need a good mmo

[Lionx]

The alternatives to grind that I've seen are a limited and confusing PvP system and quests that are entirely divorced from the monster killing concept, which usually involve running half-way across the world and then back again, great fun. Don't get me started on the broken crafting system, because I really don't get how that many tools can break at once with nothing to show from it.

I dont believe so, the PvP system is very well made in terms of balance in general, although uncapped and 30 caps some subjobs and gear makes things quite crazy xD, i dont find it very confusing at all, just most people dont put in the effort to try it out or read. I feel its pretty well done. Not the best mind you, but with introduction of exp, gil, and rankings, i find it more fun to participate. My WAR was 40, now its almost lvling up to 41 thanks to this PvP. My WHM lost 2K exp getting attacked by this Pirate NM on the ship, now its sorta made it up and past that with Ballista. Its fun too if you dont like partying and grinding(which i admit CAN become that way if you party hardcore).

Quests do have NM killing and the sort too, although if you want to build fame you are probably better off not doing those since most do require a party to beat for NM fights. Alternatives to the grind now are NPC partner playing, you can summon an NPC for a limited ammount of time(therefore keeping with the partying system) and newly introduced are rings that can be used once a week to enhance exp(so a 200exp mob will be conisdered 250 in what i noticed in my last party when the item is used). It also makes soloing very much easier, if anything one person said that if it didnt limit you to one use per week, they(being 74) could probably solo high enough to hit 75. Granted partying is always better as the game revolves around that, but soloing isnt as unviable as it is once was you hit a certain level with the right things(never beats pt though).

The crafting system i find it to be fine, high end items are supposed to be rare and hard to get therefore it keeps in line with that. And items have to disappear somewhere, guild points and failures(as much as we hate them) help with that so there is no recycling of certain items.(and therefore a price decrease of them due to too much supply)

In order to party you have to fulfil a specific role, there's no freedom at all in that, the last I heard of it ONLY Black Mages can deal damage, and if anyone else tries then they usually never find any more parties after that, as well as the fact that you have to be in a party to go pretty much anywhere.

I actually find the party to be a good thing, i think its more of the asian mentality that its good to be a group and surpass things. The thing i hated when playing RO is that soloing IS viable in every single way for the most part, i didnt like that, and in WoW i didnt like that you can solo through most of the game.

As far as i know, its not ONLY BLMs that can deal damage, RDMs can do fine, and you vastly underestimate SMN. WHM vs Undead is very deadly as well especially in a skillchain with decent Divine Skill.

I had a friend who was playing with some other people and had to leave to go eat dinner, he came back, they were miles ahead and he couldn't get back to them, a game where you have to sit down and actually PLAN when you play and who you play with just doesn't make any sense.

Dont you plan when you need to get together with friends to do things too? Its the same with a party, there needs to be some commitment. Its how the game is when you play with other people, you dont go AFK for 1 hour leaving them stranded to do whatever. I find it to be a strength and weakness though for this point. As i agree a little, yet disagree a little at the same time.

How about that monster tag system, eh? You attack a monster, nobody else can attack it, sounds good, eh? Not really, considering monsters never stop chasing you and have the mystical ability to hit you from miles away, once you're after something you're stuck with it. Oh but sure, you can call for help! Except when you call for help, nobody gets any EXP or items from the monster, good one.

Besides the running miles away thing and they still hit you(its not THAT huge though), yes, it would be good to level off of something, Call for Help, then let somelvl 75 person kill it in one blow AND get items and exp. Right..whats your solution to that then?

The Primary/Secondary system sounds great, doesn't it? Except, with fixed stats your entire being relies on gear, and most of that gear is highly contentious, so enjoy joining that queue to kill the slime monster (I can't remember if it was a slime, something like that) that drops the ACC item you need for your Dark Knight, because you're utterly screwed without it!

Untrue, it basicaly depends on the job, a MNK job that doesnt rely much besides punching the monster most of the time, like a DRK, does rely on gear more. However a job like a PLD or a NIN would rely on their decisions and skill they have in reacting to whats happening more. Like a WHM too at times, as long as your gear is not horrible(like lvl 50 with lvl 10 gear..no one in any game is gonna like that) the decisions you make matter more than a MNK. It should also make it easier to actually get the gear you need since outside of race, there is nominal differences(racial differences are only extreme in terms of HP and MP anyway).

Last i know, DRKs dont get a - Accuracy Trait, that is a misconception of that DRK's high delay in attack Accuracy matters a little more, but they arent totally screwed without it. With introduction of Sushi you can forgo Acc gear(some parts anyway). Sniper Rings arent a need, its a luxury item, people were just in a fad for it before. Now there are good cheaper alternatives including the Shakree's ring(from the same slime, but because its rare/ex now and the previous ring is in a BCNM now, no one is camping that NM anymore besides for those who want that rare/ex ring), and Verener's Ring which is pretty cheap and is easy to quest once you beat Promyvion.

I still believe however that you hate it so much that you are refusing to find any positives, and is taking it to the opposite extremes. However the negatives you stated arent as negative as they are to me and i find FFXI to be absolutely fine. There is fun before you reach 60, otherwise do you think so many people still play today? Just because it isnt fun for you doesnt mean that its not fun for some of us, like WoW, i dont find it fun to solo but some do, so go ahead(just talking about that since FFXI and WoW's extremes seems to be this).

No game HAS to necessarily cater to everyone, if they want it to be more hardcore than you wish it then very well, dont play it, other people still can enjoy it without hearing about how much it sucks from you especially when someone else thinks those things are not as bad as they seem. FFXI is not perfect, i too find it slow at times and blah, however that doesnt mean that taking a few days off, i dont come back playing it with a new interest and vigor and find it to be a good game. WoW doesnt cater to me and GW probably wont as much as FFXI, but does that mean they suck ass? Hell no..they probably dont, they just dont appeal to me the same way.

EDIT: About ROSE..i think last i saw it, it was on the official RO site with a link to it. Tell me about how it is sometime hehe

[Lindy]

Doesn't sound as bad as it was when you put it like that, there, see, simply solved.

I'm still not going to play it because I don't really like it, and it's good that you do, though it seems to be a game that really only caters to specific people and you either love it or hate it (most of the people I know on WoW are those that left FFXI because it became too much of a chore).

And FFXI and WoW are most certainly not polar extremes.

You can't solo everything in WoW, you can't solo instances, you can't solo elites, a lot of quests are too hard to solo when they're yellow level and only until you level heavily over so they're green, are a class well-suited to solo play or are insanely careful can you solo every non-elite, non-instance quest, and even then once you're reaching 50 (or even over 40), parties are required. That's the thing, just because you CAN solo, doesn't mean partying isn't viable, you actually get an exp bonus for being in a party, your problem with WoW being that you can solo the game is ignoring the fact that many and most people party their way through the whole thing (like myself).

The difference lies in that you can work well with a party of two or three, you don't need a full compliment of everything in a party to succeed.

My friend and I work wonderfully well with myself as a Rogue and him as a Priest, no tank class in there, just damage and healing, but it works out great.

Add in the high end instances (especially Molten Core's 40-man instance raid), and you have some very hardcore gaming.

And in response to planning time to play, I don't specifically set aside time to play, usually when I want to the friend I play with all the time is on too, and when we get on we just do what we feel like. There's no specific need to plan to do this, go here, kill that, we just play it how we feel. Freedom like that is what I enjoy, I can finish a few quests in one area, hop on my mount, ride to another, pick up an instance party and harvest some ereet itamz.

Y'know, actually, after you mentioned the asian comment about FFXI, it suddenly makes a lot more sense.

It's not a hardcore game, it's an asian game XD

EDIT : ROSE is alright, but it has no eventual goal other than levelling enough to move onto the next level to level up more. Carts are fun though, and so are Castle Gears, but you need an Artisan friend to get the good stuff, and it takes FOREVER to get up to the level to use them anyway.

[Lionx]

Well see thats the thing too, in RO you dont have to solo either, but alot of people do prefer to solo at least on every server i played in. Of course the ridgidness of the party system i heard is not as defined as it is in FFXI since my friend says that his tank can lose hate sometimes and it wont be THAT huge a problem as it can be in FFXI where your mage starts nuking like a machine gun and getting himself killed in 3-4 hits. I only said that extreme because of what i know about it(prove me wrong :P).

However i know instances and other things like that require partying. FFXI doesnt need a full 6 man party too, its just most people prefer to kill monsters way above their level that is better if you have 6. A party of 3 can probably kill some Toughs or low tier Very Toughs for decent exp as well especially with the new NPCs these days. Just most prefer the 6 man party which i have to say its more of a community thing...and yes that sucks xD

I find ballista to be kinda casual too at times. I dunno, maybe its because i can participate in 30-60 cap ballista. But thats me O_o; I like farming a few here and there while crafting casually too. I enjoy helping other people even more though although some help requires planning. I dont like to plan at times too, but i do prefer that some of the tougher things required to plan and excel at. Mind numbing at times yes, but not that horrible if you got brains to plan it out i feel.

My friend and I work wonderfully well with myself as a Rogue and him as a Priest, no tank class in there, just damage and healing, but it works out great.

I guess we are on different extremes here or sides if extremes is too much. I like the ridgidness, like you are good at tanking, omecle will tank for me because he is best at holding hate, therefore my blm friend can do more excellent damage and not worry as much about hate, but because omecle as a PLD does take a few more hits a WHM such as me would be best to take the duty of healing him, and add in the other classes which excel at different areas, feels like a real good team...not just any class thrown together works well. I mean obviously for different things this does not apply(the class differences), but strictly exp situations here. I like that..but obviously i know it does create some unhappiness when your friend chooses a class that a party cannot have 2 of(like 2 WHMs outside of valkurm..weak). But know what i mean..? I felt so..blah as Acrolyite in RO because you can use potions so easily to make me feel..weak D: outside of their PvP known as "Guild Wars".

And on that note, how is RO compared to ROSE..? Is ROSE just an updated RO game..?

and yes AZN R L33T!!!1111one!..*trips* x_x

[Mookies]

Can someone give me a link to ROSE's offical home page??? Please

Google "Rose online" - first link.

Last time I heard, Rose, closed its public beta and moved into private beta or something like that, you needed to sign up for a site to access it.
But recently you could play the Japanese Rose, free...for now.
ROSE is going P2P.

It kind of lost me with the screwed up economy and lvl grind.

And on that note, how is RO compared to ROSE..? Is ROSE just an updated RO game..?

Rose is basically like RO but 3D, yes it is very similar - classes,skills, etc.

[Rostum]

Actually, I am a pretty hardcore player, but I believe that games should be able to appeal to everyone, both hardcore and casual. I don't remember seeing ANYWHERE the words "For hardcore players only" on FFXI, so really, show me some official sources that state that and I'll roll with it.

If you can't see that it's more of a hardcore game, then there's something wrong with you. No game is going to officialy state it's for hardcore gamers only. O.o;

I'm still not going to play it because I don't really like it, and it's good that you do, though it seems to be a game that really only caters to specific people and you either love it or hate it (most of the people I know on WoW are those that left FFXI because it became too much of a chore).

Actually, a load of people left WoW to come back to FFXI (including myself). But in either case I could really say the same thing about WoW - that it only caters to specific people, and I agree FFXI caters to specific people too.

The difference lies in that you can work well with a party of two or three, you don't need a full compliment of everything in a party to succeed.

Actually, you don't really need a full party of 6, 12 or 18 to accomplish everything in FFXI. You can easily do coffer hunts with around 3-4 people.

And in response to planning time to play, I don't specifically set aside time to play, usually when I want to the friend I play with all the time is on too, and when we get on we just do what we feel like. There's no specific need to plan to do this, go here, kill that, we just play it how we feel. Freedom like that is what I enjoy, I can finish a few quests in one area, hop on my mount, ride to another, pick up an instance party and harvest some ereet itamz.

Okay so you like to do that, fair enough. I like to do different things in FFXI but they take more time. So how does it make it more flawed? Just because you don't like the differences? I find doing quest after quest, instance after instance, in WoW, to be pretty damn boring and repetitive. I do agree leveling in FFXI can get pretty boring, but there are a lot of missions to do (and yes they get better after the 11th one, and I was almost certain WoW has no story), the PvP is improving all the time, there are a lot of higher-end quests that are actually fun and rewarding, and with the next expansion coming out they are introducing some new job classes and an added story line (so that makes the original, nation, RoZ, CoP and new expanion stories that are rather interesting).

In conclusion, just because a game doesn't suite you, doesn't make it flawed. There's a lot more to FFXI that anything you've stated - and a lot of things are completely different to what you've said. Although I can still enjoy WoW, I like FFXI much more, and... guild wars is just a side game because of the no monthly fee's. Don't play it too much, but I still like to.

It's very obvious that you don't like the game (which is fine), and taking every negetive point and making it more extreme than it actually is. In either case Lionx pretty much sums up the rest, I think.

Oh and on a last note, I really disliked ROSE for some reason. The controls were really bad, and nothing was that fun. I didn't play for too long though.

[Lindy]

See, you still can't accept it's flawed, even in a small way.

How sad.

And WoW has not only ten years of Warcraft Story, but tons of lore and backstory as well as story that rolls out through quests and quest chains, so yeah, good one there.

[Rostum]

So someone who hasn't played Warcraft can't pick up the story then? Gee ain't that great.

I do accept flaws, I even stated that level grinding was boring, and that you do have to wait for parties (which I don't mind). I was just saying that you don't like FFXI so you find it's flaws and make them extreme.

[Lionx]

What is a flaw to some, is a strength to others. Thats all i have to say on that issue.

And WoW has not only ten years of Warcraft Story, but tons of lore and backstory as well as story that rolls out through quests and quest chains, so yeah, good one there.

I totally disagree, WoW has bad story and lore, because most of it is part of an already existing world from its previous games. Its nothing original or anything like that, FFXI however is totally original, they had nothing to fall back on and call that lore. If anything the lore of WoW is other Warcraft games, not WoW itself. So Warcraft 1, 2 and 3 had good lore, WoW itself had none IMO.

As for the Quest chains, that is the same as Missions in FFXI, the Quests(most) put more backstory into how people are in those nations.

[Lindy]

I don't see how having a solid backstory for a game is bad, and you most certainly don't need to play the previous Warcraft games to understand it, heck, I haven't. It isn't original? I'd rather have a solidly built story on something that's already been and is already well known. The world is set out, and people can explore the places they've seen and known in the Warcraft games, but you don't HAVE to have played those to enjoy the world. Heck, I've learned the entire Warcraft story, from the first up until WC3:FT story purely from playing missions and reading the books spread around the world.

See, just because a game doesn't have story missions doesn't mean it doesn't have story.

Every instance has a background, has a reason, and has missions within it that follow a story.

Every race has a background, has a purpose and reason.

Just because it doesn't have missions that say "lol dis is storee" doesn't mean there isn't any.

Oh and lets look at your generally "great" argument Omecle, which is "You don't like FFXI so you think it's very flawed", well the same thing applies to you, you like the game so you don't think it's very flawed, if anything you're more biased than I am because you're playing it and I'm not. You say the game doesn't "suit" me so I don't like it, well the reason it doesn't "suit" me is BECAUSE it's flawed.

A flaw is a flaw, it doesn't magically become a strength just because you think it is.

But heck, at least it has one slogan that'll work.

FFXI; at least it's not Everquest.

Now I really can't be bothered to argue with you any more because you I feel like I'm trying to break through a brick wall.

[bipper]

Well, if it is not a mud, chances are it sucks. I have yet to see any graphical MMO encase the ammount of fun as any MUD I have played in the past. I have made a couple muds, and anyone can, its easy! Granted they are text based, but easily more addicting and fun than thier graphical counter parts.

Bipper

[Craig]

In conclusion, just because a game doesn't suite you, doesn't make it flawed.

I think you'll find that everything is flawed in some way, no matter how hard you try to deny it, nothing is perfect.

And obviously if a certain person doesn't like a game it has flaws, because if it had no flaws everyone in the world would adore it.

[Lionx]

From what i am seeing, Lindy, you are the brick wall. We have different viewpoints yes, but for me at least i dont say WoW sucks with no redemption at all, at least FFXI is not Everquest type of talk. Most of the people that left FFXI has that kind of attitude from where i see on other forums, and somewhat glad. Just because you dont like it and find "flaws"(which there very well be to you), doesnt mean we find the same "flaws" and see them the same way. Maybe you can see that too. Just because you dont like blue and find it a flaw, doesnt mean that i cant like blue and find it something great.

Everything is flawed in some way if you wanna put it that way(and it might be true), however is the "flaw" enough to make you stop playing the game and make it a "bad" game? Thats up to the individual, and you cannot put that as truth. EQ is good, but flawed. FFXI is good but flawed, WoW is good but flawed, GW is good but flawed. But does that mean these are bad games now..? Not necessarily depending on the person.

The Warcraft story to ME is very weak because they used the previous games as a crutch IMO. A game that starts their story without any previous games seem to generate a much more...creativeness and originality so to speak. I mean they can easily make FFXI with a story from a previous FF game and expanded upon it, but the fact that they did not and tried something totally different to me seems much more admirable and have more hard work.

Every instance has a background, has a reason, and has missions within it that follow a story.

Every race has a background, has a purpose and reason.

This is the same in FFXI, every race does have a long history if you read it and do quests, and everything has a purpose and reason too, PvP has a backstory, Dynamis(some of that instance 64 man raid), and other stuff also has a backstory and history that flows within the world too. The Vanadiel Tribute(the newspaper) is also a great thing to read to learn more about Vanadiel.

Oh and lets look at your generally "great" argument Omecle, which is "You don't like FFXI so you think it's very flawed", well the same thing applies to you, you like the game so you don't think it's very flawed, if anything you're more biased than I am because you're playing it and I'm not. You say the game doesn't "suit" me so I don't like it, well the reason it doesn't "suit" me is BECAUSE it's flawed.

On that same note, if you turn it around, you are MORE biased than any of us because you ARENT playing the game. Because you arent playing the game, you obviously feel that there is more flaws than there isnt unlike us and will obviously focus on that because you arent playing. You say the game is flawed because it doesnt suit you, yet at the same time you dont like it therefore its flawed, but however does that apply to me? To the guy around the block? Anything considering what you said can be a flaw if you dont like it, and we dont have to like the same things. And frankly that would be scary if we did.

I do not believe Omecle EVER stated that FFXI has NO flaws. He stated a few if someone went back and read his posts. However are those flaws as bad as what Lindy has stated? I do not feel so, and it is greatly exxagerrated(or maybe its just the sarcastic way that he posts that has that "its the truth" connotation through it), and we stated our reasons why we still like that game.

Anyway..*tries to chip the wall*

[Rostum]

Well, if it is not a mud, chances are it sucks. I have yet to see any graphical MMO encase the ammount of fun as any MUD I have played in the past. I have made a couple muds, and anyone can, its easy! Granted they are text based, but easily more addicting and fun than thier graphical counter parts.

I have never played a text based MMO, I remember having fun with some old Zork games though. I may have to try one out sometime.

I think you'll find that everything is flawed in some way, no matter how hard you try to deny it, nothing is perfect.

And obviously if a certain person doesn't like a game it has flaws, because if it had no flaws everyone in the world would adore it.

I do understand this. I never said it didn't have any flaws - I'm just trying to state that Lindy is taking the flaws it has and making them extreme as to make it seem un-playable.

Oh and lets look at your generally "great" argument Omecle, which is "You don't like FFXI so you think it's very flawed", well the same thing applies to you, you like the game so you don't think it's very flawed, if anything you're more biased than I am because you're playing it and I'm not. You say the game doesn't "suit" me so I don't like it, well the reason it doesn't "suit" me is BECAUSE it's flawed.

I do not believe Omecle EVER stated that FFXI has NO flaws. He stated a few if someone went back and read his posts. However are those flaws as bad as what Lindy has stated? I do not feel so, and it is greatly exxagerrated(or maybe its just the sarcastic way that he posts that has that "its the truth" connotation through it), and we stated our reasons why we still like that game.

Exactly, when did I ever say that FFXI was the perfect game ever? I never did. I do accept it has some flaws and I accept them on a non-biased motion.

I can honestly say that FFXI and WoW have their flaws, after playing both for awhile now, and that I still like FFXI and don't think it's flaws are that much of a big deal. So therefor of course my statements are going to be biased, just like yours are.

WoW can still be enjoyed, for me, it's just at the moment I really like FFXI a lot more. So what are you going to do? Continue to convince me that WoW is a better option? That's your whole point with this topic, right?

All in all, you seem like you're just trying to chip away at a few brick walls, and I don't understand this. You've been arguing with our opinions and now you've given up because we don't 'see the true light'? You can believe WoW is a better game, I can believe FFXI is a better game. I have my reasons to think so and I have my reasons to void what you think is flawed in the game - it doesn't have to be a flaw for me. But in saying that I still think what you've said about FFXI has been over exagerated to make it look worse than what it actualy is.

[Lionx]

Oh yeah about the party dying and losing exp more than you started..then your group must suck(or have bad luck). FFXI is more punishing to stupidity than most MMOs but even then its not that hard to get a working party, just plan ahead.