One Question That Needs Clearing Up...

[Masamune·1600]

Could be, I'm not trying to refute or reinvent anything. I'm just trying to understand it better. I'm sorry if I am annoying you.

Believe it or not, your posts are helping me tremendously, even if we don't agree in every point. I have a much better understanding of the mythology now and I believe my writing can only benefit from this new understanding.

I apologize if my previous response came off a little harsh. I'm glad you feel that my advice can help.

I granted this point already. What I question is what was Yu Yevon before he became the "thing" that he is now. Why did he submit himself to being it ? Why did he cast Sin ? Didn't he - the Yu Yevon that was still human - know that like Vegnagun, his Sin would do a lot more harm than good ?

Unfortunately, it's impossible to know what Yu Yevon was before he "became" Sin. All we're really told is that he was "peerless" as a Summoner...

Fayth: Yu Yevon was once a summoner, long ago. He was peerless. Yet now
he lives for one purpose: only to summon. He is neither good, nor evil.
He is awake, yet he dreams. But...maybe not forever.

...and that he was the leader of Zanarkand (the original city). Here, you can elaborate without fear of contradicting the game (although there's no evidence to support ideas, either--we're just not told enough), although the implication is that Yu Yevon was genuinely interested in the "survival" of Zanarkand.

OK, now I understand. I just question the need for destruction, not because it doesn't make sense but because it bothers me, the senseless , mindless killing, with no point, not even an evil poit to it like greed, lust for power, revenge, etc..

It's meant to be more tragic, I think, as Yu Yevon isn't so much a villain as an almost accidental perpetrator of a process that, for the good of humanity, must end.

There is NO mention of Yu Yevon in the quote below, the one you posted. Like I said, the people from Zanarkand did it, willingly, but it is by no means clear that they were working with Yu Yevon. IMHO he betrayed them and did something they didn't want to be a part off, hence their long standing efforts to kill Sin

Yu Yevon would have necessarily been involved in the notion, not simply because he was the leader of Zanarkand, but because he was the one who actually carried out the Summoning of Dream Zanarkand. In a sense, the only way he could have betrayed the Fayth was by failing to summon--which, rather quickly, became an impossibility.

Fayth: Yu Yevon was once a summoner, long ago. He was peerless. Yet now
he lives for one purpose: only to summon. He is neither good, nor evil.
He is awake, yet he dreams. But...maybe not forever.

The lines regarding wakefulness and dreaming also implies complicity within the manifestation of Dream Zanarkand. Again, given that Yu Yevon is bound up completely within the Summoning, he cannot "betray" the original plan, although he also becomes incapable of letting it go. Basically, the mere fact that Yu Yevon is and always has been the summoner...

Yuna: The fayth said it's pointless to keep dreaming. The dream will
disappear, he said. What did he mean? And what is it that Yu Yevon is
summoning from within Sin?

Tidus: The dream of the fayth.

...tells one that he was directly involved with the original notion of perpetuating Zanarkand.

Not sure it was Yu Yevon. Someone summoned Dream Zanarkand and all the fayth plus this someone did it because they wished "to preserve the memory.."

Refer to the above, especially the final dialogue segment involving Tidus and Yuna. It is flatly stated that Yu Yevon is summoning the Dream of the Fayth--in other words, Dream Zanarkand and all who live there. Also of note is that the Dream unravels specifically when Yu Yevon is destroyed.

OK now I believe you missed something of waht Maechen and Yunalesca said. Bevelle had NO REASON to glorify Yu Yevon, their enemy and the killer of their people. Bevelle could have just as well made a religion where Yu Yevon was the "Demon" who brought Sin to Spira (which is closer to the truth, actually) and put one of their Maesters as God or Sacred Teacher.

Except this is not what Maechen says.

Maechen:
"Rumors flew in Bevelle about Sin's sudden appearance."
"They said that the people of Zanarkand became the fayth, that they had called Sin."
"And that the man responsible..."
"was none other than the summoner Yevon, ruler of Zanarkand!"
"Yes, the lord father of Lady Yunalesca."
"On the eve of Zanarkand's destruction, Lady Yunalesca..."
"had fled to safety with her husband, Zaon."
"Later, the two used the Final Summoning to defeat Sin."
"Yet the people of Bevelle still feared Yu Yevon."
"It was to quell his wrath that they revered him, and first spread his teachings."
"And so were born the temples of Yevon."
"I suppose it's possible Yunalesca had planned it that way from the start!"
"A fair trade, she defeats Sin in exchange for her lord father's honor."
"Of course, there's no proof. No, the facts are lost in the mists of time."
"And who'd admit Yevon was an enemy of Bevelle?"
"You can bet the temples had a hand in covering that one up!"
"And that, as they say, is that."

It's completely possible that the Yevon (the political entity) could have demonized Yu Yevon, rather than revering him. This is not, however, what happened. Moreover, there are explicit reasons for Yevon's course of action: the initial reverence may have (as suggested by Maechen) involved fear of Yu Yevon, while creating an object of worship with a convenient code for atonement allowed it to effectively manipulate and control the people of Spira. While Yu Yevon the summoner has nothing to do with a lust for power, such is not the case for his namesake organization (that, just to be clear, has nothing to really do with him).

What I understood from Maechen, Mikka and Yunalesca is that Bevelle was forced into gloryfying Yu Yevon by Yu Yevon himself (before he turned into a thingy ?) or, as Maechen insinuates, by Yunalesca bent on preserving her father's honorable name in spite of him joining the mass murder business..

This has to do with a misunderstanding of the backstory continuity. Yu Yevon himself would have never had any contact with Bevelle. Sin destroyed the original Zanarkand before Bevelle arrived at the city. Since Sin predates contact with Bevelle, we know that Yu Yevon had "become" Sin before he could have spoken with Bevelle. And, once he became Sin, Yu Yevon lost the ability to communicate with anything, really.

What Yu Yevon "turned into" was what one might call the physical manifestation of his soul. After the original Sin was pierced by Yunalesca's Final Aeon, Yu Yevon's physical body would have been lost, and said "soul" would have possessed that which was once Zaon.

As far as Yunalesca is concerned, her primary aim seems to have been the preservation of her father's honor. It's entirely possible that she intended for events to follow the course that they did, but this does not implicate Yu Yevon.

Not true. Dream Zanarkand has no Aeons, no fayth and no monsters, as all is new to Tidus and he doesn't even have a sword when he starts the game, being a citizen of Dream Zanarkand. We know the Zanarkand of the fayth had 2 summoners at least: Lenne and Yu Yevon and it had fayth or at least people in it knew that fayth existed.
Dream Zanarkand is quite different from Spira's Zanarkand if you pay attention.

There are two ideas, which are not mutually exclusive, which account for such change. This change is obvious; one might also note that Yevon Dome seems to have been replaced by the Blitzball stadium, and so on.

First, realize that Dream Zanarkand exists in dynamic time; in other words, that the city exists within time, meaning the population is not locked in stasis. People (Dreams) are born, and people die. There is a certain overarching reality that must be maintained; otherwise, Dream Zanarkand does not serve its original purpose. However, as Dream Zanarkand moves through time, it likely evolves--within very rigidly defined limits.

Also, one must consider that "Summoning" would be a threat to the preservation of the system--after all, the city and the people themselves are being summoned. Likely, the city as originally remembered was intentionally Dreamt without Summoning--this prevents the city from moving "beyond control," while also eliminating a reminder of the sorrowful events that forced the realization of Dream Zanarkand in the first place.

Dream Zanarkand is a continuation of Zanarkand, even if not in an exactly literal sense, because such is what we are told.

Yes, now and for the past 1,000 years. But we know Yu Yevon was human once, we know he had a child, he had free will and all that. At that time - before his transformation - he could have betrayed Zanarkand

Yu Yevon once had free will, and had a child, but he did not betray Zanarkand. It was a collective decision to preserve the city in its Dream form, and Yu Yevon carried this out. He carries it out even in the present.

Agreed. I'm still confused as to why Yu Yevon needs a final Aeon's fayth if Sin is not an Aeon

Initially, he did not need a Final Aeon. He himself was the physical anchor for Sin. However, after being pierced by Yunalesca's Final Aeon, his physical body would have been destroyed. He thus needs a new Aeon to act as the foundation for Sin (which, in turn, exists to armor Yu Yevon), while "protecting" Yu Yevon's "soul" in case Sin is again pierced. Once a Final Aeon pierces Sin, he can possess that new Final Aeon, reform Sin, and begin the pattern again. In this way, Sin is perpetuated.

My motivation to be puzzling so much about this issue is my Fan Fiction piece. But I don't want to make FFX fit into my fiction. Just the opposite: I want to understand FFX better to better write my fan fiction. If I'm wrong, and what I think is happening in FFX is not what is in the game I want to know and I want to fix it in my writtings.

In that case, it might be best to focus on something that allows for creativity, yet doesn't conflict with the game. You might consider writing about Zanarkand during the Machina War, and give Yu Yevon a personality, force him to make military and political decisions, and finally lead him to the fateful decision of attempting to preserve Zanarkand in Dream form. This is just one example; anything can work in theory, so long as it adheres to the overriding plot points of FFX. If you wish to write about Sin for your fan fiction piece, you might detail where it goes and what it attacks, and follow the pilgrimage of a past High Summoner. It's up to you.

I said it very clearly in my last post that I know Yu Yevon is, and has been for the past 1,000 years, a "thing" incapable of motivation. I just write some motivation for him in my FF because I think it is more "dramatic". In my view it is an acceptable deviation of the mythology, just to add more dramatic tension. But I certainly don't want to reinvent the entire FFX mythology. I just want to understand it better so I can write better about it

I suppose you might consider creating asides revealing the disembodied feelings of Yu Yevon--he cannot do or change anything, but somewhere, he has an opinion on what is happening. From there, you could assign emotions (sorrow, excitement, whatever), so long as it remains that such feelings are irrelevant. This would be, I think, a very minor deviation.

Sounds good. But where do pireflies come from ? Don't they came from the dead of Spira ?
So if I wrote that Sin "feeds" on the pireflies of the people it kills I would not be far from the truth, would I ?.

Pyreflies are, for the most part, unexplained. In FFX we are told...

Maechen:
"Ahem!"
"They may be called "pyreflies" but they aren't really "flies", you see."
"They're those lights you see whenever a fiend dies."
"The little fellows are responsible for a few fantastic phenomena."
"Visions of the past, spheres, fiends--these are all the pyreflies' doing."
"In fact..."
"pyreflies have something to do with aeons, too."
"The dreams of the fayth reach through the spirit of the summoner..."
"And that which is unreal becomes real for all to see!"
"Or maybe not. Who knows?
"And that, as they say, is that."

...while FFX-2 states

Glossary of Spira: -Pyreflies-
A type of matter that drifts throughout Spira via its waterways. Despite the name, pyreflies are not insects and have no physical form. Pyreflies are known to react with our thoughts and preserve them as illusions. They are related to fiends, aeons, and even Sin, but exactly how remains unclear.

The unfortunate reality of pyreflies is that they are not very well explained. These were some of my conclusions on pyreflies from earlier in the thread.

...they are left (perhaps deliberately) ambiguous. Despite the esoteric presentation of the concept, however, much can be inferred using what we do know.

A more accurate way to describe pyreflies (as opposed to the definition), based on what we see in-game, in both X and X-2, would be that they "react with our thoughts and" give them physical form. Basically, pyreflies seem to be able to coalesce into a physical entity based on the thoughts or spirit from which the congealed form is derived. The "Dreams" living in Dream Zanarkand (and the city itself), for example, are likely wholly comprised of pyreflies.

An Aeon, then, would receive its physical form from pyreflies (explaining why an Aeon's physical form dissolves to pyreflies when defeated), though effectively be "defined" by the "dream" of the fayth be utilized by the Summoner. As a result, Jecht (or, rather, Braska's Final Aeon) would have a definite physical form, created from pyreflies.

In the tradition originally established by Yunalesca, the (current) Final Aeon is used to "defeat" Sin. This actually perpetuates Sin, however, because Yu Yevon can possess the Final Aeon, which takes on one of Yu Yevon's original roles. Yu Yevon would have been the physical "anchor" for the first Sin; in other words, he was the point around which all the pyreflies would have coalesced to form Sin.

Pyreflies, it seems, are a kind of intangible matter that react with memories and emotions, and give them a physical reality. They therefore can be understood to comprise and reveal almost all that is supernatural.

Unfortunately, there is no way to know the origin of pyreflies; they seem to exist mainly as a very complicated plot element. Given the existence of the Farplane (the afterlife of the world of FFX), I suspect (and this is a personal opinion--it is in no way canonical) that they're somehow derivative. Beyond that, however, much is left to speculation.

Sin still, however, does not feed on the pyreflies of the people it kills; the period when it gathers pyreflies to reform is the Calm--the period when there are no Sin attacks.

[Renmiri]

I apologize if my previous response came off a little harsh. I'm glad you feel that my advice can help.

Not harsh, don't worry about it. Your advice helps a lot.

It's meant to be more tragic, I think, as Yu Yevon isn't so much a villain as an almost accidental perpetrator of a process that, for the good of humanity, must end.

You could be right but an accidental mass murderer makes for bad fan fiction… At least is not what I like to write about.

Refer to the .. the final dialogue segment involving Tidus and Yuna. It is flatly stated that Yu Yevon is summoning the Dream of the Fayth--in other words, Dream Zanarkand and all who live there. Also of note is that the Dream unravels specifically when Yu Yevon is destroyed.

Interesting quote from them. I had missed that one. Does this mean Sin is an integral part of Dream Zanarkand's summoning ? Was Dream Zanarkand the reason for Sin ?

Good Fan fiction vibes in here: the fayth could be feeling the conflict between wishing to preserve their memories and dreams and being responsible for so much carnage… I can write pages on that!

there are explicit reasons for Yevon's Church course of action: the initial reverence may have (as suggested by Maechen) involved fear of Yu Yevon, while creating an object of worship with a convenient code for atonement allowed it to effectively manipulate and control the people of Spira...

We agree 100% on this except for the origin of the idea. You say

Except this is not what Maechen says.
"Yet the people of Bevelle still feared Yu Yevon."
"It was to quell his wrath that they revered him, and first spread his teachings."
"And so were born the temples of Yevon."

So you are saying that Bevelle came with the idea of glorifying Yu Yevon all on it's own ? That is not what I read in the quote.

When I read It was to quell his wrath that they revered him I read that he was wrathful at one time and that he himself (or at least someone claiming to speak for him - Yunalesca) demanded that people from Bevelle revered him

Sin destroyed the original Zanarkand before Bevelle arrived at the city. Since Sin predates contact with Bevelle, we know that Yu Yevon had "become" Sin before he could have spoken with Bevelle. And, once he became Sin, Yu Yevon lost the ability to communicate with anything, really.

Interesting. Yes, that would prevent Bevelle and Yu Yevon from talking after Sin appeared.
But wasn't Yuna's Zanarkand destroyed by Bevelle's bombing ? Where did you get it that it was Sin who destroyed all ?

one must consider that "Summoning" would be a threat to the preservation of the system--after all, the city and the people themselves are being summoned

Great point!

In that case, it might be best to focus on.. Zanarkand during the Machina War, and give Yu Yevon a personality...

Pyreflies are, for the most part, unexplained...Sin still, however, does not feed on the pyreflies of the people it kills; the period when it gathers pyreflies to reform is the Calm--the period when there are no Sin attacks

Great minds think alike! I have 3 stories out already with the plot you describe. I made the mysterious pireflies a big part of my background story arch. The thing you say about Sin not colecting them immediately matches perfectly with some of my imagined uses for them. I still have to review the tales below after all the new info you presented me, but it seems I can use most of it.

http://www.fanfiction.net/~renmiri
Here are the first paragraphs for my 1,000 years ago chapter (story #2). It shows how pireflies get into the story

Spira's Modern History: 1,000 years ago
Digging through long lost Galaxy League ruins Tar-Sec discovers Spira's h-pirefly records. Astonished he reads about a planet where it's people release small spheres of pure magic energy when they die, energy that can be harnessed and used to create powerful magic weapons or to concoct powerful magic potions. Unconvinced that such a thing would exist and remain hidden for 3,000 years he almost throws the records away but he stumbles on a locked box. When he opens it several tiny spheres of light float away leaving a strange gun and a vial of amber fluid on the bottom of the box....

"Holy [img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img][img]/xxx.gif[/img]! This thing looks like a supernova on a bullet!" he thinks to himself... This will be worth tons of gil!" he thinks amazed. He gathers all the records, the gun and the vial of liquid and reloads the gun. Aiming at the place the records were found he shoots another "supernova" bullet and obliterates all remaining clues to his treasure. Now he is the only one who will ever know about it, Tar-Sec thinks smugly.

Six months later... Tar-Sec's spaceship arrives at the outskirts of Spira's solar system. It was the first time in 3,000 years that a spaceship crossed that remote region of space.

Tar-Sec and his team discuss their approach at the ship's briefing room. Despite the ship's captains wishes they couldn't just kill all in Spira.

"The records are quite clear: only Spira's humanoid species can create the pireflies we need. If we kill all now there will be no more pireflies after the ones we harvest today" said the ship's science officer
".. We need to find some local who is willing to work for us. Someone who can tend the pirefly producing operation" said Tar-Sec

"Well, the only intelligent species there are humanoid themselves. Would a humanoid agree to betray his fellow humanoids ?" asks the ship's science officer...

"Oh, we can find a way to persuade them" said the captain smiling cruelly

"Precisely! I will tell the strongest clans we will kill them if they don't agree to supply us with their weakest and I'm sure we will get a great farm hand down there" said Tar-Sec smiling...(Guess who Tar-Sec contacted ? Zanarkand and Bevelle, BEvelle accepted, Zanarkand refused, hence the war... )

[Masamune·1600]

Interesting quote from them. I had missed that one. Does this mean Sin is an integral part of Dream Zanarkand's summoning ? Was Dream Zanarkand the reason for Sin ?

In a sense. Sin really is an armor; it ostensibly would prevent anything from interrupting Yu Yevon while Summoning the Dreams of the Fayth.

We agree 100% on this except for the origin of the idea. You say

Except this is not what Maechen says.
"Yet the people of Bevelle still feared Yu Yevon."
"It was to quell his wrath that they revered him, and first spread his teachings."
"And so were born the temples of Yevon."

So you are saying that Bevelle came with the idea of glorifying Yu Yevon all on it's own ? That is not what I read in the quote.

When I read It was to quell his wrath that they revered him I read that he was wrathful at one time and that he himself (or at least someone claiming to speak for him - Yunalesca) demanded that people from Bevelle revered him

Sin destroyed the original Zanarkand before Bevelle arrived at the city. Since Sin predates contact with Bevelle, we know that Yu Yevon had "become" Sin before he could have spoken with Bevelle. And, once he became Sin, Yu Yevon lost the ability to communicate with anything, really.

Interesting. Yes, that would prevent Bevelle and Yu Yevon from talking after Sin appeared.
But wasn't Yuna's Zanarkand destroyed by Bevelle's bombing ? Where did you get it that it was Sin who destroyed all ?

Another explanation by Maechen involves the destruction of Zanarkand; in the passage, Maechen shows that Bevelle arrived at Zanarkand after Sin appeared, and later discovered the city already destroyed.

Maechen:
"There is a legend, you know."
"Just before the horrible Sin appeared..."
"a terrible war raged between Bevelle and Zanarkand."
"When the armies of Bevelle attacked Mount Gagazet, they heard a song echoing across the snowy slopes."
""'Tis a song from an otherworld," they said. The soldiers panicked and ran."
"And then, as if to pursue the retreating armies, Sin appeared!"
"Some time later, scouts from Bevelle braved the mountain."
"On the other side, they witnessed the ruins that had been Zanarkand."
"The city destroyed. Not a single soul left standing. Gone!"
"In its place, a multitude of the fayth had gathered on Gagazet."
"They were singing a song."
"It's the song we now call the "Hymn of the Fayth.""
"And that, as they say, is that."
"Well...maybe not all of it."

This extends naturally into Maechen's remarks on the original Final Summoning. Following the above chain of events, "rumors flew in Bevelle [concerning the appearance of Sin]." As it became known that Sin was Yu Yevon, they (Bevelle) understandably reacted with fear.

Also of note, regarding Maechen's remarks, is that the Hymn of the Fayth was first heard as Bevelle advanced on Gagazet. As the Fayth are later discovered singing this hymn, we know that the Fayth (and therefore the Dreaming) also began prior to Bevelle reaching the ruins of Zanarkand (once again consistent with the established continuity of FFX).

[Renmiri]

In a sense. Sin really is an armor; it ostensibly would prevent anything from interrupting Yu Yevon while Summoning the Dreams of the Fayth.

Another explanation by Maechen involves the destruction of Zanarkand; in the passage, Maechen shows that Bevelle arrived at Zanarkand after Sin appeared, and later discovered the city already destroyed.

This extends naturally into Maechen's remarks on the original Final Summoning. Following the above chain of events, "rumors flew in Bevelle [concerning the appearance of Sin]." As it became known that Sin was Yu Yevon, they (Bevelle) understandably reacted with fear.

Also of note, regarding Maechen's remarks, is that the Hymn of the Fayth was first heard as Bevelle advanced on Gagazet. As the Fayth are later discovered singing this hymn, we know that the Fayth (and therefore the Dreaming) also began prior to Bevelle reaching the ruins of Zanarkand (once again consistent with the established continuity of FFX).

Great stuff, thanks!

Yes, you are correct, Bevelle would not have talked to Yu Yevon. That still leaves Yunalesca though. She may have been the one to come up with the demand to worship her father's name.
Darn it, lots of rewrites needed in my FF, as I had Yu Yevon conscious and human after Zanarkand died.. My Yunalesca story is shot!!!
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2687313/1/

BTW, since you seem to know so much, do you know who is Pennance and how does he fit in all this ? He is the guy who shows up after the battle with Jecht in FFX international version

[Masamune·1600]

BTW, since you seem to know so much, do you know who is Pennance and how does he fit in all this ? He is the guy who shows up after the battle with Jecht in FFX international version

Penance, as far as I can tell, doesn't really have any bearing on the plot. It was only added in for the PAL/International versions of the game, and its existence goes unrecognized once it is defeated--the game cuts back to the airship, and there is no discussion of the epic battle. In short, Penance seems to exist merely as a challenge: it is far more difficult than Nemesis (the hardest boss in the NTSC-U/C version of the game), and its appearance neither clarifies nor expands any real plot point.

[Renmiri]

Penance, as far as I can tell, doesn't really have any bearing on the plot

Great, thanks!

BTW, I have added all the imput from this thread to my "prequel" to FFX on Fan Fiction.net
If you want to check it out, it's at
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2693791/1/

In it I make Bevelle harvest Spira's pirefly energy because an alien ship is threatening them. The story would work pretty well without the alien ship bit but I thought that having Bevelle starting a war just to better mine their world's best energy source - pireflies - and then using religion to keep it's citizens content hit too close to home, if you get my drift..
(If you don't get it just switch "Pirefly energy" with "Oil" and voila!)