My Thoughts on Advent Children

[Vaprice]

... babo....

xD

[Russielloyd]

Yes but the reviewer given the proper facts will know this apart of an on going story and would take that into consideration when reviewing the plot. Also though the reviewer would proberly point out how complex the story is for neww comers but at the same time would most deffinately point out, thats its a must see for all FF lovers.

EDIT: Vaprice, dont spam! its annoying and this is a good discusion here.

[Winter Nights]

And as I said, with the proper facts the movie does make sense. But, it's still a fault, nonetheless. A pretty big fault, at that. Most sequels don't leave non-fans confused the whole movie.

And the movie could have easily been made nonfan-friendly. What I said about the intro is still intact. It gave a lot of info, but most of it had nothing to do with the plot of the movie. Nonfans didn't didn't need the plot of FF7, anymore than fans did. A quick overview of Jenova and Sephroth, with some tidbits about the group that took them on would have sufficed. Jenova DEFINATELY needed more explanation. And hell, Aerith's death isn't needed as they talk about it so often in the movie. In fact, it would have been an advantage, as it would be like a reveal to nonfans, as to why Cloud is slow to react.

[Vaprice]

Yes but the reviewer given the proper facts will know this apart of an on going story and would take that into consideration when reviewing the plot. Also though the reviewer would proberly point out how complex the story is for neww comers but at the same time would most deffinately point out, thats its a must see for all FF lovers.

EDIT: Vaprice, dont spam! its annoying and this is a good discusion here.

I'm sorry if I have offended you russielloyd almighty god. But seriously it really kinda isn't. Everyone already knew that this movie wasn't supposed to have the best of everything. The fighting is all they really needed anyways. It was just another way to milk money from the viewers.

[Russielloyd]

And as I said, with the proper facts the movie does make sense. But, it's still a fault, nonetheless. A pretty big fault, at that. Most sequels don't leave non-fans confused the whole movie.

And the movie could have easily been made nonfan-friendly. What I said about the intro is still intact. It gave a lot of info, but most of it had nothing to do with the plot of the movie. Nonfans didn't didn't need the plot of FF7, anymore than fans did. A quick overview of Jenova and Sephroth, with some tidbits about the group that took them on would have sufficed. Jenova DEFINATELY needed more explanation. And hell, Aerith's death isn't needed as they talk about it so often in the movie. In fact, it would have been an advantage, as it would be like a reveal to nonfans, as to why Cloud is slow to react.

The movie does tell you what happened previously, but it does tell you why cloud has become a loner because of Aeris but someone writing a official review, who are the people you think are going to read it? FF fans of course and people (except Ishin Ookami) already know the plot. Bearing in mind the movie was only meant to originally be 20 mins long. They turned it into a feature lengh film for the fans, as the books are and the 3 other FF7 games are to be. Just to answer those questions people ask about various things that happened in FF7.

Best thing to say is if your a Final Fantasy fan and youve FF7 then watch thiis movie and if your not a Final Fantasy fan and havent played FF7, either dont bother or just watch it for the almost life-like graphics.

If someone doesnt get the AC story then thats not SE fault as the movie is not for that person. SE are not gonna care about people who dont like FF are they and if they watch or not.

Also FF games are always based on the story firstly, thats what counts, if all people want is all action, then they should watch DOOM or HALO, when they come out.

The fighting is all they really needed anyways. It was just another way to milk money from the viewers.

I enjoyed the movie, so they didnt milk any money out of me. And there going to need to make money arnt they, otherwise we know what happens...no more games, no more spending hourse on end learning another new story that people will argue over and get confused in the plot.

[Winter Nights]

I still maintain that "for the fans" films are not special and would be reviewed as a normal movie. You can expect that DVD sites will prolly review the US release and will prolly dock it for that. And as I said, they could have easily done that opening different. You don't have to tell what everyone else knows, just what they NEED to know.

Plus, given how much they don't say about what you need to know, there wasn't much of a story there, so that's not much of an argument either.

But, to each his own, I guess. Just got off work, so heading home. Out.

[Russielloyd]

We're yet to even play Before Crisis and Crisis Core which give even more detail on unexplained parts from FF7.

Anyways, me knowing all aspects of the story, i think its a good film and has a good story, the fights were good, specially the Buhamut scene and the cameos from the other characters, the only thing for me that i didnt like is that the movie moves on too fast. I agree with some people who said it could of been about 20 mins longer by dragging some of the scenes. I was happy with the ending, it was great way to end Clouds story, even though he does appear in DoC. Thats my opinion

[Ishin Ookami]

Yes but the reviewer given the proper facts will know this apart of an on going story and would take that into consideration when reviewing the plot. Also though the reviewer would proberly point out how complex the story is for neww comers but at the same time would most deffinately point out, thats its a must see for all FF lovers.

EDIT: Vaprice, dont spam! its annoying and this is a good discusion here.

Im glad i could stimulate some good discussion, thats really the point behind these forums.

It seems like there really are alot of FFVII fanboys here, okay lets talk some turkey then shall we.

Ive talked about how there is little to no technique used in the fight scenes, and clouds using limit breaks doesnt count. Let me make a good example of technique vs technique. In Return of the Dragon, in the Bruce Li Vs Chuck Norris fight, Bruce and Chuck both fight using traditional Kung fu techniques. Initially Chuck is shown as having superior power, and dominates the first half of the fight. This is until Bruce switches to a more tai chi chuan style fighting art, that is more fluid and based on quickness and fluidity rather then power. Chuck cant keep up with the unpredictable attacks, where one form can seguae into ten other possible forms of attack, and the speed of Bruces technique wears him down. THIS is one example of how to apply the use of real world fight techniques to a fight scene. Another example woudl come from Dragonball Z, In the initial fight against vegeta Goku is completely outmatched. It takes teamwork from the lesser remaining fighters, bluffing, guile, bravery, and sacrifice along with luck just to end the fight in a draw. But despite the chi blasts and morphing into giant apes, there is a logical progression to the fight as all combatants are pushed to their limits.

look for any of this in the fight sceens in AC, there isnt any. Cloud is whupped on for the first half the film, and the second half he is unbeatable despite being blasted by bahamut and stabbed by sephiroth. And sephs death was just stupid, Ignoring the lack of logic of how cloud would have the power to pull off that sort of attack in what is his sixth or seventh consecutive major battle that day with a stab wound through his chest, sephiroth doesnt so much die cuz cloud had the better skill or technique, he dies because he forgets how to duck! Yah, there's a memorable end. I half expected cloud to give off a hearty "meep meep" after using his new limit break.

Next lets talk about the geostigma shall we, I believe one of my critics stated it as the crux of clouds relapse into depression. Ah yes, the vile and deadly affliction that is plauging all of midgar if not the planet. I mean it has such vile simptoms of a vile dark rash, cramps, (in clouds case) moodiness, bouts of nausea and fainting. Diabolical! Sephiroth has found a way to give all males on the planet a terminal case of PMS!

The geostigma was just another flaw in a script with all too many flaws as it is. Noone died from it, the most we ever saw was someone fainting from it. It was a plot device and a rather lame one at that.

Now Im going to wax critical about the plot again. Another critique or reply from a critic was that Kadajs two brothers were simply henchmen, which incorrect. They were just as equally jenova's children as kadaj was. Which is why it would be nice if they had a purpose to the script, or if square had gone the route of putting a portion of sephs conciousness in all three. That sort of plot device is a gold mine of possibilities, as it would give a chance to show sephs better half. Maybe there was a side of sephs personality that didnt want to kill aeries, seeing as she was sort of a thrice removed sister to him, and It would have been nice to see one of the seph clones bitching or hating the other two because they were the ones that shafted her. Or maybe seeing cloud beaten an inch of his life and saved by one of them because they carry the piece of sephs conciousness that once considered him a friend and has long felt guilty about the betrayal. Ive been thinking of this plot idea for the better part of a few hours as of posting this, imagine what a team of writers could have done with this idea if that team had existed, rather then nomura deciding he's just going to include as much FFVII fan service as possible instead of trying to write a good story. And its not like there wasnt room for more character development. Axe the lame subplot with the kamikaze zombie ninja commando 8 year olds, as well as the ten minute recap and you got over 30 minutes to include some character development. Hell, I would have settled with instead of spending ten minutes giving the fanboys warm fuzzies with the recap from the game, how bout spending that time telling us what all the main players have been doing since. Imagine Yuffie splitting her schedule between teaching at a new dojo at her village and materia hunting, or Cait Sith and Red XIII having an act at the golden saucer thus explaining just why Red gives cait piggy back rides these days. How bout showing cid's wife/girlfriend fussing about how he's hard at work on a new project that he wont tell her about, only to have her at the helm of the new airship when he shows up? I mean c'mon character flashbacks are nice, Character development is better. I recently purchased and viewed the sixth season of cheers last week, and If I could make notes on the character development of the less numerous cast of cheers in the first episode of season six, and the large cast of FFVII in the entire film of Advent children, Cheer's crib sheet would be the larger by far. There wasnt any development whatsoever in anyone besides vincent taking the lead and the turks becoming heroic backup. Maybe the majority of people here are so blinded by flashy CGI that they dont notice the sincere lack of a plot or character development, but as a person that preferred Dragon quest VII over Final Fantasy VII for alot of reasons, I can honestly say while the production values were impressive, I was not so impressed I failed to note the lame plot of the film.

Also a note to the fanboys trying to hate on me for bashing the film, look kids (and dont think I cant tell how old some people are here because no self respecting adult verbally attacks another person because they dont like their form of entertainment) you got a problem with my opinion, state yours and try to make a good argument. Thats the best way to put me to shame. My original post wasnt called "A review of Advent Children", thats posted over on gameinformer.com. It was called "My thoughts on Advent Children". This is a rant, and despite the more emotionally charged tone then a review should have, Id like to think my points were very solid.

Oh yah, and before I close off. Please exscuse if some spelling mistakes slip past. I often post in a rush and the spell checker on my computer is jacked for some reason, will have to reinstall it.

[Russielloyd]

Im glad i could stimulate some good discussion, thats really the point behind these forums.

It seems like there really are alot of FFVII fanboys here, okay lets talk some turkey then shall we.

I hate when people go on calling people fanboys or girls just because they like it and disagree with people who do like it. its annoying.

Ive talked about how there is little to no technique used in the fight scenes, and clouds using limit breaks doesnt count. Let me make a good example of technique vs technique. In Return of the Dragon, in the Bruce Li Vs Chuck Norris fight, Bruce and Chuck both fight using traditional Kung fu techniques. Initially Chuck is shown as having superior power, and dominates the first half of the fight. This is until Bruce switches to a more tai chi chuan style fighting art, that is more fluid and based on quickness and fluidity rather then power. Chuck cant keep up with the unpredictable attacks, where one form can seguae into ten other possible forms of attack, and the speed of Bruces technique wears him down. THIS is one example of how to apply the use of real world fight techniques to a fight scene. Another example woudl come from Dragonball Z, In the initial fight against vegeta Goku is completely outmatched. It takes teamwork from the lesser remaining fighters, bluffing, guile, bravery, and sacrifice along with luck just to end the fight in a draw. But despite the chi blasts and morphing into giant apes, there is a logical progression to the fight as all combatants are pushed to their limits.

Its been years since ive watch Bruce Lee and ive never watch Dragon Ball Z, so i cant posssible comment on those two, though how many techiniques are there when using a sword?

Cloud is whupped on for the first half the film, and the second half he is unbeatable despite being blasted by bahamut and stabbed by sephiroth. And sephs death was just stupid, Ignoring the lack of logic of how cloud would have the power to pull off that sort of attack in what is his sixth or seventh consecutive major battle that day with a stab wound through his chest, sephiroth doesnt so much die cuz cloud had the better skill or technique, he dies because he forgets how to duck! Yah, there's a memorable end. I half expected cloud to give off a hearty "meep meep" after using his new limit break.

This has already been said to you by "Masamune 1600" on several occaisions, or did you not bother to read his post? From up intill the battle in the Forgotten Forest, Cloud is burdened from how he couldnt save Aeris or Zack from Death, then it was up untill Speaking with Vincent who said what Cloud needed to hear, then Cloud is out to prove himself and to be forgiven. A burden can cause alot of stress and the inability to concentrate and not being able to fight at his best.

Did you also forget that this is a fantasy as the name of the title sugest "Final FANTASY", fantasy being the key word here. The move is still based on the rules of a FF game. Clouds power and strength is beyond anyones and only matched by Sephiroth. Septhiroth even asks Cloud how he got so strong. Ribbons are in it, Materia of course is in it, even Buhamut is in it, so why cant limit breaks or Cloud being so damn strong be in it? Because its not logic. Somehow you forget, FANTASY defys logic.

If your saying all of this, then surely Buhamut digging in the ground looking for JENOVAS head is wrong because you cant make him do that in the game.

Next lets talk about the geostigma shall we, I believe one of my critics stated it as the crux of clouds relapse into depression. Ah yes, the vile and deadly affliction that is plauging all of midgar if not the planet. I mean it has such vile simptoms of a vile dark rash, cramps, (in clouds case) moodiness, bouts of nausea and fainting. Diabolical! Sephiroth has found a way to give all males on the planet a terminal case of PMS!

What are you talking about? The planet (not Sephiroth) gave people with the JENOVA cells "Geostigma" to kill them so the events in FF7 wouldnt happen again as the planet saw JENOVA as threat, which it is.

The geostigma was just another flaw in a script with all too many flaws as it is. Noone died from it, the most we ever saw was someone fainting from it. It was a plot device and a rather lame one at that.

People did die. AGAIN, read the novellas.

Now Im going to wax critical about the plot again. Another critique or reply from a critic was that Kadajs two brothers were simply henchmen, which incorrect. They were just as equally jenova's children as kadaj was. Which is why it would be nice if they had a purpose to the script, or if square had gone the route of putting a portion of sephs conciousness in all three. That sort of plot device is a gold mine of possibilities, as it would give a chance to show sephs better half. Maybe there was a side of sephs personality that didnt want to kill aeries, seeing as she was sort of a thrice removed sister to him, and It would have been nice to see one of the seph clones bitching or hating the other two because they were the ones that shafted her. Or maybe seeing cloud beaten an inch of his life and saved by one of them because they carry the piece of sephs conciousness that once considered him a friend and has long felt guilty about the betrayal. Ive been thinking of this plot idea for the better part of a few hours as of posting this, imagine what a team of writers could have done with this idea if that team had existed, rather then nomura deciding he's just going to include as much FFVII fan service as possible instead of trying to write a good story. And its not like there wasnt room for more character development. Axe the lame subplot with the kamikaze zombie ninja commando 8 year olds, as well as the ten minute recap and you got over 30 minutes to include some character development. Hell, I would have settled with instead of spending ten minutes giving the fanboys warm fuzzies with the recap from the game, how bout spending that time telling us what all the main players have been doing since. Imagine Yuffie splitting her schedule between teaching at a new dojo at her village and materia hunting, or Cait Sith and Red XIII having an act at the golden saucer thus explaining just why Red gives cait piggy back rides these days. How bout showing cid's wife/girlfriend fussing about how he's hard at work on a new project that he wont tell her about, only to have her at the helm of the new airship when he shows up? I mean c'mon character flashbacks are nice, Character development is better. I recently purchased and viewed the sixth season of cheers last week, and If I could make notes on the character development of the less numerous cast of cheers in the first episode of season six, and the large cast of FFVII in the entire film of Advent children, Cheer's crib sheet would be the larger by far. There wasnt any development whatsoever in anyone besides vincent taking the lead and the turks becoming heroic backup. Maybe the majority of people here are so blinded by flashy CGI that they dont notice the sincere lack of a plot or character development, but as a person that preferred Dragon quest VII over Final Fantasy VII for alot of reasons, I can honestly say while the production values were impressive, I was not so impressed I failed to note the lame plot of the film.

What the hell are you talking? Kadaj and his gang are Sephiroth spilt into 3 (as you might say) with JENOVAs will. The reason theres no develpment in those characters because we already know them, plus its not their story, its all about Cloud or did you not notice that whem watching the film

Also a note to the fanboys trying to hate on me for bashing the film, look kids (and dont think I cant tell how old some people are here because no self respecting adult verbally attacks another person because they dont like their form of entertainment) you got a problem with my opinion, state yours and try to make a good argument. Thats the best way to put me to shame. My original post wasnt called "A review of Advent Children", thats posted over on gameinformer.com. It was called "My thoughts on Advent Children". This is a rant, and despite the more emotionally charged tone then a review should have, Id like to think my points were very solid.

The only way you can call this a review, is if you got your story right. You just wrote all this, when "Masamunes 1600'" explains all your inacuracies, which it look obvious you didnt read.

Your the bashing events in the movie that you clearly have no idea why it happens, when its obvious to see why and how it happens.

If you really like an play FF, then you should know on sidequests on the game reveals even more of the story. You give me the impression, that someone told you what happened in FF7 and that person had no clue as to what the story was about either. If you came back after playing FF7 and watching AC and then gave a review on genuine faults, then i respect it, but clearly you no hardly any of the story and why things happen for a certain reason, therefore i take your review as joke. Ill let the things that you dont know what happened in the 2 years between FFF7 and AC slide. just read them OK?

Also, if you didnt like FF7, then why the smurf did you watch AC for then? If you dont get what happens in the game, then your gonna be clueless watching the movie. Also noone would be so hateful if you got your facts write, its just obvious you didnt pay attention to FF7, AC or what people have been saying on here and being stubborn about it. If you was Johnathan Ross who knows nothing about FF then ok but your suppost to a be a big fan, being on these forums and all.

Take in what everyone has said, mainly "Masamune 1600", watch the film, when you get confused about something, just reffer past to his post.

If there anything your not sure on or why certain things can happen, just ask, everyone else does. I did and now i know. Masamune is normally the one to talk to about it.


My god, the letters on my keyboard are fading from so much typing. This is the most ive ever typed in a single message, someone give me an award!

[Neco Arc]

the morale of the stories kids: is to read...

[Masamune·1600]

You still haven't reconciled your misconceptions regarding the plot.

Ive talked about how there is little to no technique used in the fight scenes, and clouds using limit breaks doesnt count. Let me make a good example of technique vs technique. In Return of the Dragon, in the Bruce Li Vs Chuck Norris fight, Bruce and Chuck both fight using traditional Kung fu techniques. Initially Chuck is shown as having superior power, and dominates the first half of the fight. This is until Bruce switches to a more tai chi chuan style fighting art, that is more fluid and based on quickness and fluidity rather then power. Chuck cant keep up with the unpredictable attacks, where one form can seguae into ten other possible forms of attack, and the speed of Bruces technique wears him down. THIS is one example of how to apply the use of real world fight techniques to a fight scene. Another example woudl come from Dragonball Z, In the initial fight against vegeta Goku is completely outmatched. It takes teamwork from the lesser remaining fighters, bluffing, guile, bravery, and sacrifice along with luck just to end the fight in a draw. But despite the chi blasts and morphing into giant apes, there is a logical progression to the fight as all combatants are pushed to their limits.

Please refer to my response to your next paragraph; Cloud's results in battle arise from profoundly different internal conditions each time he fights. This would actually seem to be much deeper than utilizing a different fighting style.

As to using Dragonball Z as an example, your use of the word "sacrifice" is strange. I admit to being no expert on the series, but it's my impression that characters in the mythos are repeatedly resurrected, regardless of the events of a prior episode. Really, if they knew they were going to be resurrected, I know people who would die to help a friend win a five dollar bet. Advent Children, however, is bound to an immutable continuity; when the party members worked together in the battle against Bahamut TREMOR, they knew that death was a distinct and real possibility. This would seem to suggest to me a much more profound type of battle. Even if the DZ characters aren't aware of impending resurrection, the mere shattered continuity reduces any real significance in the eyes of the discerning viewer.

look for any of this in the fight sceens in AC, there isnt any. Cloud is whupped on for the first half the film, and the second half he is unbeatable despite being blasted by bahamut and stabbed by sephiroth. And sephs death was just stupid, Ignoring the lack of logic of how cloud would have the power to pull off that sort of attack in what is his sixth or seventh consecutive major battle that day with a stab wound through his chest, sephiroth doesnt so much die cuz cloud had the better skill or technique, he dies because he forgets how to duck! Yah, there's a memorable end. I half expected cloud to give off a hearty "meep meep" after using his new limit break.

Again, you've completely failed to take into account the inherent mythology of Gaia. Gaians are, according to Bugenhagen in FFVII, endowed with Spirit Energy. Given the incredible physical feats that Cloud is able to accomplish in AC, combined with the fact that Limit Breaks are most likely an expression of said Spirit Energy, Cloud's inherent "Spirit" is the primary explanation for his otherworldly strength, speed, and stamina. Given that we have no quantifiable equivalent of Spirit Energy in the real world, comparisons regarding matters such as stamina immeidately ring false.

Beyond that, however, you ignore several obvious changes in the situations in which Cloud fights. During his first battle, Cloud has no real desire to even fight. As Tifa tells Marlene in the church, she doesn't even believe Cloud plans on fighting his Geostigma (which, given that its definition involves extreme fatigue, would certainly detract from his fighting ability). During his second battle, at the Forgotten City, Cloud has determined to at least attempt to save the children. However, the burden of guilt still weighs heavily upon him. The visitation by Aeris immediately prior to his reaching the city demonstrates that. Here, Cloud's combat is at an altogether different level than the original bike battle; he wields two swords at once, successfully fends off both Loz and Yazoo, blocks bullets, and even utilizes Blade Beam to counter Loz's "localized earthquake."

Nevertheless, the rigors of Geostigma, combined with his own guilt (and, by extension, doubt), lead Cloud to fall. After being rescued by Vincent, Cloud's lines regarding not being able to save anyone are very telling. However, after deciding to try to expiate his "sins" (which, really, aren't sins), Cloud's enormous burden of guilt is lifted, allowing him to fight with an intensity not yet seen. After making this revelation to Tifa upon returning to Edge, Cloud is able to easily deal with Bahamut TREMOR.

As to his ability to jump through Bahamut TREMOR's [Mega] Flare, one must remember that Cloud is possessed of inordinately powerful Spirit Energy (the combined result of his simply having a powerful "Spirit," his Mako infusion, and his time spent in the Lifestream). For the other character, the Flare is something to be avoided; in their cases, it would likely result in instant death. Also note that Cloud's Spirit is reinforced by Aeris as he jumps through, as the power of the blast begins to visually take a toll (the appearance of the cut).

Kadaj, however, recovers the "head of JENOVA," and runs off with it. This induces another bike scene, a chase in which Cloud defeats both Loz and Yazoo. Much of this can be attributed to Cloud's more lucid and focused state of mind; note also, however, that it was not exactly a fight that ended after five seconds. The battle was somewhat protracted, but with Cloud fully intent on winning, he does just that.

However, the other primary aspect of his limitations, Gesotigma, affects Cloud when he intercepts Kadaj, racking his body with pain and preventing him from defeating the leader of the SHM. However, thanks to the intervention of Aeris and the Lifestream, Cloud is cleansed of his Gesotigma. The pain and fatigue involved is eliminated, and Cloud is able to engage with recourse to the full extent of his abilities. Even Kadaj, the most powerful figure in the world of FFVII outside of Cloud and Sephiroth, has no hope of defeating this Cloud, the full Cloud. Outmatched, Kadaj ends up hanging from a ledge, with his Souba (the double sword) having fallen far below.

At this point, with no other real options, Kadaj plunges into the unknown and follows his instinctual desire to merge with the cells of JENOVA. This, then, allows Sephiroth to again manifest his physical self on Gaia. Now, as powerful as Kadaj was, he doesn't have even a fraction of the power of Sephiroth. In this battle, in spite of Cloud's determination, Sephiroth remains (almost) entirely on the offensive. Further, unlike Cloud, Sephiroth can fly (Cloud can merely make superhuman leaps), which is both an advantage in the battle itself, and in maintaining the offensive. It also allows Seph to wear Cloud down to some extent. Ultimately, when Cloud slows down for a moment, Sephiroth is able to exploit the opening and stab Cloud through the shoulder. However, Sephiroth proceeds to cruelly mock everything that matters to Cloud, whether living or dead. Cloud then reveals the answer to the question originally posited in the first real trailer: it isn't merely for the children, or a memory, or himself. Everything is important to him, something Sephiroth cannot understand. At this, a coldly determined Cloud launches into Omnislash Version 5, an attack that, for all real purposes, cannot miss.

Thus, your entire quoted paragraph suffers from a continued lack of understanding. Cloud's "situation" clearly changes every fight. This explains the different results of battle, and also seems to tie in with your desire for "logic" in battle, except on a much deeper level. Also, your "blasted by Bahamut, stabbed by Sephiroth" argument bears no weight; you fail to consider the fact that Cloud is intrinsically prepared to deal with such a magical blast, and that he was aided as he moved through it. As to Sephiroth--well, Cloud never suffers a "stab wound through the chest." The blade clearly pierces his shoulder. In any case, Cloud's unique combination of Spirit Energy and personal emotion is obviously sufficient to overcome any adverse effects presented by the wound. As to the question of fatigue, Cloud obviously does tire toward the end of his climactic and apocalyptic duel with Sephiroth. However, bound up in what's really his soul, and particularly empowered by emotion, Cloud is able to execute an ability that is effectively an expression of Spirit Energy, a "substance" that obviously moves outside Cloud's fatigue. Finally, Sephiroth did not "forget how to duck." Given that Sephiroth appears to be the faster of the two combatants, despite Cloud's being fast enough to block bullets and react to Loz's flashes, he is unable even to react to Omnislash Version 5. Also note how Sephiroth remains suspended in midair, as do Cloud's swords. Neither Sephiroth nor the swords even begin to fall. Combined with Seph's own incredible speed, and lack of fatigue, we must conclude that Omnislash Version 5 took place at near instantaneous speed. Seph, like anything else on Gaia, would have had no way to possibly react to the attack.

As you can hopefully see, all of your criticisms here are grounded in a profound misunderstanding and unwillingness to consider the events of AC logically. You don't really have anything here.

Next lets talk about the geostigma shall we, I believe one of my critics stated it as the crux of clouds relapse into depression. Ah yes, the vile and deadly affliction that is plauging all of midgar if not the planet. I mean it has such vile simptoms of a vile dark rash, cramps, (in clouds case) moodiness, bouts of nausea and fainting. Diabolical! Sephiroth has found a way to give all males on the planet a terminal case of PMS!

The geostigma was just another flaw in a script with all too many flaws as it is. Noone died from it, the most we ever saw was someone fainting from it. It was a plot device and a rather lame one at that.

Again, you've completely missed the thrust of the plot. Cloud's Geostigma was only a secondary reason for his morose, gloomy behavior; the obvious and primary (and explicitly stated) reason is the burden of guilt he carries.

As to the matter of "[nobody] d[ying] from [Geostigma]," you're again off the mark. Given that the movie explicitly states that there is no cure, that Cloud doesn't know how long he will live, that Marlene begs that Denzel not be taken away, and the entire matter of the Negative Lifestream (the result of the contaminated Spirit Energy from people who have died from Geostigma), it's enormously obvious that Geostigma is eventually and invariably fatal.

You might also consider reading, as I originally suggested, Kazushige Nojima's On the Way to a Smile. There, you will see several prominent characters, including Mrs. Levy (Reeve's mother) and Gaskin, die from Geostigma.

Now Im going to wax critical about the plot again.

Of course you can't. I've already shown that you completely misunderstood almost everything that happened in the film, and there's no real way to defend your original arguments, as they're incorrect.

Another critique or reply from a critic was that Kadajs two brothers were simply henchmen, which incorrect. They were just as equally jenova's children as kadaj was. Which is why it would be nice if they had a purpose to the script, or if square had gone the route of putting a portion of sephs conciousness in all three.

Did you even read my post? All three SHM are Remnants of Sephiroth, meaning that they are aspects of his biological body, and his divided consciousness. Logically, with adequate JENOVA cells, any one of the three could have been used for Sephiroth's return. Given, however, that Kadaj is the leader, and the most like Sephiroth physically, it stands to reason that he would be the one ultimately used for the transformation.

Moreover, the matter of the SHM involves symbolic issues as well. The SHM were intended to reflect the Christian doctrine of the Holy Trinity, as the three of them were effectively one--Sephiroth. This also maintains the heavy use of religious symbolism throughout the movie, as well as in the original game.

That sort of plot device is a gold mine of possibilities, as it would give a chance to show sephs better half. Maybe there was a side of sephs personality that didnt want to kill aeries, seeing as she was sort of a thrice removed sister to him, and It would have been nice to see one of the seph clones bitching or hating the other two because they were the ones that shafted her.

Ignoring the fact that the SHM aren't Sephiroth Clones, and that calling them such makes no sense in light of the FFVII mythology, Sephiroth was intended to be evil, and malicious, and sadistic. He's the villain. His motivations are understandable, in light of everything that has happened to him (and given that he effectively fused with JENOVA while in the womb), but it doesn't justify his actions.

Oh, and Aeris wasn't "sort of a thrice removed little sister to him." Aeris was an Ancient; Sephiroth is derived from JENOVA, a mysterious extraterrestrial entity which nearly wiped out the Cetra. Not only are they unrelated, they're diametrically opposed.

Or maybe seeing cloud beaten an inch of his life and saved by one of them because they carry the piece of sephs conciousness that once considered him a friend and has long felt guilty about the betrayal. Ive been thinking of this plot idea for the better part of a few hours as of posting this, imagine what a team of writers could have done with this idea if that team had existed, rather then nomura deciding he's just going to include as much FFVII fan service as possible instead of trying to write a good story.

As to the game, by the way, Sephiroth never considered Cloud a friend. Until Cloud hurled him into the reactor, he probably didn't even notice him. Cloud, remember, was not a member of SOLDIER; the "Cloud" that interacted with Seph in the Kalm flashback was, effectively, Zack. I can understand that you disliked the original game, now, given that you missed the single most important plot point in the story.

Really, given what transpired, Sephiroth should have nothing but hate and resentment for Cloud.

Also, ignoring that you miss both the plot and symbolism in both the original game and Advent Children, Kazushige Nojima, not Tetsuya Nomura, was primarily responsible for the story of Advent Children. And, given that his story was based on what actually happened in FFVII, I'm inclined to prefer it to your take.

And its not like there wasnt room for more character development. Axe the lame subplot with the kamikaze zombie ninja commando 8 year olds, as well as the ten minute recap and you got over 30 minutes to include some character development.

I already explained the matter of the characters, as well as why your assessment of the children as "ninja commandos" is totally wrong. Please attempt to understand the story before continuing with this.

Hell, I would have settled with instead of spending ten minutes giving the fanboys warm fuzzies with the recap from the game, how bout spending that time telling us what all the main players have been doing since. Imagine Yuffie splitting her schedule between teaching at a new dojo at her village and materia hunting, or Cait Sith and Red XIII having an act at the golden saucer thus explaining just why Red gives cait piggy back rides these days. How bout showing cid's wife/girlfriend fussing about how he's hard at work on a new project that he wont tell her about, only to have her at the helm of the new airship when he shows up? I mean c'mon character flashbacks are nice, Character development is better. I recently purchased and viewed the sixth season of cheers last week, and If I could make notes on the character development of the less numerous cast of cheers in the first episode of season six, and the large cast of FFVII in the entire film of Advent children, Cheer's crib sheet would be the larger by far. There wasnt any development whatsoever in anyone besides vincent taking the lead and the turks becoming heroic backup. Maybe the majority of people here are so blinded by flashy CGI that they dont notice the sincere lack of a plot or character development, but as a person that preferred Dragon quest VII over Final Fantasy VII for alot of reasons, I can honestly say while the production values were impressive, I was not so impressed I failed to note the lame plot of the film.

Actually, you completely missed the plots of both AC, and the original game. I'm not going to recap your errors again; refer to my original post.

Also a note to the fanboys trying to hate on me for bashing the film, look kids (and dont think I cant tell how old some people are here because no self respecting adult verbally attacks another person because they dont like their form of entertainment) you got a problem with my opinion, state yours and try to make a good argument. Thats the best way to put me to shame.

While I generally despise "fanboyism" in general, I don't fault anyone who replied to your original post in such a manner, primarily because your own rhetoric was more vitriolic and erroneous than anything said in response. Also, your "opinions," as I showed, are firmly grounded in profound misconceptions.

I feel that I've personally presented a solid argument, although I don't see why a solid argument is needed when you yourself don't have one. You've presented, as you admit, a rant. There are going to be people who reply in kind.

My original post wasnt called "A review of Advent Children", thats posted over on gameinformer.com. It was called "My thoughts on Advent Children". This is a rant, and despite the more emotionally charged tone then a review should have, Id like to think my points were very solid.

I don't mean to be critical, but--they're not. Your points are generally based on a misunderstanding of what transpired, both in the original game and in the movie.

EDIT: Thanks for the vote of confidence, Russielloyd.

[Russielloyd]

Nice one Masamune 1600.

Ishin Ookami please dont come back reply with the same stuff, it'll be like your getting kicked while your still down on the ground. If you read the story or play the game again which makes you understand AC fbetter and you still have things that you dont like that makes sense to us all, then fair enough. Till then what you say is laughable and also (as they say in court) thrown out and to be disredarded.

EDIT: No prob, Masa.

[Ishin Ookami]

Its been years since ive watch Bruce Lee and ive never watch Dragon Ball Z, so i cant posssible comment on those two, though how many techiniques are there when using a sword?

Quite alot actually, I was going to write a huge disseration on various swords styles (I do study martial arts) but its enough to say that there are dozens, if not hundreads of schools out there with their own teachings and techniques on swordsmanship.

This has already been said to you by "Masamune 1600" on several occaisions, or did you not bother to read his post? From up intill the battle in the Forgotten Forest, Cloud is burdened from how he couldnt save Aeris or Zack from Death, then it was up untill Speaking with Vincent who said what Cloud needed to hear, then Cloud is out to prove himself and to be forgiven. A burden can cause alot of stress and the inability to concentrate and not being able to fight at his best.

Did you also forget that this is a fantasy as the name of the title sugest "Final FANTASY", fantasy being the key word here. The move is still based on the rules of a FF game. Clouds power and strength is beyond anyones and only matched by Sephiroth. Septhiroth even asks Cloud how he got so strong. Ribbons are in it, Materia of course is in it, even Buhamut is in it, so why cant limit breaks or Cloud being so damn strong be in it? Because its not logic. Somehow you forget, FANTASY defys logic.

If your saying all of this, then surely Buhamut digging in the ground looking for JENOVAS head is wrong because you cant make him do that in the game.

there have been dozens of replies and I am a busy person. I cant reply to everyone though I wish I could, the lesser well thought out replies though I tend to ignore but I will get to one of yours later on.

All vincent said to cloud was that he ought to test out whether forgiveness can be obtained, then all of a sudden cloud is busting out moves. All well and good but once again, there is little use of technique or counter attacking, taking advantage of an opponent who is loosing stamina or luring your opponent into openning his defence by tricking him into going all out and countering his carelessness. Its just alot of hopping, flying, and fancy camera tricks. I like my fantasy just fine, but even in the most fatastic novels there is some thread of logic or running princibles that cannot be ignored. Even in DragonBall Z, X, Ninja Scroll, and other anime AC drew upon for inspiration or the most ludicrous and unlikely feats of flying or leaping upon water or fighting with towels that wuxia is known for, there is a thread of logic. towels can be unflurreled and hit with deadly force because the wielder is injecting his chi, his sprit force into it and the spirit force is so strong it makes the towel very deadly (seen in iron monkey for refferrence). In crouching tiger or hero you see people leap from incredible distance in water, but this is actually done on the princible that combatants are using chi to create stepping stones. From a realistic point of view, it doesnt work. From a point of view of understanding the world that these people inhabit, it works fine. Ive played FFVII and as I remember cloud is like any other soldier member in the fact he was only injected with soldier cells. The possibility of the lifestream bestowing super human powers upon him is a possibility, but It wasnt mentioned in the film, or in the game. All he has is jenova cells in him which dozens of other people, including Vincent have. So if Aeries dies from a stabwound, or vincent died from getting shot, how come cloud survives that and worse? Bahamut blows up everything but the kitchen sink with his blasts, but cloud goes right through it like it was... well a cloud.

What are you talking about? The planet (not Sephiroth) gave people with the JENOVA cells "Geostigma" to kill them so the events in FF7 wouldnt happen again as the planet saw JENOVA as threat, which it is.

Nice dodge, but its not working. First of all your just trying to avoid talking about how lame the geostigma really was in the film. Second, vincent was saying something how the planet is infecting those with jenova cells, then seph shows up and claims responsibility which made alot more sense seeing as how the planet let the humans survive. and if the planet saw jenova as such a threat, how come it didnt go after jenova's neck when it sent the lifestream to take out meteor as well as letting the seph clones come back? and just incase you try to act all amnesia about what I said about the geostigma being lame, here's a reminder

Next lets talk about the geostigma shall we, I believe one of my critics stated it as the crux of clouds relapse into depression. Ah yes, the vile and deadly affliction that is plauging all of midgar if not the planet. I mean it has such vile simptoms of a vile dark rash, cramps, (in clouds case) moodiness, bouts of nausea and fainting. Diabolical! Sephiroth has found a way to give all males on the planet a terminal case of PMS!

The geostigma was just another flaw in a script with all too many flaws as it is. Noone died from it, the most we ever saw was someone fainting from it. It was a plot device and a rather lame one at that.

moving on

People did die. AGAIN, read the novellas.

Just to humor you, I did a search on google search. Points to you for being right on this one, but your still wrong. Square knows how powerful and effecting the medium of the cinema is, their ability to handle video game cinematics is the only thing keeping them in business right now. If they really wanted to make the Geostigma look nasty, they should have had people dying ON SCREEN! Or make the symptoms a bit more nastier in the film rather then just present the symptoms of a rather nasty bout of PMS. I was ranting on the movie, and pointing out its flaws. when I get around to reading the novella's I'll discuss them. but my opinion on the film and its handling of the geostigma reamains the same. It was a lame plot device that was little more then a rash. Clouds fighting abilities were not deminished in the least by it. and the fact that the novella's discuss it further does not dismiss how poorly it was handled in the film. there are numerous scenes that could have been cut or trimmed in favor of some grisley scenes of Geostigma mutilated patients in horrid agony. instead, we got males showing the aforementioned symptoms of PMS. lame.

What the hell are you talking? Kadaj and his gang are Sephiroth spilt into 3 (as you might say) with JENOVAs will. The reason theres no develpment in those characters because we already know them, plus its not their story, its all about Cloud or did you not notice that whem watching the film

Hey, Mr wizard? care to show me the scene in the film where kadaj or the other two flunkies got ANY kind of development? Or did that take place via novella as well? thats Advent Childrens problem, its pure fan service from the get go, leaving all major plot points to other sources. As for cloud, my problem from him stems from the fact I never did like bands like sum 41, creed, and other tween-angst fueled bands. Bands like that, and cloud in particular wear their angst in the same way I wear my best suit: As a fashion trend intended to draw a crowd. In the game Cloud had some serious issues, family and home town wiped out by his role model, he's showing signs of Disassociative Personality Disorder, Two major hotties like him for some inexplicable reason (ahem, sarcasm). Mans got damage. Yet the way he expresses it was so juvenile and poorly written. He's a twelve year old trying to comprehend some mature subject matter, and written with some VERY blatant plot contrivance. It sounds good on paper, and not so awful until you see how it was executed. Then the headaches start as you try to comprehend the logic of the man which is like trying to understand the nutrition located in a crispy kreame doughnut. Though I do give the doughnut points for being more charismatic.

The only way you can call this a review, is if you got your story right. You just wrote all this, when "Masamunes 1600'" explains all your inacuracies, which it look obvious you didnt read.

Ahem, let me review the statement you were replying too.

My original post wasnt called "A review of Advent Children",

Well, for once you agree with me. I dont call this a review either. lemme see where I put the title for this thread... I know its around here somewhere.... eureka! I found it.

My Thoughts on Advent Children

Hmmmmm, this is just a thesis, but as the title would indicate, this may be not so much a review is it could be a outpooring of thoughts and opinions.... backed up by explanations that you inexplicably ignore to satisfy your own predjudices, explanations such as...

This is a rant, and despite the more emotionally charged tone then a review should have...

So going by these statements, which you obviously ignore so you could vent your outrage at someone pointing at the holes of your sacred FFVII altar, this post is just an outpooring of opinion and observation, not a review. And FYI, within the same paragraph, it is stated my review is located on a seperate website. since you seem to abhor reading as much as your loathe writing, you probably havnt figured out where. which is probably all for the best.

If you really like an play FF, then you should know on sidequests on the game reveals even more of the story. You give me the impression, that someone told you what happened in FF7 and that person had no clue as to what the story was about either. If you came back after playing FF7 and watching AC and then gave a review on genuine faults, then i respect it, but clearly you no hardly any of the story and why things happen for a certain reason, therefore i take your review as joke. Ill let the things that you dont know what happened in the 2 years between FFF7 and AC slide. just read them OK?

as Ive already mentioned and addressed, I have indeed played FFVII and my points on its story stand. It was ridiculed in japan due to its lack of challenge and the story wasnt so much awful as it was redundant. This was from a company which not so long ago (in 1997)was rising to challenge Enix's reign as top RPG maker in japan, and now they released a game with little to no challenge and story and characters which were several notches below average. Just because you cant see past the cool FMV, dont try to invent conspiracy theories against those that can. I notice most of the critiques about the lameness of having the children in Advent Children turn into zombie, ninja kamikaze commando's or the lameness of geostigma you dodge by changing the topic or throwing accusations. "Did you actually read my post, or just have someone explain it to you". Incase you cant figure out the reason for the quotes, I was using irony to make my point. Dont throw accusations at someone just because you dont like what they have to say, and if you cant admit that the person has a valid point, and have to change the topic, then you really shouldnt post. I give you your props for mentioning the novellas, but that doesnt change the fact that AC features extremely below average story telling, it validates it. The fact that Square contracted actual writers to discuss the plot in other mediums while they make the film just shows how lame the story in AC really was, and validates my point of the film being less a film and more an exscuse for plenty of FFVII fan service.


The "Lifelike Animation" as you put it was poor at alot of points. the scenes with the major players "supposedly" moving at superhuman speeds looked like a poorly edited 1,000,000 dollar man episode. And lets not forget the gunguns had some lifelike animation as well, and we all know how well written and likeable they were.

Also, if you didnt like FF7, then why the smurf did you watch AC for then? If you dont get what happens in the game, then your gonna be clueless watching the movie. Also noone would be so hateful if you got your facts write, its just obvious you didnt pay attention to FF7, AC or what people have been saying on here and being stubborn about it. If you was Johnathan Ross who knows nothing about FF then ok but your suppost to a be a big fan, being on these forums and all.

Its late, so Im not going all the way back to the original post to quote myself again. Let me reiterate that I found FFVII to be a perfectly OK RPG. It was OK, I even mentioned that at times, I thought it was great. Let me repeat that since you seem not to comprehend something unless its repated. I thought it had some great moments But at the end it had alot of flaws, it was a lesser product compared to several 16-bit RPG's and 32-bit RPG's with lesser budgets. Ease up on the fanboy outrage for a moment and you might realise thats not an insult, just a fact. I was a sega fan back in the day, never touched a nintendo console until well after the end of the 16-bit generation, yet even back then I had no problem admitting that by all the info I could find, Final Fantasy VI was a better product then my favorite genesis RPG, Phantasy Star IV. And in my opinion I think PS4 was one hell of a game that I still bust out ten years later.

As to why I watched Advent Children, Im an open minded person and I thought I would give it a chance. And if you actually bothered to pay attention to my posts, I was entertained by the turks, Rufus, yuffie and vincent just slightly more then I was offended by all the awful writing and cloud relapsing and his affliction of male PMS. You should be thrilled that a critical mind can open up to the possibility that FFVII might be able to entertain if given a second chance, despite how thoroughly overrated I consider it.

Take in what everyone has said, mainly "Masamune 1600", watch the film, when you get confused about something, just reffer past to his post.

If there anything your not sure on or why certain things can happen, just ask, everyone else does. I did and now i know. Masamune is normally the one to talk to about it.

My apologies, its late, there are dozens of replies, and Its likely I wont have the time to sort through them all. would you or anyone else like to cut and paste?

My god, the letters on my keyboard are fading from so much typing. This is the most ive ever typed in a single message, someone give me an award!

I work in data entry, I write for a pan japanese/filipino magazine here in canada, and work part time as a tutor while studying to become a teacher. So guess what, typing alot is pretty much what I do. So no preaching to the choir now.

[Neco Arc]

Listen to the O' Mighty Masamune 1600 for he speaks the truth...

[Ishin Ookami]

Nice one Masamune 1600.

Ishin Ookami please dont come back reply with the same stuff, it'll be like your getting kicked while your still down on the ground. If you read the story or play the game again which makes you understand AC fbetter and you still have things that you dont like that makes sense to us all, then fair enough. Till then what you say is laughable and also (as they say in court) thrown out and to be disredarded.

EDIT: No prob, Masa.

meh, I ask for a review of masamunes comments, he does it for me before I even post. I like the service in this place. that and your comments actually were very well thought out, even if I respectfully disagree. But I dont have time for that now, Its late, I got a long saturday ahead. Im calling it a night. but I will get back to you later tomarrow masamune. A post that well thought out, if not misinformed, deserves a reply.

as for you, If you dont like what I got to say, you are free not to post in this thread anymore. Its not like you even bother to read through my threads thoroughly seeing as how often I have to repeat myself for your benefit.