"I'm just glad there are real brave men and women out there who actually CARE about other people, their security, well-being and their lives." i'm not glad iraq is now full of torturers no different from the ones we ousted.

the thing gnostic yevon torture is a crime like no other (except genocide). a crimw with no justifiable reason. inside or outside war. war crimes themselves in any case have no justifiable reason. torture though can be performed outside war (just a side note). and it is excluded from the self defence law in the same way killing civillians and genocide is.

there are different rules to break within geneva. each carrying it's own punishment as you rightly pointed out. you would not be treated the same way as uday hussien. but uday hussein should be treated like mengel should have been and lindy england should have been.

and at the end of the day there is no self defence rule. it cannot and will not work. it can take days to break a person done. even with the most extreme methods. that is not enough time to do anything. and provides dross for intelligence. history shows us this. it is undenible how long torture takes to take effect and how stupid the intelligence it brings. to argue otherwise is to deny historic fact.

it does not work.

and that is why it is unjustifiable. because it is useless as well as stupidly immoral.

torture is an unjustifiablke act. and yes maybe if it did work it would save lives. but at the end of the day what are we fighting for? if we were fighting to save lives we would have never invaded iraq. we fought for justice and freedom. and we are failing on the very basis for what we are there for. and that is why they hate us. that is why they will blow up us servicemen is the street. because we use medieval methods which we promised to free them from.

at least then they and the rest of the world knew it was wrong. now america has the cheek to justify it and say it is alright for them to do it but noone else.

"Just like any other crime." but it's not just any other crime. it is the second greatest crime. it is above murder and rape. it is below genocide and that is all. a crime for which no exception can be made. a crime that doesn't work for intelligence, deterance or any other reason except sadism. personally if america sees fit to holds
the death sentence i would have hung everyone responsible in abu gharib. it's a crime not done in anger, rage, for reason. it is done in the same vain as rape (they did that as well though) for out of boredom. it was done for enjoyment. to watch the faces of the men, women and children they abused there. why they kicked the men to death in baghram. while they let a man catch hypothermia in the salt pit. it was fun to them.

they had a man's life in their hands. could do whatever they wanted. and choose to abuse that. it was not done to gain intelligence. it was for a sick pleasure i can't and don't wish to understand.

look at the mentality that has been shown of some american soldiers. posting pictures of dismembered bodies. reveling in the destruction of humanity. and these are the people we trust to rob a man of dignity and put him through unbearable pain?

and to what point? to make people angry at us they do what we are trying in vain to stop? to gain dross for intelligence? to give further ground for dehumanisation? to allow our soliders to be targets for everyone? so the rest of the world can ask why we let america continue?

and yes people will die for morality. they always have. that is what we fight and die for. to not be our enemy. turn the other cheek.