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Thread: The Scourge of Postmodernism

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    Unpostmodernizeable Shadow Nexus's Avatar
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    Default The Scourge of Postmodernism

    Militancy is something I have been thinking a lot lately, I would like to know your opinion on it. OK, so basically, the traditional definition of a militant is someone who fights aggresively for a cause, although the popular definition of this word basically includes anyone who fights for a political cause with some passion. Yeah, going to a demonstration against the war ain’t exactly what I would call militancy, going to many probably is. I know I am making a vague definition, but to make an example, I consider a militant, for example, the guy who is affiliated to a political party or a general political organization, demonstrates for his cause, he sometimes organizes activites, goes to political meetings, concerts organized by organizations friendly to his ideas, etc, etc. You get the idea. Militancy can be deep and felt or can be superficial, but we can leave the superficial one asides for now.

    Currently, the western culture is under crisis. Although I write from the European point of view, I think the problems in Europe can be somehow applied to the general western world. Basically, post-modernism could be considered as a crisis of values, the transcendental ideas are being set apart by new values which could be considered superficial. In front of this problem, some still hold to the values of modernism, in an attempt to resurrect the transcendental values. On the other hand, many others hold to what I call “occasion philosophies”, theories I happen to find pretty superficial and not satisfying at all, many of them obviously sustained by those who defend the current culture. On this postmodern philosophies, I could find examples like some branches of anglosaxon pragmatic philosophies, or pseudo-religious new age taken under superficial ideas, I am sure anyone who has read Paulo Cohelo knows what I am talking about. I do not wish to close it here, as I believe there is one large branch I want to consider in this post. After the death of God Nietzsche predicted, we face nihilism. Nihilism comes from latin “nihil”, meaning “nothing”. The nihilist, seeing the death of all transcendental values, the decadence of metaphysics, simply puts asides any beliefs and falls into a total political skepticism, he does not believe in trascendence seeing it dead, he doesn’t believe in the cheap philosophies that last for ten years if lucky. It’s not being apathetic, it’s more like being hopeless.

    Now, here comes my problem. I used to consider myself on the side of modernism, I used to consider myself as a friend of the Enlightenment. Yet, through this past year I have been able to read from other ideas, which have awakened me from the dream of reason. I don’t want to go much into this, as it will come off as excessively pedantic, and I hope you can forgive me, but I believe this names are to be taken into account if you have never read them. First came Charles Baudelaire, and then it was when I read a branch of philosophy that had always tempted me, but I had never got into: Goethe, Hölderlin, Shelling, Nietzsche, Baruch Spinoza, Herman Hesse…one would say, the romantics (or neoromantics and pre-romantics, cause Nietzsche, Spinoza and Hesse are not romantic). Here I found what had been lacking in the Enlightenment, this is, the great transcendental idea of Beauty, rescued at last from Plato, the greatest of all thinkers. And as reason is doubted, one abandons modernism. As one embraces the fading vestiges of romanticism, what waits at the end of the path seems to be the precipice of nihil, and as one gazes into the abyss, the abyss gazes back. The romantic, upon the face of nothingness, becomes what I like to call- in lack of a better word- a cynical (not understood as the Greek school, but more as the noir detective cynism). The cynical is close to the nihilist, cynism is probably a postmodern attitude too, maybe the cynical is the postmodern romantic, the disappointed romantic, one that, seeking the transcendental idea of Beauty, finds himself in a world of make-ups and pedlars, a tacky mask dance. From this disappointment comes irony, irony because in front of all this one can only laugh, yet of course, it is not a happy laughter, but acidic.

    And here I close my part in this post. There are the ones who still believe, that fight on and on in what seems Sysiphus at work. Not because fight never gives result, it does work, but in front of the great monster of postmodernism, the hungry beast of capitalism, war passing by like a million of grey dogs, is there really any hope? The popular tango says the world was and will always be filthy, but in today’s crisis one would think it is more than filth, it is a large desert. Yet, as Catalan poet Marti i Pol says, “there is no use for the yearning or the sadness,/ or the touch of discontented melancholy,/ we wear as jumper or tie/ when we go to the street. We have only/ what we have, that’s all: the period of concrete history/ we are in, and a minuscule territory to live it”. The poem ends for militancy, it asks us to fight:

    “Posem-nos dempeus altra vegada i que se senti
    la veu de tots solemnement i clara.
    Cridem qui som i que tothom ho escolti.
    I en acabat, que cadascú es vesteixi
    com bonament li plagui, i via fora!,
    que tot està per fer i tot és possible.”

    Let’s rise again and may
    The voice of all sound solemn and clear,
    Let’s shout who we are and may everyone hear it.
    And in the end, may everyone dress up
    As they wish, and move forward!
    Because everything is yet to be done, and everything is possible.


    I used to believe in it. Once reason is doubted, you do believe everything is yet to be done, but it seems nothing is possible. Nothing but nothingness.

  2. #2
    Shlup's Retired Pimp Recognized Member Raistlin's Avatar
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    Basically, post-modernism could be considered as a crisis of values, the transcendental ideas are being set apart by new values which could be considered superficial. In front of this problem, some still hold to the values of modernism, in an attempt to resurrect the transcendental values. On the other hand, many others hold to what I call “occasion philosophies”, theories I happen to find pretty superficial and not satisfying at all, many of them obviously sustained by those who defend the current culture. On this postmodern philosophies, I could find examples like some branches of anglosaxon pragmatic philosophies, or pseudo-religious new age taken under superficial ideas, I am sure anyone who has read Paulo Cohelo knows what I am talking about. I do not wish to close it here, as I believe there is one large branch I want to consider in this post. After the death of God Nietzsche predicted, we face nihilism. Nihilism comes from latin “nihil”, meaning “nothing”. The nihilist, seeing the death of all transcendental values, the decadence of metaphysics, simply puts asides any beliefs and falls into a total political skepticism, he does not believe in trascendence seeing it dead, he doesn’t believe in the cheap philosophies that last for ten years if lucky. It’s not being apathetic, it’s more like being hopeless.
    I think this may be the first thing you've said that I agree with.

    Yet, through this past year I have been able to read from other ideas, which have awakened me from the dream of reason. I don’t want to go much into this, as it will come off as excessively pedantic, and I hope you can forgive me, but I believe this names are to be taken into account if you have never read them. First came Charles Baudelaire, and then it was when I read a branch of philosophy that had always tempted me, but I had never got into: Goethe, Hölderlin, Shelling, Nietzsche, Baruch Spinoza, Herman Hesse…one would say, the romantics (or neoromantics and pre-romantics, cause Nietzsche, Spinoza and Hesse are not romantic). Here I found what had been lacking in the Enlightenment, this is, the great transcendental idea of Beauty, rescued at last from Plato, the greatest of all thinkers. And as reason is doubted, one abandons modernism.
    Now you ruined it.

    You are right in the first part - the general analysis - but wrong in your conclusions, because of a fault in your premises. Modernism (especially post-modernism, from what I've read) is the antithesis of the Enlightenment and of reason.

    EDIT: Couldn't resist:

    And here I close my part in this post. There are the ones who still believe, that fight on and on in what seems Sysiphus at work. Not because fight never gives result, it does work, but in front of the great monster of postmodernism, the hungry beast of capitalism, war passing by like a million of grey dogs, is there really any hope?
    Post-modernist philosophy is also contradictory to capitalist philosophy.

    Once reason is doubted, you do believe everything is yet to be done, but it seems nothing is possible. Nothing but nothingness.
    This is true. Once reason's doubted, nothing is possible except suffering and delusion.

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    Nietzsche didn't predict the "death of God". He wrote about it when it was happening. To him, God had died in his era. I don't think Nihilism will be taken seriously any time soon. Anyways, I'm not going to pretend I was able to follow you. Too many references to too many things I haven't a clue about.

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    I disagree. It's true that culture is degrading, but conclusions on the how and why are at fault.

    We've entered an age of flux. Old values have collapsed (as values tend to do in the face of change). Unfortunately, we've yet to construct a new value system to replace the dead one. Although we've certainly got a lot of eager individuals trying to adapt the old. A task proven futile by history.

    So, we yap about the failure of this or that. But the truth is, we're in what will be viewed one day as a cultural rebirth. Lots of pain, but ultimately a good ending.
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    Unpostmodernizeable Shadow Nexus's Avatar
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    Modernism (especially post-modernism, from what I've read) is the antithesis of the Enlightenment and of reason.
    Um...no. Modernism is not the antithesis of Enlightenment. In fact, it's almost the same thing. Modernism is the age of Enlightenment. Post-modernism is not a philosophy, it is a period in history. Philosophies of this time don't have to agree with capitalism, and I never said that, sometimes they do. For example, neoliberalism.

    So, we yap about the failure of this or that. But the truth is, we're in what will be viewed one day as a cultural rebirth. Lots of pain, but ultimately a good ending.
    I have often compared this age to greek Helenism or the times of Barroque in Europe. The difference, however, is that this period has a very wide extension, and it seems harder to bring down. Upon the fall of the Berlin wall, Frencis Fukuyama proclaimed that was "the end of history". That, I don't agree with, and after 9/11 Fukuyama admited "he might have been wrong".

    Yet, my question here is where will this new values come from. Or from whom.

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    I consider myself an existencial nihilist aswell as an ethical nihilist. I find myself agreeing with Nietzsche's description of nihilism when it comes to morals and the complete lack of purpose and value in the universe, but I've never understood why he has to go all "EVERYTHING DESERVES TO BE DESTROYED! ALL MUST DIE!". I don't understand why a nihilist would believe in the concept of "deserving things" to begin with. If there are no universal morals or ethical values, how would one manage to deserve something? He says that a nihilist is not only a person who desires to destroy everything, but also a person who actually goes out and destroy things. What does nihilism really have to do with destruction? I don't see the connection.

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    Shlup's Retired Pimp Recognized Member Raistlin's Avatar
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    Um...no. Modernism is not the antithesis of Enlightenment. In fact, it's almost the same thing. Modernism is the age of Enlightenment. Post-modernism is not a philosophy, it is a period in history. Philosophies of this time don't have to agree with capitalism, and I never said that, sometimes they do. For example, neoliberalism.
    The Englightenment was a period of reason, where the individual was valued. Modernism is the rise of the subjective and the devaluing of the individual. Pretty much complete opposites.

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    Unpostmodernizeable Shadow Nexus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raistlin
    The Englightenment was a period of reason, where the individual was valued. Modernism is the rise of the subjective and the devaluing of the individual. Pretty much complete opposites.
    Ahem. Enlightenment is a philosophical current, Modernism is a historical period. More or less, to make it quick:

    - Classical philosophy (Plato, Aristotle, Epicure, Seneca, etc)
    - Medieval philosophy (Abulgualid Muhammad, Saint Agustine, etc)
    - Premodern/ Renaissance (Cusa, Marsilio Ficino, etc)
    - Modern (Descartes, Hume, Kant, Spinoza, Goethe, Hegel, Marx, Nietzsche, etc)
    - Contemporary (Husserl, Popper, Deleuze, Focault, etc)

    In the last period of contemporary we could say we have postmodern philosophy, which tends to be quite weak in my opinion. At least until I find a postmodern philosopher I can take seriously...I guess it will exist, somewhere.

    Inside modern philosophy, we find the so called Enlightenment (Kant, Rousseau, for example) and other currents, like socialism (mainly Marx) or romanticism (like Goethe).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Nexus
    Yet, my question here is where will this new values come from. Or from whom.
    My guess.... we're creating it right now. No one seems to understand exactly how powerful the internet really is. The collected knowlege of humanity, at our fingertips. I could in minutes have quotes from every philosopher or historian mentioned thus far in this thread. In an hour I could show how their opinions reflect within the era they came from. In two I could have a pretty detailed (if not terribly clean) comparative essay between all of them.

    But more than that- we have the ability to communicate with almost every other member of our species. I've seen people here draw inspiration from Marx and Aristotle.... SIMULTANEOUSLY. This is Plato's dream incarnate. A self-questioning, self-improving, self-judging, self-correcting and truly self-aware humanity.

    It is from this place, and many other places like it, that the future will be born. That much is clear. Our own little primordial ooze to make humanity's new reality. A soup of pixels and ideas instead of chemical chains and water. Both have electricity in common, at least.

    A true testament to the stunning reality I speak of: I'm very confident that most of you know everything I refer to. You might not agree, and I'm not sure I truly understand the gravity of it, but you at least KNOW what I'm saying. And of course some of us are of an intellectual nature. We'll go on and discuss our conclusions with others, difusing what we've developed here, and absorbing new stuff to bring back. Spreading ideas across every barrier, without even knowing what we do.

    So, as to who will ultimately determine the new society, that's everyone. It's a question of "what" will be created and "why" that I'm interested in. But only that all-powerful force known as time will reveal that mystery.
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    Banned Destai's Avatar
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    I was expecting a funny thread about post men =(

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    I think I might have to agree with Udsana about the importance of the internet in this matter. Generally speaking, improved communications are always going to bring everyone closer together and therefore allow the exchange of more ideas with more ease; the internet in particular (Just look at this very forum.) allows for an access to a startling amount of information, a rapid exchange of thoughts with a huge number of people, and opens (At least ideally) the same up to the entire planet.

    I also think the internet took the world rather by surprise. I doubt anyone in past times could have envisioned something like this; if you'd suggested there was a way to create a message board which could be accessed and added to from Los Angeles, New York, London, Moscow, and Adelaide at the same time, you'd probably have been locked up. It came upon us so quickly that we (As a culture more than as individuals) haven't really found a place to slot the 'net into yet. It's still too new and in too much flux.

    On that note I suspect the internet will (And indeed already is) make a significant contribution to the erosion of the concept of nations as valid delinations of people. Now we have people here from many nations; we can see that although Hachifusa and Bipper are both in America they've got very different values. We can see that although myself and Cloud No.9 are both British we've got even more radically diffferent views. More and more I think we will come to align ourselves by our values, or our particular cultural elements (Emo music and Penny-Arcade, for a simplistic example.), than by where we were born.

    I couldn't actually say if this will have significance on the global stage, but I have a suspicion (Or at least a strange hope.) that we will see subcultures of more variety and more strength emerging than before. (Just look at a comic convention for example. Where once you might have been able to reasonably expect people from Illinois, Wisconsin, and maybe Indiana to attend a Chicago-based comic con, now you can get the word out to the entire United States with ease. And every province of Canada. And you might even get dedicated fans from Australia and England, Europe, heck anywhere on Earth. Tell me that this isn't of great significance.

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    Shlup's Retired Pimp Recognized Member Raistlin's Avatar
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    Inside modern philosophy, we find the so called Enlightenment (Kant, Rousseau, for example) and other currents, like socialism (mainly Marx) or romanticism (like Goethe).
    The Enlightenment is a very broad term, sparking a number of different philosophies. It appears the misinterpretation is my fault, as I did not specify enough: when I think Enlightenment, I think Locke. Just because Locke and Kant were both part of "The Enlightenment" doesn't mean that they had similar views.

    On a similar note, Plato and Aristotle were from the same period, but both sparked very different philosophies down the road. Plato lead to Kant which led to Neitzsche, whereas Aristotle lead to Locke and many of the 17-18th century American thinkers.

    Marx and Locke cannot be compared. Most of the modernist thinkers you listed devalued reason and the individual, which goes directly against the premises behind the Enlightenment (reason and the value of the individual).

    The United States was founded on some of the values left by the Enlightenment. The US was definitely not founded under Kantian, Neitzschen or Marxist values.

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    Sparkling Chocobo
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    1) Nietzsche was not nihilist. The very crux of his philosophy is the overcoming of nihilism: the nihilistic "will to nothingness" is the antithesis of his idea of the "will to power".

    2) Putting Nietzsche in the that sentence with Marx and Kant (especially Kant) means that you deserve to be smacked. He valued individualism above all else.

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    Shlup's Retired Pimp Recognized Member Raistlin's Avatar
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    Nietzsche actually had some of the main values Kant did, though admittedly some different conclusions.

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    Sparkling Chocobo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raistlin
    Nietzsche actually had some of the main values Kant did, though admittedly some different conclusions.
    Such as what? Kant's Categorical Imperative, for example, is fundamentally opposed to the very basis of Nietzschean thought: Nietzsche himself spends considerably time deconstructing the basis of Kant's arguments.

    As for conclusions, they are very different (read: antithetical).

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