Cloud's strength and Jenova cells (unmarked FFVII and AC spoilers)

[Sefie1999AD]

In FFVII, it's told that Cloud was a normal person who tried to make it to SOLDIER but he wasn't strong enough. However, after Sephiroth burned Nibelheim, Cloud attacked him, and even though he was just a normal person, he managed to defeat and "kill" Sephiroth. Hojo found Cloud and Zack, both wounded, and took them to Shinra basement to experiment with them. Cloud got infected by Jenova cells, which make everyone in SOLDIER so powerful.

Those Jenova cells got Cloud under Jenova/Sephiroth's mind control several times when the Reunion was starting, and after a lot of events, Cloud and Tifa ended up in the Lifestream. There Cloud discovered his own identity. He and others eventually fought and defeated Jenova*Synthesis and Sephiroth for good, and during FFVII's ending FMV, you see the green Lifestream and red Jenova energy moving around Cloud, and soon only the green energy exists. I'm not sure whether this indicates that Cloud got rid of Jenova cells there or not, but we'll move on to AC.

In AC, Cloud has Geostigma. This is what Kadaj says:
KADAJ: "In the Lifestream... All because Mother's cells are working hard... And yet we... We don't even know where Mother is..."
KADAJ: "I've received a special power from Mother. A power to fight against this planet... which hurts the people living on it. Actually, you all have this power."

Vincent has a different view on the matter:
VINCENT: "The Geostigma... It seems that the cause is an overloading of the system to remove parasites in the body. There's a flow through the body like the Lifestream... It fights against the invasion of harmful substances."
CLOUD: "Harmful substances..."
VINCENT: "The Sephiroth element... Jenova's cells... Call it what you want."

So no matter which explanation is true, Geostigma still has something to do with Jenova cells. Now here's a few questions. Why does Cloud has Geostigma? Is it because of those Jenova cells Hojo put on him in Nibelheim five years before FFVII's events, or was he cleaned of Jenova at the end of FFVII and got Geostigma some other way? How about the children of Midgar, how did they get Geostigma and Jenova cells? I don't buy Kadaj's story about Jenova infiltrating the Lifestream and that way children who are born have Geostigma, since it seems the Planet's power destroys Jenova elements very effectively (notice what the rain sent by Aeris does to Geostigma and the three SHM).

The children weren't Sephiroth clones either, so I don't think they were infected by Hojo or other Shinra scientists. I can only come with the explanation that since Jenova is a virus (it was said in FFVII), the children somehow caught the virus, sorta like you can catch a flu even if nobody puts your body full of virulent cells. And what's up with Sephiroth clones in black capes turning fully into Jenova's control before and during the Reunion in FFVII, but the children are quite resistant to Jenova's control? For example, Denzel snapped out of it when he and Tifa were hurt in Bahamut's blast.

When Cloud was finally healed of Geostigma, he went to fight Kadaj. Now, being healed of Geostigma and the Jenova presence means he no longer has Jenova cells, so doesn't that mean he's just a regular person, so he doesn't have the same strength of a SOLDIER within him anymore? However, Cloud didn't seem any weaker after that. Instead, he seemed a lot stronger. He defeated Kadaj without too much trouble, and he seemed even stronger when fighting Sephiroth. Where does Cloud get that strength if he doesn't have Jenova's cells anymore? By leveling up and training, by keeping his friends inside his heart, what? If it's those things, then shouldn't the other party members also be capable of nearly similar things or even better?

So can someone explain a bit about what makes Cloud so powerful and what Geostigma really is about? And please, try to keep the theories and answers reasonable and within FFVII's world, so no BS things like Gaia theory, crystallized spirit energy, Jewish trees, spheres, pyreflies et cetera.

[Sephiroth_Lionhear88]

cloud is just really really really really strong i guess
and don't forget it's a movie everythings possible in a movie

[Quoter]

because geostigma is the way for the planet to try to destroy the jenova cells because it views them as threatening

[-N-]

Jenova was destroyed and dissipated into the Lifestream at the end of FFVII, and the cells were distributed amongst the newborns. 2 years seems like a short time though, but that's what I made of it.

Cloud goes pretty nuts in AC, but we can presume the other characters would have done just the same. They just got cameos while Cloud was the central character, so you think he's stronger.

All things considered, AC is nothing more than a fan service, so I wouldn't take the storyline too seriously. I definitely didn't pay attention at all to the story, and just caught minor details thrown in for FFVII freaks and watched the ridiculously animé-like fight sequences.

[KoShiatar]

I don't think Jenova cells have been completely destroyed nor removed from Cloud's body. Nobody states that clearly and after the final battle I had this very strong "We'll meet again someday" feeling.

[Squall of SeeD]

JENOVA Cells infected the children (and adults too; remember, Rufus has Geostigma, as well) because the Lifestream carried the Cells to the populace of Midgar when it swarmed up to the surface.

If you read "On the Way to a Smile," the FFVII novella written by Kazushige Nojima, detailing the two years between VII and AC, you'll find that Denzel describes the day after Meteor was thwarted, with people that the Lifestream's tendrils had gone through excreting black pus through their pores (the result of the white blood cells in their bodies attempting to absorb the JENOVA Cells and forcibly expunge them) and with him outright stating that JENOVA's will (Sephiroth's will) within the Lifestream at that time is what spread the Cells.

The Lifestream acted as an unintentional catalyst in carrying JENOVA's Cells to the populace of Midgar.


As for Cloud's JENOVA Cells, they weren't removed at the end of VII, but were removed in this film. Note that the Holy Rain neutralizes JENOVA's Cells (as seen when Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz's entire bodies dissipate), thus meaning that it neutralized all the JENOVA Cells in the people that it touched.

When Cloud was finally healed of Geostigma, he went to fight Kadaj. Now, being healed of Geostigma and the Jenova presence means he no longer has Jenova cells, so doesn't that mean he's just a regular person, so he doesn't have the same strength of a SOLDIER within him anymore? However, Cloud didn't seem any weaker after that. Instead, he seemed a lot stronger. He defeated Kadaj without too much trouble, and he seemed even stronger when fighting Sephiroth. Where does Cloud get that strength if he doesn't have Jenova's cells anymore? By leveling up and training, by keeping his friends inside his heart, what? If it's those things, then shouldn't the other party members also be capable of nearly similar things or even better?

First of all, he still had Mako in him (look at his eyes during the close-up when Sephiroth returns), so he'd still be uber. Second, he was uber even before he was infused with Mako or injected with JENOVA's Cells. Watch Last Order. He pulled himself down the length of Sephiroth's blade and threw Sephiroth into a wall by gripping the blade; further, the wall crumpled like paper when Sephiroth hit it. Sephiroth was dumb-founded that Cloud could do this and said "What the hell are you?!"

So, yeah, Cloud was always really powerful. In any event, anyone is capable of surge in strength from the Spirit Energy. Limit Breaks/Trances are something anyone can undergo, and in Cloud's case, his Spirit Energy is just really strong.

[Sefie1999AD]

First of all, he still had Mako in him (look at his eyes during the close-up when Sephiroth returns), so he'd still be uber. Second, he was uber even before he was infused with Mako or injected with JENOVA's Cells. Watch Last Order. He pulled himself down the length of Sephiroth's blade and threw Sephiroth into a wall by gripping the blade; further, the wall crumpled like paper when Sephiroth hit it. Sephiroth was dumb-founded that Cloud could do this and said "What the hell are you?!"

The thing is, it's not told anywhere in FFVII when he was showered with Mako. Sure, he had the glow in his eyes, but Jenova cells could have caused that as well. Mako is given to those joining the SOLDIER, and Cloud never made it into the SOLDIER. When he killed Sephiroth in Nibelheim's Mako Reactor, I think it'd be safe to say he had neither Mako nor Jenova cells at that point. So it must have been Hojo who gave him Mako, which is quite weird when he just wanted to experiment with Jenova cells by putting them on Nibelheim's survivors.

So, yeah, Cloud was always really powerful. In any event, anyone is capable of surge in strength from the Spirit Energy. Limit Breaks/Trances are something anyone can undergo, and in Cloud's case, his Spirit Energy is just really strong.

No. The only people who have seemingly been able to reach a Limit Break are the nine party members and the kid in the inn near Avalanche's hideout. As for Trance and Spirit Energy giving you the power to reach it...

And please, try to keep the theories and answers reasonable and within FFVII's world, so no BS things like Gaia theory, crystallized spirit energy, Jewish trees, spheres, pyreflies et cetera.

[Squall of SeeD]

The thing is, it's not told anywhere in FFVII when he was showered with Mako. Sure, he had the glow in his eyes, but Jenova cells could have caused that as well. Mako is given to those joining the SOLDIER, and Cloud never made it into the SOLDIER. When he killed Sephiroth in Nibelheim's Mako Reactor, I think it'd be safe to say he had neither Mako nor Jenova cells at that point. So it must have been Hojo who gave him Mako, which is quite weird when he just wanted to experiment with Jenova cells by putting them on Nibelheim's survivors.

Uh... it's outright shown and stated in the game that Hojo infused him with Mako. We see him and Zack floating in tubes full of Mako. We read reports in the basement of the mansion that state he was injected with JENOVA and infused with Mako. Go back to the mansion's basement and watch the flashback, then read the books.

No. The only people who have seemingly been able to reach a Limit Break are the nine party members and the kid in the inn near Avalanche's hideout.

You just defeated your own argument by mentioning the kid near AVALANCHE's hideout. I somehow doubt that there was anything "special" about him. Or Cid for that matter. Or Yuffie. Or Barret. They're all just normal people thrust into an extraordinary situation.

As for Trance and Spirit Energy giving you the power to reach it...

And please, try to keep the theories and answers reasonable and within FFVII's world, so no BS things like Gaia theory, crystallized spirit energy, Jewish trees, spheres, pyreflies et cetera.

I don't recall accepting those terms. In any event, it's obvious to anyone that Trance and Limit Breaks are the same thing. Hell, they were the same thing from Final Fantasy VI through IX. In VI, they were called "Desperation Moves" and automatically happened sometimes when a character's health was really low. In VII, they occur after a character has been pounded on for a while. In VIII, they occur when a character's HP is low, like in VI. In IX, they occur after a character gets pounded on for a while like in VII, but they also occur for storyline purposes a few times when a character's in a moment of -- wait for it -- desperation.

Considering that the physics that apply to the worlds of VII and IX are repeatedly pointed out to be the same (the Cycle of Souls, a Lifestream, the gift of Spirit Energy at conception, etc.), it's perfectly fine to mention those things here as far as I'm concerned. So I'll do so where it seems important.

In any event, I didn't try to use something from outside of VII to explain something. If you'll notice, I referred to a term by its VII title and then threw in a backslash with the name of its IX counterpart after. This is different from what you asked not to receive in responses (explanations employing things outside of VII), which is why I feel rather justified with my smart-ass and long-winded response here.


But, seriously, defeating your own argument with the evidence you cited above was rather... odd. To argue that not just anybody can use Limit Breaks and to cite... just anybody... who is capable of it is rather weird.

[KoShiatar]

Just a very small correction..."desperation moves" in FF VI did not automatically happen, unless you mean by that that they happened without the player having to choose any command. But they were completely random and actually had quite a low chance of happening.

[Sefie1999AD]

Uh... it's outright shown and stated in the game that Hojo infused him with Mako. We see him and Zack floating in tubes full of Mako. We read reports in the basement of the mansion that state he was injected with JENOVA and infused with Mako. Go back to the mansion's basement and watch the flashback, then read the books.

Is it? The tubes were full of green liquid whereas Mako is blue. That seemed to me like some sort of liquid waste, not Mako. As for the reports, one of them mentions that Zack (specimen A) was given both Mako Radiation Therapy and Jenova, but neither had any effects on him. It's said that reaction to Jenova was detected for Cloud (specimen B). However, it is not "outright shown and stated" that Cloud was given the same Mako Therapy as Zack.

You just defeated your own argument by mentioning the kid near AVALANCHE's hideout. I somehow doubt that there was anything "special" about him. Or Cid for that matter. Or Yuffie. Or Barret. They're all just normal people thrust into an extraordinary situation.

I actually forgot one thing, there's 11 people who can use limit breaks in the game: the nine party members (note: Sephiroth can't when he's in your party!), Highwind's Pilot Trainee and the kid near Avalanche's hideout. Nobody else uses limit breaks or moves that seem like limits in the game. Anyway, how does that defeat my own argument? They're all normal people, yes, but 11 people being able to use limit breaks doesn't mean everyone living in FFVII's world is capable of using them. Think of limit breaks as special abilities, such as... good memory, for example. If you see some normal kid who, say, remembers the first 200 digits of Pi by heart, that doesn't mean everyone knows them. If 11 people in the world remember those digits, that hardly means everyone does.

Your words sound like everyone could use limit breaks in an extraordinary situation. However, why didn't Biggs, Wedge and Jessie use limit breaks when defending Sector 7's support pillar? Why didn't the residents of Fort Condor use limit breaks to defend their homes? Why didn't Rufus use limit breaks against Cloud during their duel at the top of Shinra HQ? Or the citizens of Mideel when the Ultimate Weapon was attacking them? Perhaps only very few people can use limit breaks. It's not said in FFVII that everyone is capable of using them. Just because anyone can Trance in FFIX (not that trance and limit breaks are the same thing anyway), that doesn't mean everyone can unleash limit breaks in FFVII.

You said Spirit Energy can allow people to get a surge of strength to reach trance or perform limit breaks. However, trance occurs, like you said, when a character is being attacked a lot or out of desperation. Since FFIX mentions Spirit Energy nowhere in the game, why do you think Spirit Energy allows Trance? Even in FFVII, the Spirit Energy doesn't make one strong or enable one to use limit breaks. Here's a quote from FFVII:

BUGENHAGEN: "'Spirit Energy' is a word that you should never forget. A new life... children are blessed with Spirit energy and are brought into the world. Then, the time comes with they die and once again return to the Planet... Of course there are exceptions, but this is the way of the world. I've digressed, but you'll understand better if you watch this."
(Text on the screen: "Spirit energy makes all things possible, trees, birds, and humans. Not just living things. But Spirit energy makes it possible for Planets to be Planets. What happens if that Spirit energy were to disappear?")
BUGENHAGEN: "... These are the basics of the Study of Planet Life."
CLOUD: "If the Spirit energy is lost, our Planet is destroyed..."

To me, this sounds like Spirit Energy keeps living beings and planets alive, sort of like how you keep breathing or how your blood keeps flowing. It's not said in FFVII that Spirit Energy would give you extraordinary powers. That is why I don't believe Cloud's strength can be explained with Spirit Energy, but perhaps intense training and willpower, both being perfectly natural things. Note, I am not contradicting myself here, as I am merely talking about Cloud's strength, not his capability for limit breaks.

I don't recall accepting those terms. In any event, it's obvious to anyone that Trance and Limit Breaks are the same thing. Hell, they were the same thing from Final Fantasy VI through IX. In VI, they were called "Desperation Moves" and automatically happened sometimes when a character's health was really low. In VII, they occur after a character has been pounded on for a while. In VIII, they occur when a character's HP is low, like in VI. In IX, they occur after a character gets pounded on for a while like in VII, but they also occur for storyline purposes a few times when a character's in a moment of -- wait for it -- desperation.

In that case, feel free not to accept them, but it doesn't mean I'll pay any attention to what you have to say because it's off-topic. I don't see your logic by saying desperation moves, limit breaks and trance are the same thing and that they work the same way. In FFVII, you can perform a limit break at full HP whereas that's impossible in FFVI, and only works in FFVIII if you're wearing Aura. In FFIX, Trance is a state the character will be on, not a single powerful move. If you claim anyone can use limit breaks in FFVII because anyone can reach trance in FFIX, explain this to me: everyone can summon monsters in FFVII, but only Dagger and Eiko can summon monsters in FFIX. The games are set on different worlds and have their different systems, so using the other game's battle system to make conclusions of the other game's battle system is like trying to make an orange drink with the recipe of a strawberry cider - IMHO, it's not going to work.

Considering that the physics that apply to the worlds of VII and IX are repeatedly pointed out to be the same (the Cycle of Souls, a Lifestream, the gift of Spirit Energy at conception, etc.), it's perfectly fine to mention those things here as far as I'm concerned. So I'll do so where it seems important.

Yes, but there are major differences as well. How do you explain that FFVII's Planet can use its power as well as the Lifestream, to heal itself whereas FFIX's Terra and Gaia aren't known to have similar properties? FFIX doesn't imply in any way that a dead person could retain his/her identity when becoming one of the bigger whole. In FFVII AC, it's shown that Aeris and Zack certainly remained individuals even after they reached the Planet. The terms will also be different and not to be mixed. Admittedly, football, basketball and ice hockey all have their similarities, but you can only "shoot the puck to the net" in ice hockey or "dunk it straight to the basket" in basketball. If you ever get a penalty kick in football, try dunking the puck to the net and you'll see what I mean. In addition, planets have similarities, such as Earth and Mars, but does that make them the same planet, so that you could just move from Earth to Mars and not notice any difference? I don't think so, and the transition from an FF world to another isn't any easier.

In any event, I didn't try to use something from outside of VII to explain something. If you'll notice, I referred to a term by its VII title and then threw in a backslash with the name of its IX counterpart after. This is different from what you asked not to receive in responses (explanations employing things outside of VII), which is why I feel rather justified with my smart-ass and long-winded response here.

If you aren't trying to use anything from outside FFVII to explain something, why did you even mention other FFs, such as FFIX, in the first place?

But, seriously, defeating your own argument with the evidence you cited above was rather... odd. To argue that not just anybody can use Limit Breaks and to cite... just anybody... who is capable of it is rather weird.

I agree, it is, as you said, rather odd, because I didn't defeat my own argument... you did, by putting words into my mouth rather than actually taking notice of anything I was trying to say. When someone who likes debating - and I assume that you do, but please forgive me if I am mistaken - does something like that, I do find it indeed rather odd, almost as odd as them declaring their opinions and speculations as facts and claiming alternate opinions to be completely erroneous and flawed.

[Winter Nights]

I'm not even going into the contradictions of your Limit Break statements, cause I have a headache as it is.

I will note that one of the best known facts of FF7 is that Mako energy is or comes from the Lifestream... Which is shown as green. When Cloud, Sephy, and Tifa find crystalized Mako in a cave in Mt Nibel.. It is green. No where in the game does it state or show that Mako is blue.

[Psychotic]

I will note that one of the best known facts of FF7 is that Mako energy is or comes from the Lifestream... Which is shown as green. When Cloud, Sephy, and Tifa find crystalized Mako in a cave in Mt Nibel.. It is green. No where in the game does it state or show that Mako is blue.

I always thought Mako was blue, because of the blue colouring in the eyes of those who had been infused with Mako, and also the fact that the tanks that the SOLDIERS were kept in at the Nibelheim Reactor (you see in during the flashback) contained blue stuff.

Oh, and I think when Palmer uses his Mako gun in the Rocket Town battle, the result is something like Ice 2, which is blue

EDIT: Oh, he also can use Fire 2 and Bolt 2 like this, but this shows Mako doesn't have a set colour, maybe?

[Winter Nights]

Still not explaining why crystallized Mako is green. Why the Mako energy coming out of the reactors is green. And they never said that Mako makes your eyes blue. It said that your eyes glow.

[Sefie1999AD]

Still not explaining why crystallized Mako is green. Why the Mako energy coming out of the reactors is green. And they never said that Mako makes your eyes blue. It said that your eyes glow.

However, the fluid in the tanks where Cloud and Zack were was green and clearly liquid. So the green thing wasn't crystallized. BTW When you condense Mako, it becomes Materia, and Materia is known to have five different colors: Red, Green, Blue, Yellow and Purple.

[Winter Nights]

I never said that only crystallized mako is green. I was just pointing out a scene in the game that showed Mako to be green. And Mako itself was only ever shown as green. Color difference only came into play when materia was created.

And by that statement, you just negated your original argument that Mako is blue. So which is it?