One Question That Needs Clearing Up...

[Masamune·1600]

As I recall, Auron says "when Jecht touched Sin, he became real."

I imagine that's because of Yu-Yevon, just as how (SPOILER)the Fayth can make Tidus real at the end of X-2

I believe the line you're referring to is...

Fayth: Would you and your father... Would you let us rest? Both you and
your father have been touched by Sin. Sin, the one around whom all
Spira-the spiral-revolves.

Tidus: What are you saying?

Fayth: You two are more than just dreams now.

However, this does not relegate Tidus and Jecht to having been mere apparitions prior to contact with Sin. Being "more than just dreams" refers to moving beyond the inherently limited sphere of influence occupied by the Dreams--being able to have an actual impact on Spira. Residents of Dream Zanarkand cannot by themselves leave Dream Zanarkand--they do not even know (or can know) than anything exists beyond the city's boundaries. However, by coming into contact with Sin, one can be brought to Spira, and move outside of Dream Zanarkand's limitations.

[tailz]

first of srry i dindnt have time to read everything im in a hurry but this struck me a few minutes ago when playing

the dream zanarkand is inside sin you fight against jecht above it, this is also why people can go from the dream zanarkand to the real world through sin. and reverse.

also yu yevon made the dream.(in a way he did)

if your dream would be real where would you keep it .

right, as close as possible right?

teh reason why sin came to dream zanarkand i havent figured out yet but once i got a theory about that ill post it.

[Christmas]

first of srry i dindnt have time to read everything im in a hurry but this struck me a few minutes ago when playing

the dream zanarkand is inside sin you fight against jecht above it, this is also why people can go from the dream zanarkand to the real world through sin. and reverse.

No. The dream zanarkand is physical and is somewhere in Spira. THe city you saw in Sin is Jecht's memories of his Dream Zanarkand thanks to pyrefiles.

also yu yevon made the dream.(in a way he did)

if your dream would be real where would you keep it .

right, as close as possible right?

Well ya, something like this.

Fayth: The dreams of the fayth summoned the memories of the city. They summoned all the buildings, all the people who lived there.

Yu Yevon used the fayth to summon the dream from inside Sin.

teh reason why sin came to dream zanarkand i havent figured out yet but once i got a theory about that ill post it.

The Sin that appear at the start of the game wanted to see his son Tidus so he went to dream zanarkand.

[Captain Maxx Power]

So...Is Dream Zanarkand the Matrix? That seems to be the most logical way I can think of it, a group of people caught in their own reality that can be drawn out when brought into contact with something from the 'real world', in this case Sin.

One thing I'd like to know is any evidence that suggests that Dream Zanarkand is a tangiable place at any point? And also if the Final Aeon is used to create the new Sin, how can Sin be anything more than an extension of this Aeon? Pyreflies binded together by Gravity spells (dunno where THAT one came from exactly) could still be dissapated in theory, much like the Aeons dissapear in a puff of pyreflies. Or maybe I'm just not getting this whole thing about how pyreflies work.

[Masamune·1600]

So...Is Dream Zanarkand the Matrix? That seems to be the most logical way I can think of it, a group of people caught in their own reality that can be drawn out when brought into contact with something from the 'real world', in this case Sin.

That's actually not a terrible way to put it. Residents of Dream Zanarkand aren't aware of anything beyond the city's boundaries, and are to a degree controlled by Yu Yevon, so the "system" could be likened to the Matrix, at least in how people are controlled.

One thing I'd like to know is any evidence that suggests that Dream Zanarkand is a tangiable place at any point?

Dream Zanarkand is always a fully palpable, physical location. This has been confirmed by the Ultimania Omega Guide for FFX, and can be inferred by examining the situation logically.

And also if the Final Aeon is used to create the new Sin, how can Sin be anything more than an extension of this Aeon? Pyreflies binded together by Gravity spells (dunno where THAT one came from exactly) could still be dissapated in theory, much like the Aeons dissapear in a puff of pyreflies. Or maybe I'm just not getting this whole thing about how pyreflies work.

Pyreflies are difficult to grasp, particularly since neither FFX nor FFX-2 provides much information on them. Defined in FFX-2 as...

Glossary of Spira: -Pyreflies-
A type of matter that drifts throughout Spira via its waterways. Despite the name, pyreflies are not insects and have no physical form. Pyreflies are known to react with our thoughts and preserve them as illusions. They are related to fiends, aeons, and even Sin, but exactly how remains unclear.

...they are left (perhaps deliberately) ambiguous. Despite the esoteric presentation of the concept, however, much can be inferred using what we do know.

A more accurate way to describe pyreflies (as opposed to the definition), based on what we see in-game, in both X and X-2, would be that they "react with our thoughts and" give them physical form. Basically, pyreflies seem to be able to coalesce into a physical entity based on the thoughts or spirit from which the congealed form is derived. The "Dreams" living in Dream Zanarkand (and the city itself), for example, are likely wholly comprised of pyreflies.

An Aeon, then, would receive its physical form from pyreflies (explaining why an Aeon's physical form dissolves to pyreflies when defeated), though effectively be "defined" by the "dream" of the fayth be utilized by the Summoner. As a result, Jecht (or, rather, Braska's Final Aeon) would have a definite physical form, created from pyreflies.

In the tradition originally established by Yunalesca, the (current) Final Aeon is used to "defeat" Sin. This actually perpetuates Sin, however, because Yu Yevon can possess the Final Aeon, which takes on one of Yu Yevon's original roles. Yu Yevon would have been the physical "anchor" for the first Sin; in other words, he was the point around which all the pyreflies would have coalesced to form Sin.

Mika: He who crafts the souls of the dead into unholy armor. An armor
called Sin. Clad in it, Yu Yevon is invincible. And the only thing that
could have pierced that armor, you have destroyed! Nothing can stop it
now.

Auron: It depends on what you mean by "alive." He is no longer human.
But then... I saw something of Jecht there in that shell, couldn't you?
You must have felt him when you came in contact with Sin.

As suggested by these statements, Sin really is an "armor," or a "shell." Having been "pierced" by the Final Aeon, Sin is defeated, but Yu Yevon merely possesses the Final Aeon, and uses it to perform his initial role, acting as the anchor for the pyreflies that comprise Sin--its heart, so to speak. Meanwhile, Yu Yevon's soul (the "bug" that acts as the final boss of FFX) is free to continue its desperate, immutable mission--the Summoning of Dream Zanarkand and its populace.

With the possessed Final Aeon acting as an anchor, the pyreflies can be held together by Gravity Magic (this information, the use of Gravity to hold Sin together, also comes from the Ultimania. It's not exactly intuitive, either).

The Final Aeon and Sin, then, can be considered akin so far as one is at the heart of the other, and both are composed of pyreflies. However, "pyrefly matter" seems to be differentiable, at least so far as the Final Aeon (or, originally, Yu Yevon) and Sin the shell are somewhat unique. They are not, of course, completely separate--the Final Aeon is at the heart of Sin, and, in many ways, is Sin.

[I Took the Red Pill]

The part that confuses me is when the actual Zanarkand was destroyed. Was it during the machina war, or when Sin came to Tidus's Zanarkand. If it was during the machina war, Tidus was never real exluding the dream? Someone please help me out here.

[Christmas]

The part that confuses me is when the actual Zanarkand was destroyed. Was it during the machina war, or when Sin came to Tidus's Zanarkand.

It was during the machina wars that the real Zanarkand is destroyed.
In the begining of the game, when Sin attacked Tidus' Zanarkand, that is the dream Zanarkand.

If it was during the machina war, Tidus was never real exluding the dream? Someone please help me out here.

Ad for the never real, it is partially correct but that is something to take note of.That is depend on how you define "real".

Dream Zanarkand is something like an aeon and is created through the pyrefiles which make it look "real" along with all its resident.

Dream Zanarkand IS a physical location just like Tidus is a "physical person" which you can touch him and feel him like a "real" person

[I Took the Red Pill]

ok thanks

[Renmiri]

Why do the fayth dream of Tydus Zanarkand ?
- Do they do it because they want to ?
- Does Yu Yeveon forces the to do it ?
- Why would Yu Yevon want a dream Zanarkand ?

I just don't get that part...

[Renmiri]

ok thanks

Hey see if you like my tale about "you"

http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=74764

They call me Sin… Sir Jecht's memories

The battles are getting harder and harder! I finally managed to get where I want but I am exhausted, unable to think straight any longer… But I can't afford to loose my control. Not now. I battled too much to get here. Somehow I thought it would be easier this time.

I have to fight my murdering urges. Just a bit longer. My son Tidus is down there. I gave up too much to loose him now, but I can barely keep myself from killing him and all around him, oblivious to what I destroy. I need Auron to get my son out of there before I can't hold myself any longer. I fear the worst. Auron, where are you ?!?

Patience. If I loose my temper all is lost. I will be engulfed in a murderous rage and all the last 10 years would have been in vain. Patience, ha! I never had it, now it is even more impossible… Damn it, Auron where are you ?!? I can't hold out much longer.

Finally! What took you so long ? Of course I'm sure about it! Give me my son! Now!

...

[Christmas]

Why do the fayth dream of Tydus Zanarkand ?
- Do they do it because they want to ?

Cause Zanarkand is going to get destroy by the Bevelle soldiers and they can't bear to let it happens.

- Does Yu Yeveon forces the to do it ?

Something like they might have a mutual agreement in the begining but later the fayth regretted it.

Why would Yu Yevon want a dream Zanarkand ?

To see the place he rule forever live and flourish.

[Little Blue]

i understyand the majority of the stuff going on here, but i have a question about when the real Zanarkand was destroyed.

From what i understand from Maechen and others in the game, Zanarkand was destroyed by Sin, bevelles troops got to the top of Gagazet, saw all the Fayth nd got chased down the mountan by Sin, then some time later, some scouts crossed gagazet and found the ruins of Zanarkand.

Ok, so did the fayth gather before Sins arrival, were the people ordered up gagazet and told to become fayth by Yu Yevon before he became sin, or were the populace manipulated into it after sin destroyed Zanarkand, and so leaving only the survivors to become the Fayth?

[Christmas]

Ok, so did the fayth gather before Sins arrival, were the people ordered up gagazet and told to become fayth by Yu Yevon before he became sin, or were the populace manipulated into it after sin destroyed Zanarkand, and so leaving only the survivors to become the Fayth?

You can't have Dream Zanarkand or Sin if there is no fayth to begin with.

Cause the fayth is needed to summon Dream Zanarkand and after that, Yu Yevon gather pyrefiles with gravity spells and created Sin to protect him and Dream Zanarkand.

So all of them become fayth before Sin came about.

[Little Blue]

You can't have Dream Zanarkand or Sin if there is no fayth to begin with.

That wasnt what i asked, but yeah.

Cause the fayth is needed to summon Dream Zanarkand and after that, Yu Yevon gather pyrefiles with gravity spells and created Sin to protect him and Dream Zanarkand.

So all of them become fayth before Sin came about.

But if Sin is just an Armour, it doesnt need Fayth to exist. So why couldnt Yu Yevon become Sin, obliterate Zanarkand and once the survivers become the fayth couldnt Yevon begin summoning the Dream Zanarkand from within Sin

[BG-57]

Now can the Fayth freely travel between Dream Zanarkand and Spira, without Sin's help? Bahamut's Fayth seems to be able to appear there at will, albeit in a noncoporeal form.

The self-contained nature of Zanarkand made me wonder how the Abes could be playing another team, but when I replayed the opening I found out the Abes were playing the Duggles from block C-south. I guess Zanarkand like is New York City, with multiple teams for the same sport.