My Thoughts on Advent Children

[Russielloyd]

Oh my goddess!! (Kelly Brook), "Masamune 1600" is going to have a field day.

I read all the post, im pointing the more important bits as to the lack of knowledge in FF7 and AC. Soldier cells...WTF?

Im tired and cant be othered to write anymore tonight but by the time i awake "Masamune 1600" would of replied and its safe to say hes got beatter knowledge and understanding to FF7 than i do and maybe he explain a bit better on what i said to the stuff you still disagree on.

[Russ80]

I agree with Ishin in that they certainly didn't explain things in the movie very well. Why would I want to go hunt down some novellas about a video game so that I can understand a movie sequel? If I wanted to do that, I'd buy some of that horrendous myriad of star wars books. Should I have to read "Rogue Squadron" to understand Revenge of the Sith? (Now yes, those aren't the same timeline, but that's certainly a famous one of the SW universe books, and if you like go find ones that are set before the trilogy)

What Masamune said was good too, but later on in the thread I don't think he understood what Ishin was saying. You responded to his "part of sephiroth wants to be friends" (and the other parts) comment very harshly. He was just bouncing ideas around, not saying that's what he thought AC actually was like. It seemed to me that you replied to him as if you thought he was saying that.

Anyway, carry on....

[Ishin Ookami]

What the hell, I got a fresh pack of ginsing tea on the shelf and protein bars in the fridge. I can make do with two hours sleep.

As to using Dragonball Z as an example, your use of the word "sacrifice" is strange. I admit to being no expert on the series, but it's my impression that characters in the mythos are repeatedly resurrected, regardless of the events of a prior episode. Really, if they knew they were going to be resurrected, I know people who would die to help a friend win a five dollar bet. Advent Children, however, is bound to an immutable continuity; when the party members worked together in the battle against Bahamut TREMOR, they knew that death was a distinct and real possibility. This would seem to suggest to me a much more profound type of battle. Even if the DZ characters aren't aware of impending resurrection, the mere shattered continuity reduces any real significance in the eyes of the discerning viewer.

You do have somewhat of a valid point, and I will give you props. Initially the princible was that the original dragonballs could not revive anyone more then once. Thus eliminating them as a deus ex machina plot deice that you are describing. Couple this with the fact that the majority of DBZ's heavy hitters got toasted by piccolo Daimyo (demon lord piccolo) in Dragon Ball and had to be resurrected initially meant that the heavy body count in the first few DBZ story arcs carried some heavy drama. Couple this with the fact that they were created by someone linked to piccolo, who had reformed and become a heroic character, and thus when piccolo died fighting vegeta it had alot of dramatic impact for Goku and co. The introduction of the namek dragon balls was irritating, yes. but the storyline itself was solid, with enough character development that the resurrection of the dragonballs, and continued deus ex machina style milking of them was... forgiveable. In much the same way I forgive the original Final Fantasy VII for not having much screen time for vincent, the androids and cell storylines ignored the Dragon balls for the most part, and focused on character growth, and the fact that Goku choose to remain dead at the end of the cell saga instead of using the dragon balls like everyone wanted was a sign toriyama had not run out of ideas. So considering that for several years, the Dragon Balls and their power of resurrection remained a minor plot element, actually served the series well. Yes by the end they are once again used to restore the population of earth and resurrect vegeta, but considering the show went several seasons without them being used in a major fashion... the majority of the shows fanbase forgives toriyama for it. It wasnt until GT, the third Dragonball series that they started to be abused relentlessly. But most ignore it on the basis that toriyama wasnt on board until the last few storyarcs to clean up the mess the original writers started.

but we are getting off topic yes?

Again, you've completely failed to take into account the inherent mythology of Gaia. Gaians are, according to Bugenhagen in FFVII, endowed with Spirit Energy. Given the incredible physical feats that Cloud is able to accomplish in AC, combined with the fact that Limit Breaks are most likely an expression of said Spirit Energy, Cloud's inherent "Spirit" is the primary explanation for his otherworldly strength, speed, and stamina. Given that we have no quantifiable equivalent of Spirit Energy in the real world, comparisons regarding matters such as stamina immeidately ring false.

You know, Im man enough to admit when Im licked. Maybe someday I'll have to admit it here, but not today.

all kidding aside, your familiarity with the mythology of FFVII's Gaia is remarkable, you have embraced what I considered a amusing piece of fluff storytelling. and for that, I salute you. But having an understanding of the wuxia and anime use of chi, I feel as though I can also make a respectable, if less informed then yourself, observation seeing as how the two seem to operate under similar princibles.

Beyond that, however, you ignore several obvious changes in the situations in which Cloud fights. During his first battle, Cloud has no real desire to even fight. As Tifa tells Marlene in the church, she doesn't even believe Cloud plans on fighting his Geostigma (which, given that its definition involves extreme fatigue, would certainly detract from his fighting ability). During his second battle, at the Forgotten City, Cloud has determined to at least attempt to save the children. However, the burden of guilt still weighs heavily upon him. The visitation by Aeris immediately prior to his reaching the city demonstrates that. Here, Cloud's combat is at an altogether different level than the original bike battle; he wields two swords at once, successfully fends off both Loz and Yazoo, blocks bullets, and even utilizes Blade Beam to counter Loz's "localized earthquake."

Again, well told. But my point is that there is little use of applicable technique. let me make another comparison. In Iron monkey, as Wong Ki yi and iron monkey battle the corrupt buddhist master, the master uses a cloth infused with his chi and attacks with it with irresistable force. Iron monkey counters it with his own chain and chi, and the two have a contest of pure power, which iron monkey looses as we see him pulled by the masters superior might. Wong ki yi uses this moment to attack the master who is distracted, thus causing him to loose the use of his weapon. An example of teamwork defeating a foe with superior skills with cunning, skill, and guile.

Where is such thought in AC? there isnt. thats the point. you wont find anything as well thought out and understandable in AC's fight scenes, and thats the main problem. AC imitates the style of HK cinema well enough, but not the substance. Let me make another, yet less well known anecdote.

Michelle yeoh has a picture named Wing Chun, in which she fights a opponent named flying babboon. Goofy name yes, but the guy has power coming out his ears, he initially defeats michelle yeoh twice in combat, with the aim that if she looses a third time she has to marry him. In the third fight, with some coaching from her master, she outsmarts him. While Flying babbon fights with a huge spear that requires five men to carry, she fights with dual butterfly blades, which are sharply curved, scimitar like weapons no longer then a persons forearm, made for quick slices. She then lures him into narrow canyons, small huts, and other enclosures in which the massive spear is a disadvantage, and whales on him. eventually he looses and as a result, him and his gang of thieves have to treat her like she is their mother for the rest of their lives. (hey, its meant to be a wacky comedy, and a damn good one at that).

this is what Im talking about when I mention technique. Fighting, martial arts, swordsmanship, its not about punching hard, kicking high, flipping and looking cool. There is an actual science, Fighting arts are referred to as "Art" for a damn good reason. even wuxia which is the fantasy version of Kung fu flicks has a mythology which it cannot ignore for the sake of sound storytelling. You state that clouds fighting ability increased when he was healed of the geostigma, yet before that he was fighting very well. And it would have been nice for there to be some thought and substance applied to Clouds growth.

ANOTHER EXAMPLE: In crouching tiger, we see jenn evolve from bratty princess to martial art legend. We see the evolution of her skills from her struggling with a lowly desert bandit to being able to fight head to head against a seasoned warrior like Michelle yeoh's charcter. Her skills, techniques, and ability all visibly improve. Her speed, her ability to handle a sword, her ability to counter attack various techniques all grow. It was evident and obvious, and we didnt need to see her defeat michelle yeoh or Chow yun fat to see her progression. The choreography told the tale without there needing to be a knockout. When she goes through a brief test of "who can land the touch of death first" with jade fox and proves she can kill her teacher anytime, its obvious it was superior just by the speed and lack of effort she used. It would have been nice to see the same expert choreography in AC. The fight scenes look good enough, but in reality they were very shallow. that is my problem. Clouds progress should have been obvious, like jenn in CTHD, moves that he had trouble pulling off initially should have been no problem at the end. Techniques that exhausted him in the first fight scene should have been childs play against Sephiroth. But there was no visible improvement by the choreography alone, just by the fact he was able to KO seph and kudaj.

Oh, and he didnt defeat loz and the other seph clone (who's name I can never remember, which is why I call them/him the seph clones/twins as inaccurate as I know it to be) Rude and Reno did by planting the explosives. THAT is how you outsmart a superior foe, they also proved they got superior grey matter by taking advantage of the momma's boys by dissing jenova and choosing that moment to go on the offensive. Also Rude did very well against Loz by just being very aggressive and vicious. I would have liked to see the same in depth direction of choregraphy in clouds fights, instead of just trying to make him seem like a badass with alot of fancy LOOKING choreography and little depth.

Again, you've completely missed the thrust of the plot. Cloud's Geostigma was only a secondary reason for his morose, gloomy behavior; the obvious and primary (and explicitly stated) reason is the burden of guilt he carries.

As to the matter of "[nobody] d[ying] from [Geostigma]," you're again off the mark. Given that the movie explicitly states that there is no cure, that Cloud doesn't know how long he will live, that Marlene begs that Denzel not be taken away, and the entire matter of the Negative Lifestream (the result of the contaminated Spirit Energy from people who have died from Geostigma), it's enormously obvious that Geostigma is eventually and invariably fatal.

Invariably fatal, possibly. But unless you read the novella's (which I havnt) you'd never guess that. As I stated before, it would have been so much more effective if we actually saw SOME severe suffering. Cough up some blood, loose an arm, writhe in agony and infinite torment dammit. show me this is something more freakier then the male version of PMS. You cannot deny it would have been ALOT more effective in creating drama if this had been done ON SCREEN. Nix the zombie ninja kamikaze commando 8 year olds bit, and you have plenty of time to accomplish this. By the way, why doesnt anyone take me up on a verbal debate regarding THAT little subplot? Any Takers?

Again, you've completely missed the thrust of the plot. Cloud's Geostigma was only a secondary reason for his morose, gloomy behavior; the obvious and primary (and explicitly stated) reason is the burden of guilt he carries.

As to the matter of "[nobody] d[ying] from [Geostigma]," you're again off the mark. Given that the movie explicitly states that there is no cure, that Cloud doesn't know how long he will live, that Marlene begs that Denzel not be taken away, and the entire matter of the Negative Lifestream (the result of the contaminated Spirit Energy from people who have died from Geostigma), it's enormously obvious that Geostigma is eventually and invariably fatal.

You might also consider reading, as I originally suggested, Kazushige Nojima's On the Way to a Smile. There, you will see several prominent characters, including Mrs. Levy (Reeve's mother) and Gaskin, die from Geostigma.

Already stated to the guy with aeries pic in his sig that I havnt read them wasnt even aware of them until I did a google search earlier. I will get around to it, but my point stands. The fact that square DIDNT think these details needed to be included in the film, only proves where their priorities were in making AC. The story of the film would have been alot stronger. Im a huge fan of star wars, have read all the novels and most of the comics, yet when I watch the films I grade them on how good the films are, not how good they are as companions to the novels or comics. Same princible applies here, I cant comment on how good the novella's are until I read them, but the fact that AC is is incomplete without having read them just reinforces how poorly written a film it is. Im a mega fan of star wars, can tell you all about the fetts, mandalorian armor, the force and the jedi, yet I still hold episodes 1 and 2 in low regard despite how much more entertaining they are if I apply the background info from the books Ive read. AC is marketed as the sequal to FFVII, and a standalone film, and thats how I judge it and look at it. My appreciation for the story may go up after reading the novels, but my appreciation for the cinematic endeavor will remain the same.

Did you even read my post? All three SHM are Remnants of Sephiroth, meaning that they are aspects of his biological body, and his divided consciousness. Logically, with adequate JENOVA cells, any one of the three could have been used for Sephiroth's return. Given, however, that Kadaj is the leader, and the most like Sephiroth physically, it stands to reason that he would be the one ultimately used for the transformation.

As Ive already stated, There are dozens of replies, and I cant realistically reply to everyone and keep the discussion current can I? No offence to yourself, and If I miss anything or you feel disrespected dont take it personally, feel free to PM me if you feel I missed something, but stating so would derail the conversation at hand.

I assume the three were developed in a seperate novella? Already discussed the weakness in doing that.

Moreover, the matter of the SHM involves symbolic issues as well. The SHM were intended to reflect the Christian doctrine of the Holy Trinity, as the three of them were effectively one--Sephiroth. This also maintains the heavy use of religious symbolism throughout the movie, as well as in the original game

OMFG, they refferrenced christianity, thats SOOO cool.

Im a christian, and while I dont know my bible backwards and forewards, I know it well enough to refute any ignorant critiques against my beliefs (and to those who dont know when to keep a inappropriate discussion out of a thread, if you have any questions or critiques about my beliefs, send em via pm. Had a few sad experiences on past message boards). So maybe it has less shock value to myself when biblical themes get mentioned. Xenogears use of angels, god, and religion I thought was well thought out and entertaining, and anyone who would be offended by that needs to get deeper into their bible, and/or just grow up.

As for the seph trio being influenced by the holy trinity, the significance of it is that the Father (god, the creator) the son (jesus, god in the flesh and the son of god) and the holy spirit (the spiritual pressence and guide of the son that is bestowed upon all believers at the time of baptism) are different, yet the same. They are all one at the same time they are seperate entities. It would take months to only partially explain so dont bother asking. But I fail to see how the seph trio are in any way reminiscent of this. Kadaj would if anything be the closest to sephs son, but what would that make the other two in this comparison? Where are you getting this biblical comparison from?

Ignoring the fact that the SHM aren't Sephiroth Clones, and that calling them such makes no sense in light of the FFVII mythology, Sephiroth was intended to be evil, and malicious, and sadistic. He's the villain. His motivations are understandable, in light of everything that has happened to him (and given that he effectively fused with JENOVA while in the womb), but it doesn't justify his actions.

Im sorry, lets compare villains shall we, my standard for evil villainy is defined by FFVI's Emperor Geshtal Slitting the throat of terra's mother, who was at deaths doorstep already, just to make sure terra would grow up without love and become a heartless, soulless weapon is sheer villainy. Sephiroth burned down one hick town, gutted one church girl, and summoned meteor to do the dirty work he could not. Hell, If you think Im being unfair, be thankful I dont compare him to kefka or Krillan from xenogears.

Okay, so Seph wasnt the most despicable villain ever, he did some bad things, but he's not the most diabolical thing ever.

Oh, and Aeris wasn't "sort of a thrice removed little sister to him." Aeris was an Ancient; Sephiroth is derived from JENOVA, a mysterious extraterrestrial entity which nearly wiped out the Cetra. Not only are they unrelated, they're diametrically opposed

Next, maybe its just the fact you are alot more familiar with the subject matter then myself, but But I was under the impression Jenova descended from the ancients, as was Aeries? I was lucky enough to play FFVII before the disgaea's and xenogears of gamingdom, thus explaining why I enjoyed it as much as I did. I doubt I could stay awake were I to give it another round in today's gaming world. I havnt even finished Atelier Isis or Makai Kingdom yet. If Im wrong, I fully concede this point to your superior familiarity with the source material.

As to the game, by the way, Sephiroth never considered Cloud a friend. Until Cloud hurled him into the reactor, he probably didn't even notice him. Cloud, remember, was not a member of SOLDIER; the "Cloud" that interacted with Seph in the Kalm flashback was, effectively, Zack. I can understand that you disliked the original game, now, given that you missed the single most important plot point in the story.

Really, given what transpired, Sephiroth should have nothing but hate and resentment for Cloud.

Also, ignoring that you miss both the plot and symbolism in both the original game and Advent Children, Kazushige Nojima, not Tetsuya Nomura, was primarily responsible for the story of Advent Children. And, given that his story was based on what actually happened in FFVII, I'm inclined to prefer it to your take.

First of all, it was eight years ago, and even the fiction I take seriously, like the star wars mythos I dont so much live and breath as much as I am entertained by it. hence why I keep a selection of source material and the highest quality stories on my shelf to keep me refreshed incase the rigors and responsibilities of day to day life cause my recollection of this hobby to slip.

Second, my point is that Seph was a humane person once. He valued life and genuinely cared. Its not so much that I didnt remember who cloud really was during that flashback, as seph seemed to consider EVERYONE a comrade. That and cloud was the only one next to seph when they fought that dragon, yet seph used a pheonix down to revive him and showed concern. Thus showing that cloud may have indeed been on more familiar terms rather then him being all diassociative during the entire flashback.

So having one of the SHM (what does that mean anyway?) having a lingering element of seph's former humanity would have been refreshing, and having that played upon would have triggered some much needed development of the character. I would have preferred it if seph had flown off into the sunset to deal with his now devided psyche rather then forget to duck and vow not to remain a memory. the former would be actual development of the character. The latter was just lame and contrived. I admit, I lack the level of familiarity with this particular mytholgy that you have, but that does not escuse in the slightest poor and contrived story telling on AC's part.

I already explained the matter of the characters, as well as why your assessment of the children as "ninja commandos" is totally wrong. Please attempt to understand the story before continuing with this.

As I stated, it is not realistically possible for me to keep this conversation relevent and current, while replying to everyone.

also, skip the specifics and just try explaining how having the kids drink up and become all cult like (espescially when denzelle or whatever his name is is seeing his friend held hostage) makes a lick of sense. Kudaj's speech about the planet hating the children, and how he will save them had alot of paralells to the first ninja turtels live action film where shredder is talking about how society hates the kids he has recruited, but he accepts them as family. Then what was the point of having them act all zombie ninja like in one scene, then have them be all kamikaze like the next? How is this good storytelling? Is there a novella the explain this BS as well? Im sorry, but I dont care if you cone dickens, shakesphere, and mark twain back to life to work together to write a novella trying to justify that garbage, it was weak and the writers knew it. But instead of spending an extra million creating new footage, they decided to instead of use the children as hostages and fodder to keep the hero's busy.

Hey masamune, I respect your points, I respect your knowledge, I respect your presentation and how well thought out it is, but the film is still a poor example of storytelling. No fancy CGI or novella can change that, only serve as a band aid to hide the gash.

[Ishin Ookami]

I agree with Ishin in that they certainly didn't explain things in the movie very well. Why would I want to go hunt down some novellas about a video game so that I can understand a movie sequel? If I wanted to do that, I'd buy some of that horrendous myriad of star wars books. Should I have to read "Rogue Squadron" to understand Revenge of the Sith? (Now yes, those aren't the same timeline, but that's certainly a famous one of the SW universe books, and if you like go find ones that are set before the trilogy)

Anyway, carry on....

You know, the delicious irony of that post is that I didnt even READ your post before posting what I said about my being a fan of the star wars novels, yet still thought the first two star wars prequels sucked despite how much knowing the background of the events during this time period, as was discussed in the comics and novels (such as the evolution of lightsabres, and how the double bladed lightsabre came to be) made them better stories. the first two prequels still sucked regardless, and having to have read a few novels just to understand the films better only validated the poor storytelling in the films, in the exact same way that including much NEEDED plot and character development in a few novella's rather then putting it in the film just shows that square wasnt even trying to make a solid story out of this film, rather they just focused on production values and shallow fan service alone.

Ahem, and incidently, rouge squadran is just about one of the coolest SW novels out there. use it to wash the bad taste of jar jar out of your mouth.

We now return you to your advent children discussion, any more star wars discussion, can we please keep it to pm? This was just pure fluke and I dont want to derail the topic.

[Neco Arc]

Oh, and Aeris wasn't "sort of a thrice removed little sister to him." Aeris was an Ancient; Sephiroth is derived from JENOVA, a mysterious extraterrestrial entity which nearly wiped out the Cetra. Not only are they unrelated, they're diametrically opposed


Next, maybe its just the fact you are alot more familiar with the subject matter then myself, but But I was under the impression Jenova descended from the ancients, as was Aeries? I was lucky enough to play FFVII before the disgaea's and xenogears of gamingdom, thus explaining why I enjoyed it as much as I did. I doubt I could stay awake were I to give it another round in today's gaming world. I havnt even finished Atelier Isis or Makai Kingdom yet. If Im wrong, I fully concede this point to your superior familiarity with the source material.

Jenova was never an ancient... She was in fact an alien or The "Calamity from the Sky" as the ancients called her or it... She falsely befriended the ancients however before the ancients knew what was going on, jenova secretely released a disease that turned the ancients into monsters... As for Aeris, she is in fact part ancient and part human (ancient from her mother Ilfana and human from her father professor Gast)...

You also make references to the emperor in FFVI in conjunction to Sephiroth but I reckon that you should in fact be making a reference to Hojo as Hojo was the entire cause of the "rebirth" of Jenova in Cloud's time...

[Ishin Ookami]

You also make references to the emperor in FFVI in conjunction to Sephiroth but I reckon that you should in fact be making a reference to Hojo as Hojo was the entire cause of the "rebirth" of Jenova in Cloud's time...

Actually, thats just me comparing FF villains.

[Neco Arc]

exactly... Hojo was a villian...

[Ishin Ookami]

exactly... Hojo was a villian...

True, and while Hojo was probably the closest thing FFVII's cast of nay'er do-wells came to being truly likeable in that particular way a good villain is liked. But I still say Emperor Geshthal, while not having as large a rap sheet as hojo, kefka, sin, yunalesca, and other FF villains, is the one that perpetuated the most dispicable villainous act in the history of RPG's, as cool as kefka was, nothing he did shows the utter lack of moral character as slitting the throat of an already dying woman just to twist her baby into a living weapon. Back in FFVI I knew the truce he was offering was fake without needing a stratergy guide. Anyone who would do something so abominable is incapable of remorse or regret.

[Neco Arc]

hojo injected jenova cells into Lucretia hence causing her to have a cursed life... Hojo actions affected Lucretia's, Sephiroth and finally Vincent's life directly as well as others...

[Ishin Ookami]

hojo injected jenova cells into Lucretia hence causing her to have a cursed life... Hojo actions affected Lucretia's, Sephiroth and finally Vincent's life directly as well as others...

Yes, I know. I was there. I playd the game remember? Still doesnt match up to geshthal, kefka, yunalesca, seymore, Cain, and other Final Fantasy Villains.

[RiTaPuffy]

Yes but the reviewer given the proper facts will know this apart of an on going story and would take that into consideration when reviewing the plot. Also though the reviewer would proberly point out how complex the story is for neww comers but at the same time would most deffinately point out, thats its a must see for all FF lovers.

EDIT: Vaprice, dont spam! its annoying and this is a good discusion here.

Thank you

[Angelic Rikku]

I agree with Masamune 1600 on all points. Very intelligent and thought out argument!

And yes, this is just your opinions, and we should respect everyone's opinions, even if they're different than ours.

But there are some things I must point out. I actually think recapping FFVII in the first 10 minutes was a great move, since some of my friends and family had never played the game and it actually helped them understand what was going on instead being thrusted directly into the plot. It made it enjoyable for them to watch the movie without being completely confused.

Another thing that really bugs me though is your perception of Sephiroth. He is NOT the most evil, despicable villain in FF history, but he's still my favorite. BECAUSE he IMO has the most background story out of any villain and he appeals to me and many others that way. I think Square's intent for FFVII to have a realistic villain that you can in some ways feel sorry for... it's a tragedy that Sephiroth never realizes the truth of his past. You can understand why he's so angry with the world, and no other villain has been portrayed that way. All other FF villains that I can think of are just... evil with no real explanation of why they are that way.

(Oh, If I am wrong about anything that I said, let me know. I have never played VI you see....)

[Ishin Ookami]

(Oh, If I am wrong about anything that I said, let me know. I have never played VI you see....)

Well, what you said about kefka and geshtahl being evil without any background as too why is correct. though, sephiroth is somewhat overrated. Terra from FFVI has a very similar history to Sephiroth, she is half human, and half esper. Human's and Espers never got along, there was a war that enarly destroyed the planet, and the empire, the last time they crossed over to the esper dimension killed and took many esper corpses. One of the casualties was Terra's human mother, who was killed by geshtahl so that he could raise and turn terra into a living weapon with no emotional ties or understanding of what it was to be human. See the similarity, the difference is that sephiroth knew kindness, respect, admiration and friendship. Terra knew none of these things, she was raised since childhood to kill. When she began to question why, she was fitted with a mind control device that subdued any free will she had.

I guess this is why I consider Seph so shallow and overrated. Terra should have been just as angry as he was, even more so when she saw the remains of her father, and was told what happened and how she came to be in her situation. She held onto her humanity in situations that were even more dire then sephs lifestory.

Cain from FFIV is also a fairly deep villain, he switches from hero to villain at certain points in the story. Initially he is the main characters closest friend. In fact, there are allusions that he helped to train cecil. Yet at one point Cain and Cecil are seperated, and when they reunite cain is now Cecil's enemy. The main villain didnt so much brainwash, cain, as brought out his darker side. Cain always loved Rosa, yet She loved cecil. A person Cain saw as weaker then himself. The jealousy and pride was Cain's downfall and almost killed him.

Also one must wonder if you played FFX. If you want background story on a villain, it doesnt get any deeper and more tragic then the final battle in that game.

I would also reccommend you hunt down Xenogears, One of my personnal favorite RPG's ever with a story that is by far deeper then VII's, deeper then even FFVI, and with a villain who is at the same time more dispicable then kefka, and more tragic then seph.

And as for recapping the story of FFVII in the first ten minutes, AC HAD a story, then yes it would have been neccessary. There are more then Seven major fight scenes in Advent Children. Thats less then your average Jet Li/Jackie chan kung fu flick. In fact, I cant think of any martial arts film that has that number of major fight scenes. Then there's major story bits... I swear I cant figure out what tifa see's in cloud. He's moody, antisocial, selfish, stupid, shallow, bi-polar, ect. I think we all know the two biggest qualities cloud see's in (or would that be "on") tifa, even more so considering they are bigger then ever in Advent Children :rolleyes2. Then there was clouds relapse into depression, after I paid good money to watch the mook work through it all in the first game. and the villains themselves were utterly shallow with no backstory whatsoever. And no the fact that their backstory was included in some novella doesnt count. If the film makers cant be bothered to put some story elements into a movie, then the story deserves to be bashed. Basically AC was one big sugar rush punctuated by a nonsensical, hole ridden plot and some good bits with rufus and the turks.

By the way, speaking of masamune1600, Im still waiting for your reply

[Russielloyd]

You keep comparing it other things. Just because something is different to what you like, doesnt mean its bad. You just hardly know anything about AC and F77. AC is it own style, why does it have to copy everything else? This is Final Fantasy, you cant compare it too a cartoon anime or a 70s (or whenever it was) martial arts movie, their totally different movie in their own right.

Life-like, yes, you see anything else come close to AC?...dont think so.

[tidus_rox]

Omg i feel so embaressed asking this but is AC already out and if it is I NEED TO SEE IT!!! It looks so effing amazing i would kill to see it! Plz let me no if its out yet and plz dont call me a retard for asking this question!
with all due respect,
Cody Virag