Quote Originally Posted by shun
"No you don't go and grab a random innocent to torture. But if you catch a battlefield participant that has a good chance of knowing when that next attack will happen, well that is when torture may be a viable option."
Quote Originally Posted by cloud
tell that to the folks in guantanamo arrested in pakistan.
you do realize that I was inferring to the 'right' way to use it, do you not?

I will not argue if it is wrong if you just grab random people, because I am sure all(or most of all of us) would aggree that it is wrong.


And cloud I have yet to see you point out HOW torture can not be used as a tool in the process of selfdefense. The definitions do not deny it in anyway I can see. Recall in whether or not it can or can't be used in selfdefense, we are not arguing right or wrong. Just whether or not torture can fall under one of the possible tools of the word selfdefense. And I still have yet to see that.

Also bear in mind that any form of selfdefense is almost always pre-emptive.
Quote Originally Posted by dictionary.com
pre·emp·tive or pre-emp·tive Audio pronunciation of "pre-emptive" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-mptv)
adj.

1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of preemption.
2. Having or granted by the right of preemption.
3.
1. Relating to or constituting a military strike made so as to gain the advantage when an enemy strike is believed to be imminent: a preemptive nuclear attack.
2. Undertaken or initiated to deter or prevent an anticipated, usually unpleasant situation or occurrence: The two companies organized a preemptive alliance against a possible takeover by another firm.
4. Having or marked by the power to preempt or take precedence: a preemptive business offer; preemptive authority.
5. Games. Relating to or being a bid in bridge at a high level that is intended to interfere with the opponents' bidding.
hmm... Selfdefense when someone tries to kill you is to kill or disable them before they succeed, correct? That means you pre-emptively sturck BEFORE they killed you. Quite obvious to me that selfdefense is a pre-emptive action.

Quote Originally Posted by cloud
at the end of the day torture doesn't work. an example. the french war in algiers.

the french used very harsh methods of torture leading up to the battle of algiers. they got a lot of reportedly good intellligence (it is very debatable) and they won the battle. but after the victory the algerian people were very unhappy with the french. and got even more angry than they were before and by being extremely vicious after this through sheer anger they through the french out. they killed many french in the process.
Doesn't the part in bold say that it was at least possible that it was successful? Now that that is out. I will say this, yes it doesn't make you many freinds. However, if we were able to make freinds(at that time) with them we likely wouldn't be at war to begin with.



And ed does raise a very good point. Laws are useless if no one enforces them.

also cloud it is was already mentioned why you will not find much info either way on it. Due to the fact that they do not want our enemies to know how effective it is(if at all). this way they may risk an attack if they suspect we do have someone captured.

Also cloud there are degrees of torture. I may twist the guys arm a bit if I believe my family is in immediate danger. And I would threaten him. But I probably wouldn't use any of the nasty forms of torture. Oh yes, and please remember being vigilante isn't neccesarily a bad thing, though it does carry a bad connotation. Vigilante is anyone who takes law enforcement into thier own hands. Judges and cops to an extent can be considered vigilante. Anyone who aides someone in danger by kiling a murder who is going to kill another(at the moment) is a vigilante, etc.