after being disturbed while first writing this it seems it won't be as good a post as it was before.

9-11 was a long planned event. such events are the ones that are being investigated in guantanamo. guantanamo is an outright failure. we know the kind of information coming out of there. the false confessions. the men claiming to be and have met bin laden. and we plan to base a war on this?

and it doesn't work for the short term.

"And just cause you use similar methods as ones foe does not make one one's foe." this would be true if lindy england wasn't smiling as much as mengel and uday.

and yes certain versions of torture are different. but they are the same crime and will be tried the same. the same rules apply of being unjustifiable. the sentence may be more leniant. but at the end of the day you will still be a war criminal. and american troops do beat men to death and use barbaric torture methods anyway.

"You keep stating as a fact that torture couldn't work. I'm still waiting for documentation." actually the kubark manual itslef states it doesn't work. generals and experts stating for or against torture are hard to find. there is an intersting psychological study on orders and it's position in torture (the one were the person is told to electrocute the other for answering the questions wrong). but the kubaek manual states plainly that torture doesn't work.

bombins in iraq went up the days following the break of the abu gharib scandal. then on times folloiwng with release of mor pictures, the british scandal etc.

the smile on lindy englan's face said it all really. the thumbs up over dead iraqi's bodies. they were happy in what they were doing. it's plainly obvious. happy smiley people. happy in rape and torture.

and is torture these people morality? this is what they wanted to escape. i think returning to those days would be the last thing these people want.