen or so lives in my quest to continue my own metabolism. Not including the millions of incidental or accidental ones involving microbes and small things I step on.

[Rose]

Ok, if you kick a dog, doesn't it yelp? If you step on a cat's tail, doesn't it hiss? Do the same thing to a plant. Does it make any noise. No. Well, of course it can't. It doesn't have a mouth. I have no idea if plants feel the same as more complex animals do, but I'm guessing they don't. Or if they can, we can't hear their pain. What turns me off of meat, is that you can hear the pain of the animal. And it just creeps me out.

[nik0tine]

Planets cannot feel pain because planets do not have nervous systems.

[Brian The Pink Shark]

must you all contradict people's beliefs

i am vegetarian yet you acuse me of being a plant killer

i have no problem with anyone else eating meat so lets knock it off please

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

They also know pleasure, as the know what is good for them. They will grow towards sunlight.
Bipper

I am not getting into this discussion, but I remember learning in Bio class why plants grow towards light *gets out old notes for he knows the names of the hormones* Auxins ^_^. Anyways Auxin is a growth hormone found in planets, yet in sunlight it dies. So what happend is that as the plant is put into sunlight, the sidefacing the sunlight will grow slower than the side of the leaf not facing the sunlight, therefore we get the effect of what appears to be growing towards the light.

[udsuna]

You've obviously never heard of how Compass Plants and Sunflowers work. They reach a maximum heights (about 7-8 feet), and without growing any larger, will point at the sun at all times during the day. Even when it's cloudy. Explain THAT with auxins.

And besides, we can explain our nervous system with chemical reactions and elecrical impulses. Just because it's mechanically logical, doesn't make the reality of it any less profound.

Again, no one's answered yet why we should even care if plants or animals feel pain. We use them as tools, nothing more. Even our pets are tools... or maybe I should say toys.

[Traitorfish]

Again, no one's answered yet why we should even care if plants or animals feel pain. We use them as tools, nothing more. Even our pets are tools... or maybe I should say toys.

That was the same logic they used to have about African slaves. And Jews. Some still do. Be very careful with that kind of thought- you don't know how far it can take you.
Anyway, some humans with mental diabilities are not hugely more self-aware than certain animals. Do we kill them? No, we bloody well don't. You can't just divide speices into 'killable' and 'un-killable'.

[udsuna]

Yes I can. I divide it into the species that can request that I treat them equally, and those that cannot. The first member of any species that is smart enough to demand equal rights, EARNS that right for all members of it's species, without hesitation.

I also extend that protection to dolphins, who save human lives for no reason but to be nice like that. But rodents and livestock and weeds are fair game.

[Raistlin]

Plants will also act differently in the same situation depending on what they are used too. If you move a tree from a normally sunny area, to a suddenly very dark area, it will react differently and slower than a tree that is from wisconsin, and knows to shed its leaves when the daylight hours become shorter. What controls this? I am not sure, but I would hazard a guess that they have some sort of process similar to that of our dog.

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. My rebuttle will be pointless, since you'll just make up more erroneous crap, but I'll do it anyway, if only for amusement value:

No, a plant does not react with a "process similar to a dog." That is absurd. A plant reacts solely by genes. Something happens (stimulus), and then this is how each and every plant with those same genes reacts. There's no choice involved. Put two plants of the same species in the same situation, and they will react exactly the same, no matter prior experiences.

Dogs, on the other hand, have a distinct brain. They can learn. They can make choices. Put two dogs of the same species (even with identical genes) in the same situation, and their reactions can differ depending upon past experiences.

Also, what the hell does "pain is only a metaphorical concept" even mean? Pain is a result of a distinct nervous system, meant to show a danger. It's a very objective biological concept. Dogs can feel pain. Grass can't.

[bipper]

Plants will also act differently in the same situation depending on what they are used too. If you move a tree from a normally sunny area, to a suddenly very dark area, it will react differently and slower than a tree that is from wisconsin, and knows to shed its leaves when the daylight hours become shorter. What controls this? I am not sure, but I would hazard a guess that they have some sort of process similar to that of our dog.

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. My rebuttle will be pointless, since you'll just make up more erroneous crap, but I'll do it anyway, if only for amusement value:

Firstly, don't be so rude; I kinda have some respect left for ya I have attended many biology classes in both high school and college. I can assure you I am not spitting 'facts' out of my ass.

No, a plant does not react with a "process similar to a dog." That is absurd. A plant reacts solely by genes. Something happens (stimulus), and then this is how each and every plant with those same genes reacts. There's no choice involved. Put two plants of the same species in the same situation, and they will react exactly the same, no matter prior experiences.


Dogs, on the other hand, have a distinct brain. They can learn. They can make choices. Put two dogs of the same species (even with identical genes) in the same situation, and their reactions can differ depending upon past experiences.

What I feel that you are saying, is that plants can't learn, and cannot apply lessons from past experience to any new instance of a problem from its past. Well, that is untrue, at least to several theories. I know you wont belive me with out links. So here is some reading material.

1. A bio chemestry look at learning at a plant/cellular level


2. Cleeve Backster goes off the deep end and says that plants have ESP, but a lot of his work is less controversial and great. Read about his bizare thoughts here


3. http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/clearstreets/84/intell.htm

Also, what the hell does "pain is only a metaphorical concept" even mean? Pain is a result of a distinct nervous system, meant to show a danger. It's a very objective biological concept. Dogs can feel pain. Grass can't.

It means just as it implies. If you know what a metephor is (And I know you do) you should be able to figure that what I am saying, is look outside your raw definition of pain being a sensation produced by the nervous system. Of course to personify this trait to a plant, would be another way to state this, but I just don't feel that saying 'Pretend a plant can feel pain' would be a strong phrase to use in this debate.


Bipper

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

You've obviously never heard of how Compass Plants and Sunflowers work. They reach a maximum heights (about 7-8 feet), and without growing any larger, will point at the sun at all times during the day. Even when it's cloudy. Explain THAT with auxins.

No need to get defensive, all I was saying is what I was told in a High School Biology class. Anyways, with a quick research the same method is responsible for Sunflowers facing the sun.

This is an atricle on phototropism, or how plants react to light

Phototropism

Here is what my Encarta has to say

Sunflower, common name for annual and perennial herbs of a genus of the family of composite flowers. The genus, which contains about 67 species, is thought to be native to South America originally, although sunflowers are now distributed almost worldwide. Some of the tall-growing forms may attain a height of 3 m (12 ft). The large, solitary blossom, sometimes as large as a meter in diameter, is composed of yellow ray flowers and a central disk of either yellow, brown, or purple flowers, depending on the species. The daily orientation of the flower to the sun is a direct result of differential growth of the stem. A plant-growth regulator, or auxin, accumulates on the shaded side of a plant when conditions of unequal light prevail. Because of this accumulation, the darker side grows faster than the sunlit side. Thus, the stem bends toward the sun.

Anyways I was just dropping a point in, and do not want to get involve into this discussion. (Not involved deeply anyways).