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Thread: Judge: Abu Gharib images and videos need to be released

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    pirate heartbreaker The Man's Avatar
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    Default Federal judge: Abu Gharib images and videos need to be released

    http://www.editorandpublisher.com/ea..._id=1001218842

    NEW YORK A federal judge ruled today that graphic pictures of detainee abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government claims that they could damage America's image. Last year a Republican senator conceded that they contained scenes of "rape and murder" and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said they included acts that were "blatantly sadistic."

    U.S. District Judge Alvin K. Hellerstein ordered the release of certain pictures in a 50-page decision that said terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan have proven they "do not need pretexts for their barbarism."


    The ACLU has sought the release of 87 photographs and four videotapes taken at the prison as part of an October 2003 lawsuit demanding information on the treatment of detainees in U.S. custody and the transfer of prisoners to countries known to use torture.

    The judge said: "Our nation does not surrender to blackmail, and fear of blackmail is not a legally sufficient argument to prevent us from performing a statutory command. Indeed, the freedoms that we champion are as important to our success in Iraq and Afghanistan as the guns and missiles with which our troops are armed."

    What is shown on the 87 photographs and four videos from Abu Ghraib prison that the Pentagon has blocked from release? One clue: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told Congress last year, after viewing a large cache of unreleased images, "I mean, I looked at them last night, and they're hard to believe." They show acts "that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane," he added.

    A Republican Senator suggested the same day they contained scenes of "rape and murder." Rumsfeld then commented, "If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse."

    The photos were among thousands turned over by the key "whistleblower" in the scandal, Specialist Joseph M. Darby. Just a few that were released to the press sparked the Abu Ghraib abuse scandal last year, and the video images are said to be even more shocking.

    One Pentagon lawyer has argued that they should not be released because they would only add to the humiliation of the prisoners. But the ACLU has said the faces of the victims can easily be "redacted."

    To get a sense of what may be shown in these images, one has to go back to press reports from when the Abu Ghraib abuse scandal was still front page news.

    This is how CNN reported it on May 8, 2004, in a typical account that day:

    "U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld revealed Friday that videos and 'a lot more pictures' exist of the abuse of Iraqis held at Abu Ghraib prison.

    "'If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse,' Rumsfeld told the Senate Armed Services Committee. 'I mean, I looked at them last night, and they're hard to believe.'

    "The embattled defense secretary fielded sharp and skeptical questions from lawmakers as he testified about the growing prisoner abuse scandal. A military report about that abuse describes detainees being threatened, sodomized with a chemical light and forced into sexually humiliating poses.

    "Charges have been brought against seven service members, and investigations into events at the prison continue.

    "Military investigators have looked into -- or are continuing to investigate -- 35 cases of alleged abuse or deaths of prisoners in detention facilities in the Central Command theater, according to Army Secretary Les Brownlee. Two of those cases were deemed homicides, he said.

    "'The American public needs to understand we're talking about rape and murder here. We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience,' Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina told reporters after Rumsfeld testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee. 'We're talking about rape and murder -- and some very serious charges.'

    "A report by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba on the abuse at the prison outside Baghdad says videotapes and photographs show naked detainees, and that groups of men were forced to masturbate while being photographed and videotaped. Taguba also found evidence of a 'male MP guard having sex with a female detainee.'

    "Rumsfeld told Congress the unrevealed photos and videos contain acts 'that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman.'"

    The military later screened some of the images for lawmakers, who said they showed, among other things, attack dogs snarling at cowed prisoners, Iraqi women forced to expose their breasts, and naked prisoners forced to have sex with each other.

    In the same period, reporter Seymour Hersh, who helped uncover the scandal, said in a speech before an ACLU convention: "Some of the worse that happened that you don't know about, ok? Videos, there are women there. Some of you may have read they were passing letters, communications out to their men ... . The women were passing messages saying 'Please come and kill me, because of what's happened.'

    "Basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys/children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. The worst about all of them is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror it's going to come out."
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    Unpostmodernizeable Shadow Nexus's Avatar
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    Errm...what happened with the whole Geneva Convention? Isn't there an article against this? What need is there to release those images to the public? We all know what went on inside the prision, it has been described in the article, and I don't see the necessity of this. How would the prisioners feel? Knowing images of you getting raped have been released worlwide to show in the front pages of sensationalistic press.

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    Meh, the Geneva Convention can impale itself. The U.S. is the only country that even TRIES to follow that outdated POS. These people are terrorists and don't have the rights of American citizens.

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    These people are terrorists and don't have the rights of American citizens.
    Oh god... They haven't even been tried. NONE of these people are convicted terrorists, and therefore you shouldn't be calling them terrorists. You are of the most despicable mindsets of all Americans.

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    pirate heartbreaker The Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ?????
    Meh, the Geneva Convention can impale itself. The U.S. is the only country that even TRIES to follow that outdated POS.
    Um, what? Pretty much all of western Europe, at least, abides by it. As for the rest of your post, I agree with nik0tine.

    I'm of two minds about this. On one hand it probably will raise anti-American sentiment. (Incidentally, this issue points to a clear contradiction in the radical right's thinking. They have been arguing this entire time that our actions in Iraq will not contribute to terrorism, but they oppose the release of these images on the grounds that it will incite terrorism). On the other hand, a nation that claims to be the bastion of freedom and moral responsibility, and yet allows images like this from its military to go unpublished, is in reality a bastion of hypocrisy. In any case, the judge was just interpreting the law, and the law clearly says that pictures like this need to be published.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Nexus
    Errm...what happened with the whole Geneva Convention? Isn't there an article against this? What need is there to release those images to the public? We all know what went on inside the prision, it has been described in the article, and I don't see the necessity of this. How would the prisioners feel? Knowing images of you getting raped have been released worlwide to show in the front pages of sensationalistic press.
    Proof. Without it, a lot of people will find it difficult to believe exactly what's going on therein. And yes, it'll be sensationalist, which means something may actually be done. Most people only act when they're riled up, and people only get riled up with difficulty and for short times.

    Anyways, trial and execution sounds like the order of the day for a certain prison's staff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man
    Pretty much all of western Europe, at least, abides by it.
    You know what I mean. Terrorists and other enemies don't follow the Geneva Convention's rules, so why should we? And don't spout some stuff about "because we'd be sinking to their level if we didn't." That's bull. You know it, I know it, and every reasoning being in the universe knows it. Every organism in the universe does everything, and I mean everything, in their own self-interest; we have no "higher calling." We're merely trying to stamp out a threat to our way of life. This we have done, with a good deal of success.

    My mindset is that as long as I can live my life unimpeded, I really don't care one whit what happens to those people or what our military does to achieve that end. Their lives don't affect me and never will. Torture them, rape them, do weird-ass psychic experiments on them, make them watch endless episodes of Friends for all I care. Just get them out of society and off of my news.

    Incidentally, I'm all for the Iraq war, both to get rid of Saddam's potential threat and for the oil profits. I'm a firm supporter of imperialism and big business.

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    pirate heartbreaker The Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ?????
    Quote Originally Posted by The Man
    Pretty much all of western Europe, at least, abides by it.
    You know what I mean. Terrorists and other enemies don't follow the Geneva Convention's rules, so why should we? And don't spout some stuff about "because we'd be sinking to their level if we didn't." That's bull. You know it, I know it, and every reasoning being in the universe knows it. Every organism in the universe does everything, and I mean everything, in their own self-interest; we have no "higher calling." We're merely trying to stamp out a threat to our way of life. This we have done, with a good deal of success.
    wow, you really do watch too much Fox News.

    The whole point that we don't follow the Geneva Conventions is exactly why the terrorists are able to recruit so many people to their cause. We claim to be a bastion of freedom and responsibility, yet we resort to the exact same tactics they use, wiping our ass on the Constitution we purport to value so much in the process. Ever hear of something called the Fourth Amendment? Yeah, holding people without trial is completely in violation of that. End of story.

    My mindset is that as long as I can live my life unimpeded, I really don't care one whit what happens to those people or what our military does to achieve that end. Their lives don't affect me and never will. Torture them, rape them, do weird-ass psychic experiments on them, make them watch endless episodes of Friends for all I care. Just get them out of society and off of my news.
    First they came for the Jews
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    Then they came for the Communists
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    because I was not a Communist.
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    and I did not speak out
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    Then they came for me
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    No, terrorists are not recruited because of some innate hatred for our practices. They are recruited because of radical Islam. They're apparently too stupid to realize that it isn't exactly sensible to be merciful in a war, or to be anything other than as capitalist as possible. Then again, they're stupid enough to believe in fundamentalist Islam, so there you are.

    And actually, I watch CNN most of the time. They're the most convenient place to get news.

    Niemoller was either too stupid or unable to get his ass out of the country. Not my problem.

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    pirate heartbreaker The Man's Avatar
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    Above, you took the standpoint that we shouldn't release the pictures because it will cause them to take up arms against us. Now I understand you to be saying that they aren't taking up arms against us because of anything we've done. Which is it? You can't have it both ways. never mind, I misread the thread.

    However, it still stand that if we weren't torturing their people in our prisons, they wouldn't be able to get so many recruits. They all already know, or suspect, that this sort of stuff is happening in our prisons anyway. Releasing the images would tell them nothing they didn't already suspect, but it will get the message out to the American people that what we're doing in our prisons is absolutely no better than anything they're doing. That might not affect you any, but it would certainly affect the vast majority of the American public.

    And it's because of people with your attitude that regimes like Nazi Germany were allowed to come to power. Evidently, my quote didn't get that through to you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man
    Above, you took the standpoint that we shouldn't release the pictures because it will cause them to take up arms against us. Now I understand you to be saying that they aren't taking up arms against us because of anything we've done. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

    And it's because of people like you that regimes like Nazi Germany were allowed to come to power. Evidently, my quote didn't get that through to you.
    No, you misunderstood my point earlier. My point earlier was not that the pictures shouldn't be released. It's that I don't care one way or the other, because it doesn't really impact any of us. And in case you hadn't noticed, they've ALREADY taken up arms against us and sworn in the name of their god to bring us crashing down. I don't really think they can get that much more pissed off than they already are.

    Also, defaulting on a Hitler argument = good way to lose a debate.

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    pirate heartbreaker The Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ?????
    I don't care one way or the other, because it doesn't really impact any of us. And in case you hadn't noticed, they've ALREADY taken up arms against us and sworn in the name of their god to bring us crashing down. I don't really think they can get that much more pissed off than they already are.
    Your argument is like saying "Well a few people in Europe don't like America right now, so there's no way we can piss off the European countries more." It doesn't make any logical sense. Considering that only a small portion of people in Islamic nations are terrorists right now, but they're recruiting more every day as a direct result of things that are happening in our prisons, I think it can get a lot worse. Every day this war drags on brings additional anti-American sentiment and convinces additional people to take up arms against us, and matters like a prison camp where a supposed bastion of democracy uses twelfth-century torture tactics on people who haven't even received trials doesn't help our credibility any.

    Also, defaulting on a Hitler argument = good way to lose a debate.
    My point stands.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man
    Quote Originally Posted by ?????
    I don't care one way or the other, because it doesn't really impact any of us. And in case you hadn't noticed, they've ALREADY taken up arms against us and sworn in the name of their god to bring us crashing down. I don't really think they can get that much more pissed off than they already are.
    Your argument is like saying "Well a few people in Europe don't like America right now, so there's no way we can piss off the European countries more." It doesn't make any logical sense. Considering that only a small portion of people in Islamic nations are terrorists right now, but they're recruiting more every day as a direct result of things that are happening in our prisons, I think it can get a lot worse. Every day this war drags on brings additional anti-American sentiment and convinces additional people to take up arms against us.

    Also, defaulting on a Hitler argument = good way to lose a debate.
    My point stands.
    I'm talking about the terrorists in the Middle East, not some random pot-smoking hippie bitches in Eastern Europe. Besides, we have more than enough power to ruthlessly crush any other country or even combination of countries at the present time. Basically, our good graces are the only reason America isn't a global empire. I wish it was, namely because I hold absolutely no regard for human life in general. My self-interest is the only reason a lot of the bastards I know aren't dead right now; my desire to stay out of prison is more powerful than my desire to put them in a casket.

    And your point doesn't stand. If it did, I would have either contested it or conceded. Answering with a completely irrelevant quote and nothing else is so laughable that I don't feel it deserves a serious response.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ?????
    I'm talking about the terrorists in the Middle East, not some random pot-smoking hippie bitches in Eastern Europe.
    Ah. I see. They follow a funny religion that no one in our country really understands, so therefore the rules of logic and political thought don't apply to them.

    Besides, we have more than enough power to ruthlessly crush any other country or even combination of countries at the present time. Basically, our good graces are the only reason America isn't a global empire.
    Um. You might want to take a look at how the Iraq war has been going lately before you go bandying about such claims. Also, wasn't the whole point of your argument that these evil terrorists posed such a deadly threat to us that we needed to invade their lands and lock them up without a trial? That doesn't sound like the behaviour of a nation that's fully secure with its place in the world.

    And your point doesn't stand. If it did, I would have either contested it or conceded. Answering with a completely irrelevant quote and nothing else is so laughable that I don't feel it deserves a serious response.
    I fail to see how the quote I posted is irrelevant. You said that taking a few people's rights away doesn't matter, I posted a quote that relates to the slippery slope of a government that consistently appropriates more power for itself. Not irrelevant at all.
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    It's something of a fallacy to say that no one in our country understands Islam. I understand Islam quite well. It is a religion rooted in conquest, brainwashing, and violence, just like Christianity, Judaism, and most other major religions save perhaps for Buddhism, and even that is questionable. The rules of logic dictate that, because their interests conflict with ours and they have taken up arms against us, the only rational response would be to wipe them out of existence, because they have demonstrated the desire to do the same thing to us.

    The Iraq war has actually been going rather well, from a purely numerical standpoint. We've had about 2,000 of our men die, of which approximately 900 have lost their lives in combat. Quite frankly, any other country at any time in history would do anything for those numbers. I don't particularly care what happens to Iraqi civilians; I'm solely concerned about our personnel. Even citing Vietnam won't exactly help one's case; in Vietnam, we had an 18 to 1 kill ratio in favor of us. We lost about 58,000 men there. In Iraq, we have also maintained a kill ratio that is decisively in our favor. Extrapolating our current number of military deaths per year to the length of the Vietnam War, we will have lost under 20,000 men if the Iraq war does last that long.

    I also think it's ironic that you used the phrase "slippery slope" in defense of your Niemoller point, considering that's the very logical fallacy you committed there.

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