My Thoughts on Advent Children

[ThroneofDravaris]

Actually, the one ignoring what I have to say is you and russell and other people like yourselves. Masamune1600 is one of the few thus far to actually reply with some thought, and he got a respectful, thurough, reply. when you reply with this baseless fanboyish crap that is beyond redundant and dont even bother elaborate, (like say "you dont know nothing" or "you aint bad, you aint nothing" [note, that last quote was satire]) thinking it just is true and the world should shut up and stop disagreeing with you. If you disagree, state why. If you cant rebutt or reply with some intelligence, then its best if you dont even try.

Considering the nature of your original post, my comments were perfectly appropriate. Do you seriously expect anything other than sarcastic backlash when you post something like this? Although, since you so politely (…) asked me to elaborate, I will.

Oh, and might you want to try to explain how cloud and shinji are nothing alike? both spend their time whining about their past, sitting mutely while the world goes to hell around them. they sound pretty much alike to myself.

This is completely untrue of Cloud, and only partially true of Shinji. Cloud never, at any point in either FF7 or Advent Children, sits idly by while everything falls apart. Nor does he ever ‘whine’ per se. Whining implies that he complains about his circumstances, which never occurs. If Cloud is flawed in any way, it is that he takes too much of the world problems upon himself to begin with. Admittedly, this is a contrast to his ‘as long as I get paid’ attitude at the beginning of FF7, but that’s one o those magical things we call ‘character development’ I guess. Cloud blames himself for the death of Aeris in AC, thus isolates himself from others. He considers that his burdens are his alone, and refuses the help from others. This trait is rather common among protagonists in action movies, especially ones of Asian origin. How he could ever be interpreted as ‘whiny’ is beyond me. I can’t think of a single instance in which he complains about his current conditions.

Shinji Ikari, on the other hand, DOES whine. A Lot. However, it should be noted that despite being reluctant (and at some points, all together opposed) to fulfil his role, he does (in one way or another) end up getting the job down. Unlike Cloud (who, after all, had ambitions to join SOLDIER), Shinji has no desire to fight. Where Cloud fights because he wants to protect people, Shinji fights because he feels he has no other choice. Cloud distances himself from others because he feels that he must suffer on his own accord, and seek redemption on his own. Shinji distances himself from others because he is afraid of being hurt, and afraid of hurting others (Re: Hedgehogs Dilemma). He is unable to feel for other people because he hates himself, and this hatred subsequently leads to him closing off the world in the final episodes. Shinji is a classic anti-hero, a trait that Cloud shows only briefly in the beginning of FF7. Really, there are almost no similarities that can be drawn between these characters. There motivations, appearance and personality are all very different.

And as for tifa/lita, lets see.... both are PURPOSELY designed to have short skirts and big racks (though in lita's case, it was a gag), both are expert martial artists, both half lingering crushes on childhood friends who treat them like dirt, both work in the serving industry, hmmmm. yah your right. nothing alike. :rolleyes2

And yet everything you said is a superficial quality. You may as well compare her to Hyatt, who also wears short skirts, has larger than average breasts and works as a waitress on a multitude of occasions. Lita isn’t the only one of the Sailor Senshi that wears a short skirt either, thus it does not count as a character trait. Lita’s skills in the martial arts are subsidiary to her primary means of attack, which is her ability to manipulate/produce lightning. In fact, her martial abilities were probably only added to the script because the complimented her boisterous nature, which is where she differs from Tifa the most.

Lita is an outspoken, extroverted tomboy. Tifa is not either of these things; these are characteristics that define Aeris more than anyone else. For a ‘fighter type’ female lead, she actually militates from the usually stereotypes significantly and is a rather submissive. She is not at all hostile, and even when she is lecturing Cloud, it isn’t exactly a ‘good tongue lashing’. Lita is also a slave to her sexual desires (aka ‘boy crazy’) while Tifa only really ever shows interest in Cloud. There is a particularly hilarious moment in FF7 that plays upon Tifa’s inability to recognise advances from men. You can actually get Cloud to crack on to Tifa very early in the game, to which she replies, “I don’t know what you mean…”. This emphasises Tifa’s ‘innocent’ qualities, something which conflicts rather strongly with her physical characteristics, but is present non-the-less. There really isn’t anything substantial that links these two characters together; other then they both have particularly large breasts…

Oh yah, and russell, my apologies seeing as how Ive been a bit TOO rough on you. but a word of advice, if you dont want to see it continue, actually read through my posts as you will find alot of things you keep stating, Ive already replined. I do you and masamune the respectful service of reading thoroughly before replying to your threads, if you cant do the same (reading something before you comment on it) then dont bother replying because that in itself is disrespectful and will only eventually incite a flame war.

And yet, who’s the one that’s getting his post edited?

[Ishin Ookami]

Shinji Ikari, on the other hand, DOES whine. A Lot. However, it should be noted that despite being reluctant (and at some points, all together opposed) to fulfil his role, he does (in one way or another) end up getting the job down. Unlike Cloud (who, after all, had ambitions to join SOLDIER), Shinji has no desire to fight. Where Cloud fights because he wants to protect people, Shinji fights because he feels he has no other choice. Cloud distances himself from others because he feels that he must suffer on his own accord, and seek redemption on his own. Shinji distances himself from others because he is afraid of being hurt, and afraid of hurting others (Re: Hedgehogs Dilemma). He is unable to feel for other people because he hates himself, and this hatred subsequently leads to him closing off the world in the final episodes. Shinji is a classic anti-hero, a trait that Cloud shows only briefly in the beginning of FF7. Really, there are almost no similarities that can be drawn between these characters. There motivations, appearance and personality are all very different.

I think you havnt watched many episodes of Evangelion, because shinji for a time embraced his role as an eva pilot, partially due to rei and the fact that she was a genetic clone of his mom, fused with the DNA of an angel. Though we didnt know it at the time, you can clearly see him wholehearted begin to embrace fighting at the helm of eva 01 to ensure that rei will not suffer and die. Later he even began to enjoy the role, becoming cocky even for a brief period.

So, his character arc for more then half the series was from whiner, to cocky hero. Kinda sound like someone we know? YAH CLOUD! during the beginning of FFVII he's all guts and guille, putting on an act as a cool merc, later he gets broken down and when we see his real personality, he's just pathetic. He grew up a weakling, no father, a doting mother, and having tifa protect his punk ass (just as lita is seen doing in various eps). He whined about it so much and wanted to be strong so that he would be accepted (like shinji did later on in evangelion). Yet while shinji had a mecha for backup, how the heck cloud ended up tough enough to pull a blade out of his gut, lift seph by the end of that blade and hurl him into a pit without having his fingers sliced off is beyond me. Once again the great god of plot contrivance (tetsuya nomura be thy name) smiles on him.

And perhaps you havnt seen Advent children yet, but cloud is back in full whiner mode yet again. So he's got a friggin rash on his arm, he decides to become a hermit. Boo, friggin hoo. Then he's whining to everyone how he cant protect anyone, he wants forgiveness, (like shinji) he sits there while midgars children get kidnapped and tifa and the turks all have to sit there coaching him until he gets off his butt. Also akin to shinji. Only difference is that shinji's development (or self destruction if you will) as a character is logical, well planned and thought out, clouds is contrived as hell. One line from vincent and he's walking on sunshine. What the hell? and Marlene goes from hating his guts to thinking he's the tops in two seconds. Arrgghhh, can we have some friggin logic to these proceedings?

Clouds growth at the end of the original FFVII, as shallow and contrived as it was, gave the game a decent amount of closure. Yet in AC he's back into full shinji ikari mode. Personally, I think cloud is more likeable when he whines, because thats the only time he has anything resembling depth. when's hes into full action hero mode he's bland as toast. boring. In the game he found out he's been borderline MPD for the past few years, and before that he was a weakling, yet afterwards he's back in full action hero mode. How does that make ANY sense? It doesnt. If he left for a while, trained so that any strength or training he has is truly his and not some projected delusion brought on by his disassociative personality, that would have made more sense. It would have been logical, and better thought out. The revelation of his past and true character had no consequences whatsoever. So yah, most of the time he's shinji ikari with a big sword, and others he's just a blank slate modelling action hero stereotypes.

And yet everything you said is a superficial quality. You may as well compare her to Hyatt, who also wears short skirts, has larger than average breasts and works as a waitress on a multitude of occasions. Lita isn’t the only one of the Sailor Senshi that wears a short skirt either, thus it does not count as a character trait. Lita’s skills in the martial arts are subsidiary to her primary means of attack, which is her ability to manipulate/produce lightning. In fact, her martial abilities were probably only added to the script because the complimented her boisterous nature, which is where she differs from Tifa the most.

lita's martial abilities, and giftend endownment are major parts of who she is. several times her physical abilities come into play as her character is delved into. not to mention that when the show is unedited, her rack gets several jokes. Complete with her thinking she should get the starring role in a school play because of her cup size. Of all the Sailor Senshi, she is the one who's physical assets get the most mention. Again, like tifa. As for your mention of hyatt, she was also fanatically loyal to Ilparatzza, going so far as to attempt to murder a friend. Hyatt wasnt so much submissive, as she was loyal.

Lita is an outspoken, extroverted tomboy. Tifa is not either of these things; these are characteristics that define Aeris more than anyone else. For a ‘fighter type’ female lead, she actually militates from the usually stereotypes significantly and is a rather submissive. She is not at all hostile, and even when she is lecturing Cloud, it isn’t exactly a ‘good tongue lashing’. Lita is also a slave to her sexual desires (aka ‘boy crazy’) while Tifa only really ever shows interest in Cloud. There is a particularly hilarious moment in FF7 that plays upon Tifa’s inability to recognise advances from men. You can actually get Cloud to crack on to Tifa very early in the game, to which she replies, “I don’t know what you mean…”. This emphasises Tifa’s ‘innocent’ qualities, something which conflicts rather strongly with her physical characteristics, but is present non-the-less. There really isn’t anything substantial that links these two characters together; other then they both have particularly large breasts…

Yet for all lita's boy chasing (not nearly as incessant as minako's) , she is one of the few who at the end of the series doesnt have a boyfriend. For all her sexual fueled personna, she is still one of the more heartfelt and original characters. And you exaggerate Tifa's "inncent(?) qualities". Was she not the one using her physical assets to gain a meeting with don coniro? Yah, playing the role of a prostitute is REAL innocent huh? Was she not shown as being tougher then many of the boys back in nibelhelm? Bossy even? The qualities that make her unlike lita (what few there are) Is what makes her as unlikeable as cloud. In the end she is just as weak a character as he is. In Advent Children she does little but moon over him (in much the same way lita moons over her ex) and whine. ditto for in the game as well, though she did have a few moments where her tomboy side shined through (which made her comparible to lita again. If you take a look at design, main characteristics, and drawing points... she is identical to lita in every way... save lita has some actual thought and heart whereas tifa's arc is very trite and boring.

And yet, who’s the one that’s getting his post edited?

Oh my god, I edit my posts, im so ashamed. :rolleyes2

[Winter Nights]

Oh god, I edit my posts, im so ashamed. :rolleyes2

Actually, I believe he was referring to a mod editting one of your posts. Which really doesn't have anything to do with the discussion.

[Masamune·1600]

As ToD noted earlier, I have no desire to continue with this thread. Obviously, regardless of what anyone in this thread says to you, you're not going to change your opinion regarding AC. I can't fault anyone for that, as liking or disliking the movie is a function of opinion, and nothing else. My problems, however, arise from the fact that almost all of your criticisms are either spurious, or are the result of a profound misunderstanding of FFVII concepts. As such, I will reply to this thread one final time, in an effort to elucidate relevant aspects of the plots of AC and the original game.

I'm not going to bother quoting your extended overviews on various kung fu flicks you've seen and enjoyed over the years. I will state, however, that your criticisms neglect the realities of the movie. Note, for example, your initial reference to two heroes together overcoming a more powerful villain. The same convention exists in AC; however, it is reversed. Rather than the protagonist overcoming a villain by playing off of the abilities of an ally, enemies work together. Note that in the fight at the Forgotten City, Loz and Yazoo compliment each other very well, frequently playing off of the battle characteristics and abilities of the other. One notable example would be Yazoo taking Loz's gunblade, allowing him to fire both at once while freeing Loz to use his martial arts and speed flashes. Another example would be when Loz generates the localized earthquake; Yazoo leaps backwards over it while still firing at Cloud. Cloud is thus forced to continue to block the bullets, before countering the earth attack with Blade Beam.

However, this doesn't matter much to me. While your other examples can be similarly deconstructed, I personally see no merit in adherence to tired, hackneyed battle conventions. That you enjoy these stereotypes is your prerogative, of course, but such criticisms (if they even applied) are a function of personal interpretation, and not the quality of the movie.

From here, I'll simmply touch on a few of the more glaring misunderstandings regarding the plot, both as regards the original game, and as regards Advent Children.

Oh, and he didnt defeat loz and the other seph clone (who's name I can never remember, which is why I call them/him the seph clones/twins as inaccurate as I know it to be) Rude and Reno did by planting the explosives.

You obviously don't understand the idea of context. Cloud needed to catch up with Kadaj; Loz and Yazoo needed to prevent Cloud from doing so. In the context of the bike battle, Loz and Yazoo were defeated; they were neutralized, their weapons and a bike destroyed, and were unable to stop or even noticeably delay Cloud.

Moreover, while the explosives used by Reno and Rude certainly incapacitated Loz and Yazoo, perhaps even mortally wounding them, the fact remains that the two SHM appeared again at the end, after Cloud had defeated Sephiroth. Only at this point did they finally die.

Invariably fatal, possibly. But unless you read the novella's (which I havnt) you'd never guess that. As I stated before, it would have been so much more effective if we actually saw SOME severe suffering. Cough up some blood, loose an arm, writhe in agony and infinite torment dammit. show me this is something more freakier then the male version of PMS.

Given that Cloud exhibits little or no pain after having a sword run through his shoulder, or being shot in the back, yet exhibits clear pain whenever Geostigma asserts itself, is obviusly indicative that the malady was somewhat serious. Further, the movie implicitly attests to the deadliness of Geostigma; Marlene asks that Denzel "not be taken away," while Cloud's ruminations on life at Zack's grave also suggest the danger presented by the condition.

Also note that the Negative Lifestream, an important concept for the movie, is composed from the corrupted Spirit Energy of those who died from Geostigma.

You cannot deny it would have been ALOT more effective in creating drama if this had been done ON SCREEN. Nix the zombie ninja kamikaze commando 8 year olds bit, and you have plenty of time to accomplish this. By the way, why doesnt anyone take me up on a verbal debate regarding THAT little subplot? Any Takers?

Apparently, you still haven't read my initial post, where I fully explained the matter of the children. For your convenience, I'll include the relevant excerpts here.

First off, Kadaj's master plan had nothing to do with any sort of suicide cult whatever the hell you were trying to say. Kidnapping the children brought together several key points. In addition to reestablishing the underlying themes of the movie, it allowed the SHM to lure Cloud to the Forgotten City. Moreover, as the children were afflicted with Geostigma, they were, really, kin to the SHM. Since Geostigma involves JENOVA, this also ties into the concept of again bringing about the Reunion. Still further, the children, ostensibly, could have been used to help locate the "head of JENOVA" once they had been infused by Kadaj's will.

also...

Kadaj kidnaps and brainwashes midgars children, then just has them stand around waiting for bahamut to kill them. What was the point of kidnapping them then?

Um, in addition to the numerous reasons presented above, they also effectively kept the populace from interrupting Loz and Yazoo as they attempted to tear down the memorial (where they thought the head of JENOVA was being kept).

Already stated to the guy with aeries pic in his sig that I havnt read them wasnt even aware of them until I did a google search earlier. I will get around to it, but my point stands. The fact that square DIDNT think these details needed to be included in the film, only proves where their priorities were in making AC. The story of the film would have been alot stronger. Im a huge fan of star wars, have read all the novels and most of the comics, yet when I watch the films I grade them on how good the films are, not how good they are as companions to the novels or comics. Same princible applies here, I cant comment on how good the novella's are until I read them, but the fact that AC is is incomplete without having read them just reinforces how poorly written a film it is. Im a mega fan of star wars, can tell you all about the fetts, mandalorian armor, the force and the jedi, yet I still hold episodes 1 and 2 in low regard despite how much more entertaining they are if I apply the background info from the books Ive read. AC is marketed as the sequal to FFVII, and a standalone film, and thats how I judge it and look at it. My appreciation for the story may go up after reading the novels, but my appreciation for the cinematic endeavor will remain the same.

You fail to fully understand the nature of Advent Children; in addition to being a movie sequel to FFVII, it is also a part of the Compilation of FFVII (composed of Advent Children, Before Crisis, Dirge of Cerberus, and Crisis Core). While On the Way to a Smile is not explicitly a part of the Compilation, it does fall under SE's stated strategy of exploring "polymorphic content." This generally refers to the variety of different ways SE plans to explore FFVII within the Compilation (DVD/UMD, cell phone, PS2, PSP), and a book element would certainly be in line with such thinking.

Moreover, it seems to be presumptuous to assume anything regarding SE's plans on Advent Children, as the movie has not yet seen official release outside of Japan. Realize, though, that On the Way to a Smile has been a staple of the official Japanese AC site for quite some time, that the novella was written by Kazushige Nojima (who was responsible for the story of AC), and that the limitations of film (primarily regarding time and money) limit what can be included. If anything, it would seem that SE intended for its Japanese audience to read the novella.

I assume the three were developed in a seperate novella? Already discussed the weakness in doing that.

No. The first appearance of the SHM was in Advent Children itself.

OMFG, they refferrenced christianity, thats SOOO cool.

Im a christian, and while I dont know my bible backwards and forewards, I know it well enough to refute any ignorant critiques against my beliefs (and to those who dont know when to keep a inappropriate discussion out of a thread, if you have any questions or critiques about my beliefs, send em via pm. Had a few sad experiences on past message boards).

I'm also a Christian (Roman Catholic, specifically), and I understand my faith reasonably well. I'll be glad to expound on the religious themes present in Advent Children.

As for the seph trio being influenced by the holy trinity, the significance of it is that the Father (god, the creator) the son (jesus, god in the flesh and the son of god) and the holy spirit (the spiritual pressence and guide of the son that is bestowed upon all believers at the time of baptism) are different, yet the same. They are all one at the same time they are seperate entities. It would take months to only partially explain so dont bother asking. But I fail to see how the seph trio are in any way reminiscent of this. Kadaj would if anything be the closest to sephs son, but what would that make the other two in this comparison? Where are you getting this biblical comparison from?

An appreciation for the religious symbolism of the SHM requires an understanding of a complex chain of further religious symbolism, both that present in AC, and that involved with the original game. To begin, one must first understand that the SHM are aspects of Sephiroth; the SHM are Sephiroth, derived from his will and unknowingly subject to has machinations. Further, one must understand that the wills of JENOVA and Sephiroth are essentially indistinguishable; even physically, they are not entirely separate. Next, realize that JENOVA (an entity whose name is a corruption of the Latin for "new God") literally attempts to serve that role, usurping the "God" of Gaia, the Lifestream (which embodies all life). Finally, recall that Sephiroth is essentially one with JENOVA, and also that he himself seeks to become a deity by means of an apotheosis induced by the gathering of the Lifestream. With these facts in place, Sephiroth can be understood metaphorically as an "evil god."

With the background in place, the parallels between the concept of the SHM and the Holy Trinity are striking. The following quoted points are taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, unless otherwise noted (there is one use of game script for reasons of comparison).

1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:
- enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
- giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
- allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
Thus the whole organism of the Christian's supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.

There are, symbolically two "baptisms" in Advent Children; the first is relevant to the SHM. At the Forgotten City, the children receive a "dark baptism" of sorts (keep in mind that the SHM are an "evil trinity"); there, they are "submerged" in the Black Water when they drink it. As a result, they are infused by the will of Kadaj; they are given the "power" to live under the promptings (read: direct manipulation) of Kadaj (and therefore, ultimately, Sephiroth), allowing them to act as completely empty vessels, devoid of self-awareness.

234 The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian faith and life. It is the mystery of God in himself. It is therefore the source of all the other mysteries of faith, the light that enlightens them. It is the most fundamental and essential teaching in the "hierarchy of the truths of faith". The whole history of salvation is identical with the history of the way and the means by which the one true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, reveals himself to men "and reconciles and unites with himself those who turn away from sin".

The mystery of the SHM is the central mystery of Advent Children; they are Remnants of Sephiroth. In uniting with the cells of JENOVA, Sephiroth is again revealed (the metaphor here is of course not exact, but the actual Holy Trinity is itself a mystery that cannot be fully understood).

261 The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of the Christian faith and of Christian life. God alone can make it known to us by revealing himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Sephiroth is "revealed" in the aspects of Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo.

1024 This perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity - this communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed - is called "heaven." Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness.

In the mythology of FFVII, the idea closest to "Heaven" is the Lifestream (in Aeris and Zack, we see the promise of life after death). However (recalling that, for the purpose of the metaphor, Sephiroth is an "evil god"), life within the trinity of the SHM (which is to say, Sephiroth) is, ironically "hellish" (the Negative Lifestream). Given that the Lifestream can be equated with the Cetra idea of the Promise Land (more religious symbolism, but not to be explored here), which is described in the original FFVII as "supreme happiness..."

Aeris: ...I don't know. All I know is... The Cetra were born from the Planet,
speak with the Planet, and unlock the Planet. And......then... The Cetra will
return to the Promised Land. A land that promises supreme happiness.

...the Negative Lifestream (controlled by Seph), the corrupted opposite of the Lifestream, can be understood to be theexact opposite of "supreme, definitive happiness."

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity". The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God." In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."

The SHM are one--they are Sephiroth. Sephiroth is one, symbolically divided into three individuals which share "Sephiroth" among themselves. Each of them is a Remnant of Sephiroth--any of the three could have merged with the JENOVA cells to again manifest Sephiroth on Gaia. Each one of the SHM really embodies the reality of Sephiroth.

Realizing that the metaphor cannot be completely exact, and that the SHM comprise an evil trinity (whereas God is perfect, and wholly good), the symbolism is remarkably deep and detailed. Moreover, because of the nature of the Holy Trinity, it becomes easier to understand the SHM as they exist in the movie.

As to your points regarding villains, you seem to equate quality villains with sheer, mindless evil. Sephiroth has demostrably more depth than Kefka or Gestahl, as can be seen by simply referring to the above religious allusions (and that takes no account of his backstory, plot relevance, and coninued religious symbolism). Sephiroth, in spite of what mnay think, is comparable to the characters of Xenogears. Also of note is that Kefka and Gestahl are hardly emblematic of the "greatest evil" in the FF series. I would recommend playing Final Fantasy Tactics; there is no one in the series, I believe, who can match the evil of Dycedarg, and Barinten's treatment of Rafa goes far beyond what Gestahl did with Madonna and Terra.

Next, maybe its just the fact you are alot more familiar with the subject matter then myself, but But I was under the impression Jenova descended from the ancients, as was Aeries?

I don't mean to be critical, but this is why your diatribes have received such heated responses. You bash FFVII concepts without having any idea what was actually going on.

The Cetra/Ancients were essentially a race of people closely attuned to the Planet. They predated normal human beings; certain Cetra that broke off from their relatively harsh lifestyle were actually the precursors to humanity.

Sephiroth: Ha, ha, ha...... Who is it!? Hmph... traitor.

Cloud: Traitor?

Sephiroth: You ignorant traitor. I'll tell you. This was a itinerant race. They
would migrate in, settle the Planet, then move on... At the end of their harsh,
hard journey, they would find the Promised Land and supreme happiness. But,
those who stopped their migrations built shelters and elected to lead an easier
life. They took that which the Cetra and the planet had made without giving back
one whit in return! Those are your ancestors.

Cloud: Sephiroth...

Sephiroth: Long ago, disaster struck this planet. Your ancestors escaped... They
survived because they hid. The Planet was saved by sacrificing the Cetra. After
that, your ancestors continued to increase. Now all that's left of the Cetra is
in these reports.

JENOVA is, basically, an extraterrestrial entity with goals and properties similar to that of a virus. When JENOVA landed on Gaia, it approached the Cetra, infecting them with a virus and turning them into monsters.

From the Icicle Inn films...

Ifalna: I'm all right... When the Cetra... were preparing to part with the
land they loved...That's when it appeared! It looked like... our... our dead
mothers...and our dead brothers. Showing us spectres of their past.

Gast: Who is the person that appeared at the North Cave? I haven't any idea.

Ifalna: That's when the one who injured the Planet...or the 'crisis from the
sky', as we call him, came. He first approached as a friend, deceived them,
and finally......gave them the virus. The Cetra were attacked by the virus
and went mad...transforming into monsters. Then, just as he had at the
Knowlespole. He approached other Cetra clans......infecting them with...the
virus...

Ifalna and Gast, the two individuals speaking in the quote above, were the parents of Aeris. Ifalna was an Ancient/Cetra. Sephiroth was the child of Hojo and Lucrecia, and was injected with JENOVA cells while still in the womb. He was not an Ancient; neither, obviously, was JENOVA.

This, again, is why responses have been so vociferous. This is roughly equivalent to complaining about The Empire Strikes Back because "Luke started listening to that little green alien, rather than finding Yoda." As exaggerated as that seems, confusing the Cetra and JENOVA is arguably a more profound (though easier to make) error.

Second, my point is that Seph was a humane person once. He valued life and genuinely cared. Its not so much that I didnt remember who cloud really was during that flashback, as seph seemed to consider EVERYONE a comrade. That and cloud was the only one next to seph when they fought that dragon, yet seph used a pheonix down to revive him and showed concern. Thus showing that cloud may have indeed been on more familiar terms rather then him being all diassociative during the entire flashback.

So having one of the SHM (what does that mean anyway?) having a lingering element of seph's former humanity would have been refreshing, and having that played upon would have triggered some much needed development of the character. I would have preferred it if seph had flown off into the sunset to deal with his now devided psyche rather then forget to duck and vow not to remain a memory. the former would be actual development of the character. The latter was just lame and contrived. I admit, I lack the level of familiarity with this particular mytholgy that you have, but that does not escuse in the slightest poor and contrived story telling on AC's part.

You don't seem to understand. Your version of events is impossible, as it contradicts who and what Sephiroth is. Sephiroth was never so much humane as he was formal and correct in a military manner (befitting someone of his position); moreover, Sephiroth didn't consider everyone a comrade. It would be much more accurate to say he considered no one a comrade. Rather, he treated everyone as would be considered proper given his station in SOLDIER.

Also, Sephiroth never had any connection to Cloud prior to their confrontation in the reactor on Mt. Nibel. The "Cloud" of the Kalm flashback was actually Zack; Cloud was a regular soldier, and Sephiroth would not have even known his name. The battles during the flashback, therefore, really involved Sephiroth and Zack,not Sephiroth and Cloud.

Moreover, Sephiroth does not revive Zack with a Phoenix Down out of care. Sephiroth will never use a Phoenix Down, as it's not part of the game script. In fact, Sephiroth will do nothing in battle to heal Zack, even though he himself is invincible. In the fight against the Dragon, Sephiroth will slash it with the Masamune until it dies; in any subsequent fights, Sephiroth will destroy the enemies with powerful offensive magic. If Zack is is injured, you can resort to the Magic menu and use Sephiroth's Cure and Life magic; however, this is obviously your action, not his.

The "forgot to duck" comment is off base; refer to my initial post on the first page.

In spite of your claims to find Sephiroth a mediocre villain, you adhere to many of the same ideas as his more shrill fanbase; they feel a need to romanticize him, to justify his actions and make him a "good character." The problem with this is it contradicts Sephiroth's fundamental identity. Prior to birth, Sephiroth was injected with JENOVA cells. These merged with him on a fundamental biological level; in essence, Sephiroth became an "evolution" of JENOVA. In other words,while pursuing his own goals, he also pursued the goals of JENOVA. As JENOVA is inherently opposed to the Lifestream, Sephiroth is an enemy of anyone on Gaia. While this quality might have been considered dormant prior to the Nibelheim disaster, the fact remains that Sephiroth is defined by his "being" JENOVA, and therefore cannot be good. His aims can change, becoming more sophisticated (and even, on a certain level, kind of well-intentioned; refer to his plan at the end of AC), but they remain fundamentally wrong, and more importantly, coincide with the immutable aims of JENOVA (who would have moved on to (an)other planet(s)).

Your ideas, then, regardless of what you may think, don't work. What you describe as "development" is an impossibility. The closest possible thing to redemption for Sephiroth was redemption for Kadaj, which did occur, and was the most that could be done given Sephiroth's true identity.

SHM is an abbreviation for "silver-haired men;" basically, it's an easy way to refer to Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo.

also, skip the specifics and just try explaining how having the kids drink up and become all cult like (espescially when denzelle or whatever his name is is seeing his friend held hostage) makes a lick of sense.

I did so on the first page. You probably should have read that.

Well, what you said about kefka and geshtahl being evil without any background as too why is correct. though, sephiroth is somewhat overrated. Terra from FFVI has a very similar history to Sephiroth, she is half human, and half esper. Human's and Espers never got along, there was a war that enarly destroyed the planet, and the empire, the last time they crossed over to the esper dimension killed and took many esper corpses. One of the casualties was Terra's human mother, who was killed by geshtahl so that he could raise and turn terra into a living weapon with no emotional ties or understanding of what it was to be human. See the similarity, the difference is that sephiroth knew kindness, respect, admiration and friendship. Terra knew none of these things, she was raised since childhood to kill. When she began to question why, she was fitted with a mind control device that subdued any free will she had.

I guess this is why I consider Seph so shallow and overrated. Terra should have been just as angry as he was, even more so when she saw the remains of her father, and was told what happened and how she came to be in her situation. She held onto her humanity in situations that were even more dire then sephs lifestory.

Again, your opinions are based solely on misconceptions. Sephiroth and Terra are not at all alike.

Terra was the daughter of Maduin, an Esper, and Madonna, a human. You had that much right. However, there was no overriding factor that determined that Terra should be evil. Maduin and Madonna, as is obvious in the recollection of the Esper World, were decent beings.

Maduin: Did I awaken you?
Girl: You're... an Esper? What's that pendant for?
Maduin: It's... yours now! It helps protect the Esper World.
Girl: Esper World... Boy, did I take the low road or what?
Maduin: The Esper folk are pretty upset, you being a human and all...
Girl: You're the one who saved me?
Maduin: I am Maduin. I tired of living in the human world... That world is filled with desire, greed and loathing. It's highly infectious...
Maduin: Are humans and Espers truly... so different?
Madonna: So... I'm an example of the evil in this world, huh?
Maduin: No, I mean...
Madonna: I'll return to my world tomorrow!
Maduin: You'll need a guide.

Youth: What's wrong, Maduin?

Maduin: If you don't want to return to your world, you may stay here.
Madonna: But humans and Espers can never co-exist...!
Maduin: How do we know for sure unless we try for ourselves?
How do we know...
unless we...
observe for ourselves...?

Apparently, in the case of Terra, we see something of an argument for nature over nurture, as she retains basic decency in spite of her upbringing. There is no explanation given; really, Terra's time under the supervision of the Empire is unexplored. We only know that she is taken by the Empire slightly two years after being born. While Terra is one of my favorite characters in the series, her backstory is not nearly so deep as you would imply. Rather, it's the events of the game, her search for an understanding of love, that makes Terra so endearing.

Also of note is that Terra's truly formative experiences come during her time with the party, all of whom do their best to help her, guide her, and befriend her. In fact, Terra's time with the Empire is almost irrelevant, as it is revealed that she suffers from amnesia after her encounter with Tritoch and the removal of the Slave Crown, and as memory returned, it was tempered by the reality of the goodness of the party.

Sephiroth, as I've explained previously, is effectively an evolution of JENOVA. Any "kindness" that Sephiroth knew was irrelevant; his aims are of necessity evil. Moreover, Sephiroth was never really treated with "kindness," so far as we know. He was a military experiment. Certainly he gained prestige and admiration for his power and valor in battle, but he was never anything other than a tool of Shinra. He never knew his parents, had no hometown, and grew up feeling different from everyone else. That might have been overcome, as it was in the case of Terra, but Sephiroth is inherently unimpressionable. He is, ultimately, defined by that fateful introduction of JENOVA while in the womb. In effect, Sephiroth became the living, sentient embodiment of JENOVA, and thus is as tragic a character as has ever been in the series.

Also, just because one character chooses good and another chooses evil does not make one shallow. These are choices; if reasons are provided for the choice (and Seph had reason enough), the nature of the choice itself is irrelevant.

Really, these plot clarifications are more for the edification of anyone that might read them, since you've consistently ignored my explanations thus far. I simply hope you understand that while Advent Children, like any movie, can easily be brought under the lens of legitimate criticism, your complaints stem from misconceptions you have made no effort to rectify.

I don't intend to make any further clarifications in this thread; I'm tired of taking this overly formal, wordy tone.

[Ishin Ookami]

Well masamune, I agree that its time to end this discussion. You really do come accross as closed minded, you critique my lack of ability to recite the FFVII script on cue but feel as though you do not need to understand any of the sources that served as inspiration for Advent children. Your Hackneyed fighting convention crack was very out of line, as you seem to be under the impression that all there is to martial arts is kicking people in the head, and dont seem to comprehend the physical, mental, and emotional conditioning that is required to obtain any degree of skill, and the neccessary understanding of these factors in constructing a proper fight sequence involving the practices of sword or physical combat. You seem to feel that your arguments should be respected and adhered to as law, while other points that are just as, if not more, well constructed are ignored or dismissed simply because you are not familiar with the material.

Ive also noticed that you just seem to be reaching for material in order to justify your arguments. You seem like a reasonably intelligent indvidual, yet you undermine this impression by stating that the geostigma is likely more painful then sword or gunshot wounds, thus simultaneously attempting to justify clouds physical prowess and the severity of the ailment. Yet if this were true then why arent there cases of children committing suicide, lopping off afflicted limbs just to be rid of the pain while shrieking and writhing in agony? A stabwound in itself is a very agonizing and painful thing, which if particularly severe and major arteries or muscles are cut, would impair the victim from functioning to full ability (like it should have affected cloud), so an ailment that can surppass the pain threshold in terms of severity would likely lead to people dying in a period of days due too exhaustion, seeing as how the human body would eventually exhuast itself as it produces adenaline and other chemicals that would aid a person to endure intense physical hardship. Thus any really deep and unbiased thought would lead a person to the conclusion that the writers (I should state "writer" seeing as how its my personal theory that nomura wrote the script on his own, as it bears almost all his hallmarks, but Im giving square the benefit of the doubt) couldnt see fit to write anything particularly poignant about the geostigma.

It seems as this discussion has really run its course. take pride in the fact that you've given as good an argument in AC's favor as anyone Ive met, but its not good enough. If you cant respect and appreciate someone with a superior knowledge then yourself in a certain field (as I did when I applauded your knowledge of FFVII's script ) then there is no point in continuing on, seeing as how intelligent and respecful discussion is an impossibility. You had some interesting, yet misguided posts in your thread, but if you want to hear of them feel free to pm me and I'll discuss it further. Otherwise I see little point in continuing a discussion that is just going in circles with little respect or dignity.

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

This thread is officially over. Ookami, you would be well advised to keep such comments out of future posts. We do not allow for personal attacks on this forum.