Quote Originally Posted by Cloud No.9
tell that to the men in quantanamo. those arrested in pakistan. not on the battlefield. tell that to cat stevens. yeah american intelligence.........

and torture is something the american army has taken much pleasure in. throughout modern history that has been shown. bush has ljust legalized it.

it's never been about questions. tell that to the veterans of the rhineland camps, tell that to the people in vietnam, cambodia, korea, tell it to the released from camp x-ray. tell it to lindy englands victims that torture is only used when necessary. that the us can be trusted when it comes to anyone's human rights. it's a total and absolute failure when it comes down to the fundamental rights of man.

what use is guantanamo if it is only used for necessary intelligence? how much intellegence did abu gahrib bring? how much use was the man boiled to death in uzbekistan? was thr intelligence good from the men sent out to egypt, lybia, syria and sudi arabia?

there are people held in quantanamo now for 4 years. a blind cripple and children among them. people not picked up on a battlefield, people taken from their homes in pakistan. these people are subjected daily to inhuman and degrading treatment. 4 years of it. with no representation under law. a total breach of every article before.
Can you prove to me that people are doing this for fun?

Can you prove we've never gotten useable intelligence from Abu Graib? Do you honestly think that they'd tell you if they did? That would negate the value of the intelligence that they were gathering. That would tell them straight up if a person gets captured, change the plans, because he'll be tortured into telling the Americans. So rather than tip off the enemy by saying so on CNN, they would probably tend to be rather quiet about the value of the intelligence.

And again, I'm not asking you to spam pictures of Abu Graib, or news articles about Abu Graib/Gitmo, I asked for a professional interrigator that says torture doesn't get the intelligence they need, or a general in the armed services of the US that says torture isn't necessary. I'll assume that the pictures you're posting mean that you can't find such an article.

but we continue allow this. people are here saying it is good. people are fighting for it right now. the right to inhumanity. the great american dream? is this the america we want?

the ticking bomb scenario does not exist. and if it did you have to apply serious pressure that compared to our uzbek friends previously or that of the argentinian man i showed earlier. and for what?

history judges all of us. and it is not as some people think dictated by the winners. that is in the short term. so when the history books are being written how will modern america be remembered? as a moral country on willing to fall to the level of it's enemies? so just and right that it would do everything to up hold the rights of man. or will it be remembered as another aggressive abusive country? one prepared to drop to the lowest possible level to acheive victory? a country guilty of systematic torture in the long and short term. a country that broke every single rule laid down in order to gain the advantage? no better than the rest of similar regimes?

at that time will people still be able to say god bless america?

First off, what is this "we" jazz? You're Scottish, not American. There is no "we" unless you've somehow managed to become an American since the last time we debated this. So to be frank and honest, you don't get to decide what America will be like in ten years.

And I don't know how you've come to the conclusion that there has never been, nor will there ever be, a ticking bomb scenario. That seems to be something else that the intelligence people would tend to keep quiet, rather than tip off the plotters, who would change their plans so as not to get caught.

As to the History Books -- who cares. That's about 8th or 9th in priorities.

Just so we're on the same page, here's the list.

1. Human Lives. Saving the most human lives possible is the most ethical thing you can do.
2. Safety of said human lives, so as people aren't in danger of dying.
3. Human dignity. People shouldn't be mistreated etc. They should have the basics of life etc.
4. Private property.
5. Rule of Law.
6. Serving the will of my own people.
7. Diplomatic stuff. Getting along with the world.
8. The way history will view my actions.

That's how I see things. I'm not going to worry about the stuff like diplomacy or the "history book" unless I can do so while taking care of all the things ahead of it on the list. If no one is still alive, then what use is a history book? Or having Europe love us? Or having high approval numbers? Now if it were possible to have everything on that list, I'd do it in a minute. But one of the funny things about life is that you can't get everything you want. So all things being equal, I'd rather have more lives saved.

We aren't fighting for the "right to inhumanity", we're trying to stabilize a country on the brink of civil war, where any Iraqi at any time can be blown up at the moment. And for the record, the northern Kurds are more brutal with the insurgency than we are. They don't arrest insurgents in Kurdistan, they execute them.