a religious dictatorship

[Teek]

You say that there is no such thing as a communist regime (heh), but just to question: do you compare capitalism to fascism? I mean, I've read that a lot, and as an advocate of lassiez-faire capitalism, which necessarily requires a small, focused government that does not infringe on the rights of the people, it makes me laugh. Capitalism's pure opposite would be fascism. Communism is much more similar to fascism, because it denies individual liberty.

I've read The Communist Manifesto, and Marx makes some serious errors in his appraisal of the way society is run. What's sad is that there is a case to be said - most societies in the world at that time were in need of change, because they practiced capitalism with a class system based on inheritence (which is wrong, and destroys the virtues of capitalism). However, rather than explaining the importance of the workers as well, he goes on to denounce the "burgeoise", which is basically a hard-working individual who works for his own profit by trading his highest abilities with others. Yeah, really evil, Marx. Since the burgeoise didn't have to answer to the proletarian, he rallied the people to destroy ability for the sake of need. In other words, take over a factory, becuase somehow, a group of uneducated people know how to operate a factory without their managers. All right.

He created a morality that made it evil to be rich. Whereas you are paid for your virture in the lassiez-faire capitalist society, and you were rewarded for the amount you offered the world, communism states that to own money is an evil notion, and that the better you are the more reason you should sacrifice it. Then, he made the honest working man into a greedy moocher who sought to destroy achievement. Basically, he smurfed up the concept of both the rich and the poor and made them both villians.

There is a girl here, who was alive during the Soviet Union. She told me about her great-grandmother. In order to make enough to support her children, she set up a private enterprise, under the table, offering her services to the world in exchange for her children's lives. She was sent to Siberia, and when she came back, she was never the same. Her great-granddaughter, my friend, told me sadly, "She just wanted to be able to live. But it was said that those who wanted to really live wanted to do so at the expense of others." The idea was chilling.

But communism is motivated for a love of man, after all.

[?????]

And exactlly how does human nature goes against communism?

It has been proven over and over and over again that humans act primarily in their own selfish interests by the virtue of their being sentient. No matter how much communist brainwashing you give someone, you're never going to fully destroy this instinct; it is as natural as gravity or the changing of the seasons.

[Madame Adequate]

Like under Capitailism? They have to look for work and whatever they find they have to settle for it along with the low pay that is included to it. Under communism you can choose what you want to do as long as you can do it. Even if they need more of something else.

Thank you! You've just entirely proven my point - people don't choose to clean sewers, they are forcde into it through necessity. Luckily, while they're cleaning sewers they can also go to nightschool or save up for a computer/typewriter and start writing so they at least have a chance of bettering themselves. In Communism, the poor bastards who get the end of the stick are, if you'll pardon the pun, stuck.

[Raistlin]

Little late on this one:

And how is that Perverted? Communism is worker self goverment. You can do what you want as long as you can do it.

Actually, that's capitalism. Communism is: "do what's best for the collective society, and you'll get what we feel like you need."

Ah, yes, the downfall of many an ideal.

Human nature is a good thing. I consider the individual aspect of human nature to be a very good thing.

It has been proven over and over and over again that humans act primarily in their own selfish interests by the virtue of their being sentient. No matter how much communist brainwashing you give someone, you're never going to fully destroy this instinct; it is as natural as gravity or the changing of the seasons.

A truth!

Silly pinkos. Is it "pinkos" or "pinkoes?" Pinkoes looks silly, so I'll go with pinkos.

[FFGuevara]

You say that there is no such thing as a communist regime (heh),

There hasnt, no country has ever been really communist. Like i said you must go through Socialism before establishing communism.

but just to question: do you compare capitalism to fascism?

Fascism is Racial supremacy and total control.
Capitailism is Privatizing, profiting and control.

I mean, I've read that a lot, and as an advocate of lassiez-faire capitalism, which necessarily requires a small, focused government that does not infringe on the rights of the people, it makes me laugh. Capitalism's pure opposite would be fascism. Communism is much more similar to fascism, because it denies individual liberty.

Capitalism involves explotiation , Profiting and Religion. And so does Fascism but in a much more Extreme scale. Do you even know what Fascism is? Dont forget Blacks were slaves under capitalism for profit.
The Native Americans were nearly extincted for their land. All of that while under Capitailism to recieve the most profit.

I've read The Communist Manifesto,and Marx makes some serious errors in his appraisal of the way society is run. What's sad is that there is a case to be said - most societies in the world at that time were in need of change, because they practiced capitalism with a class system based on inheritence (which is wrong, and destroys the virtues of capitalism).

Thats still how everything is runned in the majority of the world. Go to South east Asia and Africa and see for yourself. Workers are still oppressed, kids make your shoes for 5 cents an hour, 10 hours a day, under gruesome conditions. The only deference is the machines now are safer then the one's at that time.

However, rather than explaining the importance of the workers as well, he goes on to denounce the "burgeoise", which is basically a hard-working individual who works for his own profit by trading his highest abilities with others. Yeah, really evil, Marx. Since the burgeoise didn't have to answer to the proletarian, he rallied the people to destroy ability for the sake of need. In other words, take over a factory, becuase somehow, a group of uneducated people know how to operate a factory without their managers. All right.

Managers are elected under communism by those workers. But will still work like everyone else.

He created a morality that made it evil to be rich.
Whereas you are paid for your virture in the lassiez-faire capitalist society,and you were rewarded for the amount you offered the world,

While some guy in a mansion is enjoying all the luxuries he recieved from his dad's company. Everyone circling around him live's in slum's under horrible condition's. Even after working hard at their job's. (Is this the reward you were talking about?).

communism states

................ Are you even reading my posts? Communism is a stateless society. There is no Communist states.

that to own money is an evil notion, and that the better you are the more reason you should sacrifice it. Then, he made the honest working man into a greedy moocher who sought to destroy achievement.

Achievement for who? The people on top who are recieving all the profits. Their the ones who are achieving. When has marx ever said thats its evil to have your own money? Under communism you'll recieve payment's which is your own money, untill you spend it.

There is a girl here, who was alive during the Soviet Union. She told me about her great-grandmother. In order to make enough to support her children, she set up a private enterprise, under the table, offering her services to the world in exchange for her children's lives. She was sent to Siberia, and when she came back, she was never the same. Her great-granddaughter, my friend, told me sadly, "She just wanted to be able to live. But it was said that those who wanted to really live wanted to do so at the expense of others." The idea was chilling.

But communism is motivated for a love of man, after all.

Again the Soviet Union was NEVER communist. Real Marxism has never been attempted. It was at best Socialist in the begining untill Lenin passed away before installing democracy. What your friends great-grandmother went through was Stalinism.

[FFGuevara]

Little late on this one:
Actually, that's capitalism. Communism is: "do what's best for the collective society, and you'll get what we feel like you need."

Actually its the other way around. Just how are the workers in control right now? Since their the one's at the bottom. Capitailism isnt wonderfull when your the one exploited. Live in a Third world country and see if you'll think like that.

It has been proven over and over and over again that humans act primarily in their own selfish interests by the virtue of their being sentient. No matter how much communist brainwashing you give someone, you're never going to fully destroy this instinct; it is as natural as gravity or the changing of the seasons.
A truth! Silly pinkos. Is it "pinkos" or "pinkoes?" Pinkoes looks silly, so I'll go with pinkos.

Seems like the "brainwash" has work for you guys.

[Raistlin]

Actually its the other way around. Just how are the workers in control right now?

Why should the workers be in control? They're the ones who lack the knowledge and/or the motivation to earn more than minimum wage.

Anyway, in a free society, businesses aren't in control either. A business can only survive as long as people are willing to work for it and other people are willing to buy its product.
Also, one thing people like to ignore: a business is a piece of property, owned by, obviously, the owner. The workers didn't have the ability or the resources to start that business, so they work for someone who has. An individual typical worker is expendable; the owner and/or manager (when they're different people, the owner has the resources and the manager has the ability).

[Madame Adequate]

Again the Soviet Union was NEVER communist. Real Marxism has never been attempted. It was at best Socialist in the begining untill Lenin passed away before installing democracy. What your friends great-grandmother went through was Stalinism.

Two things:

This has been the result of all attempts at communist states, though is most notable in Stalinism and Maoism.

Why are Capitalist systems which aren't pure Capitalism judged on their real and current nature, whilst Communism may only ever be judged according to the theoretical ideal? Essentially; the problems with Cuba and the Soviet Union are to be swept under the rug because a perfect Communist system was not in place in either, yet the problems of Japan and America are aired for all to see, even though a perfect Capitalist system is not in place in either?

[FFGuevara]

Actually its the other way around. Just how are the workers in control right now?

Why should the workers be in control? They're the ones who lack the knowledge and/or the motivation to earn more than minimum wage.

Because their the majoirty, and the most oppressed. This sorta reminds me of how people believed peasant's were "barbaric" and shouldent go out on their own and start something when Capitalism first showed up. To say a workers isnt educated enough to rule is like saying a peasant is too barbaric to have the same opportunity as a nobel.(Which is already a low chance the buisness will succeed anyway)

Anyway, in a free society, businesses aren't in control either.

But their a big factor in this "free" society of your's. You work for them, and you buy their stuff, major corporation's if they want can overthrow the goverment installing a corrupted version of Capitailism (FFVII everyone)

A business can only survive as long as people are willing to work for it and other people are willing to buy its product.

I already know that. What do you think we mean by revolution? It's when the Workers stop working and unite against the Capitalist's.

Also, one thing people like to ignore: a business is a piece of property, owned by, obviously, the owner. The workers didn't have the ability or the resources to start that business, so they work for someone who has. An individual typical worker is expendable; the owner and/or manager (when they're different people, the owner has the resources and the manager has the ability).

And your point is?

[FFGuevara]

Again the Soviet Union was NEVER communist. Real Marxism has never been attempted. It was at best Socialist in the begining untill Lenin passed away before installing democracy. What your friends great-grandmother went through was Stalinism.

Two things:

This has been the result of all attempts at communist states, though is most notable in Stalinism and Maoism.

Why are Capitalist systems which aren't pure Capitalism judged on their real and current nature, whilst Communism may only ever be judged according to the theoretical ideal? Essentially; the problems with Cuba and the Soviet Union are to be swept under the rug because a perfect Communist system was not in place in either, yet the problems of Japan and America are aired for all to see, even though a perfect Capitalist system is not in place in either?

But you must understand the conditions those countries went through. And why it ended up horriblly.

[Madame Adequate]

Again the Soviet Union was NEVER communist. Real Marxism has never been attempted. It was at best Socialist in the begining untill Lenin passed away before installing democracy. What your friends great-grandmother went through was Stalinism.

Two things:

This has been the result of all attempts at communist states, though is most notable in Stalinism and Maoism.

Why are Capitalist systems which aren't pure Capitalism judged on their real and current nature, whilst Communism may only ever be judged according to the theoretical ideal? Essentially; the problems with Cuba and the Soviet Union are to be swept under the rug because a perfect Communist system was not in place in either, yet the problems of Japan and America are aired for all to see, even though a perfect Capitalist system is not in place in either?

But you must understand the conditions those countries went through. And why it ended up horriblly.

Because Communism is a flawed idea and Socialism is its flawed precursor?

Additionally; you must understand the conditions of the West, and what has gone right and wrong there.

[?????]

Why should the workers be in control? They're the ones who lack the knowledge and/or the motivation to earn more than minimum wage.

Quoted for truth.

[FFGuevara]

Because Communism is a flawed idea and Socialism is its flawed precursor?

Additionally; you must understand the conditions of the West, and what has gone right and wrong there.

What about other countries? Like in Africa , South East Asia etc. The conditions in those countries are horrible while under Capitailism, have you ever been or even seen how it is in those country outside the US? (Except for the UK ,Canada and West europe.) So technically speaking Capitalism has only work in the US, UK, France, Canada, Italy, Japan, Germany and Australia. Thats it, all the other's ether failed or got robbed by the countries that did succed

[War Angel]

Capitalism isn't good. It has its flaws, and many of them. But Communism is far worse, in my opinion, as is Fascism, Nazism and any other oppresive regime-style.

Mild Socialism can be good, as can a mild form of Capitalism. Going to extremes (i.e, the regimes described above) never does any good, nor does it last for very long. Communism sounds like a very, very bad idea to me. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a Communist country. I like being free too much.

[Cloud No.9]

capatlism relies on explotation. that is a huge flaw.