why torture doesn't work a historical point of view. guy fawkes was captured on the 5th of november trying to blow up the houses of parliament he was found in the basement sorrunded by gun powder. no confession was needed.

what was needed were the name of his conspirators what we could class today as terrorists. roaming the streets and had just tried to blow up the king. dangerous people in deed. of high worth like any al qaeda terrorist.

so using medieval torture methods how long did it take for mr fawkes to submit? 1 hour? 6hours? a day? more than enough time for any bomb to detonate. he infact lasted a few days after being tortured by permission from the king. it was of course dangerous times there had just been a catholic plot to kill the king and they were men still capaable of doing it on the streets who knew what they were capable or had planned? but it still took days for guy fawkes to submit.

most bombs go off within about 3 hours of being planted. ambushes the same. bombs do not rest over night neither do people in ambush. you need to be pretty damn hard with what you do in order to gain information from arrest to 3 hours time. you need to be considerably harder than the medieval tactics used on guy fawkes.

you're going to need to smash some legs and use some very hot liquid to move that fast. is that the level america is at?

and that is proof that they are doing it for fun. aside from the smile on lindy england's face. it doesn't work. what was the purpose of the rhinemeadows? information? or a sick pleasure in human suffering? if it doesn't work there is one reason for it. mengel probably felt the same unless of course you belief he was doing it for science.

and the we was as a human being and member of the western world. and if the world is pushed hard enough "we" maybe the ones to decide america's future in the next 10 years.

the ticking bomb scenario doesn't work because of the amount of time given. a large scale heavily planned attack like 9-11 that takes years to plan and buidl up may be foiled. but not a road side bomb just planted on the streets of bagdhad. the ira bombs went off within less than 3 hours of being planted. you don't want to leave bombs lying around. they have a habit of being found. the best bet is to detonate them early. suicide bombers don't even need to plant bombs. you need to catch him between leaving his home and his target. you need to be pretty damn quick with the man you are torturing. better for the hammers and saws out for that then.

and torture breaks 3,5,6,7,8 anyway. i would have loved to see lindy england tried under geneva. and for real kicks i would have done it at nuremburg. or in between milosevic's trials at the hague. becuase she is no better than them. no torturer is.

a quote direct from article 17 of the geneva convention relating to captivity of pow's is "No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to any unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind."

and there gnostic yevon you have your view. not that it doesn't work. because guy fawk'es did confess after all. but that it is simply not allowed.

article 3 says much the same.

"To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;"

but did guy fawke's submit in time to give any promise to the idea of the ticking bomb scenario? no. do we really believe that so many witches were killing harvests, children, animals and flying around on brooms? they confessed to it. willing to die one of the most painful deaths.

and the reason why you need dimplomacy is because it decides if you live or die. want to know why attacks in iraq went up after abu gahrib? because people don't like the idea. it doesn't save lives in that way. it makes alot of people very angry and willing to take very bloody vengence.

and that is why it is also a failure. it doesn't give good information, it's frankly slow even if it did, and it makes the world hate you and that is going to cost more lives at the end of the day.

and if it doesn't work it's for one purpose. the same reason mengel did it. not for science, not for humanity. but because he was a sick little bastard.