One Question That Needs Clearing Up...

[Christmas]

But if Sin is just an Armour, it doesnt need Fayth to exist. So why couldnt Yu Yevon become Sin, obliterate Zanarkand and once the survivers become the fayth couldnt Yevon begin summoning the Dream Zanarkand from within Sin

Why dun we look at it this way. If this can be done, then there isn't any point of creating Dream Zanarkand cause Yu Yevon can just create Sin and destroy the Bevelle guys so the Real Zanarkand will be safe...

We should remember that Real Zanarkand is under threat from Bevelle that is why Yu Yevon resort to this.

Also something to take note of:

Fayth: Yes. Even if you defeat Sin with the Final Summoning, Yu Yevon will live. Yu Yevon will join with the Final Aeon. He will transform it into a new Sin.

Now can the Fayth freely travel between Dream Zanarkand and Spira, without Sin's help? Bahamut's Fayth seems to be able to appear there at will, albeit in a noncoporeal form.

It appear so seeing how the Fayth appeared at the begining of the game.

[Little Blue]

Why dun we look at it this way. If this can be done, then there isn't any point of creating Dream Zanarkand cause Yu Yevon can just create Sin and destroy the Bevelle guys so the Real Zanarkand will be safe...

Well yeah, there is that argument. But whose to say that he will be able to control Sin once Bevelle was destroyed and prevent it from destorying Zanarkand as well. This way, he can preserve Zanarkand with even more control than before and can still destroy bevelle should Sin happen to be passing. By destroying Zanarkand as Sin, his given the survivors a reason to become the Fayth, to preserve in a dream what was lost in reality

[Christmas]

Well yeah, there is that argument. But whose to say that he will be able to control Sin once Bevelle was destroyed and prevent it from destorying Zanarkand as well.

And as far as I know it, he had control of Sin since Sin never attacked Dream Zanarkand until Jecht become the final Aeon and wasn't quite under his full control at that moment.

But please note that it happens only because Jecht is the Final Aeon.

Also, if I am not wrong as I stated in the previous post quoted from the script, the Final Aeon act as a "core" while Sin as the "shell" to enable the whole thing to happen. So, in order to have Sin, you must have the core.

[Little Blue]

And as far as I know it, he had control of Sin since Sin never attacked Dream Zanarkand until Jecht become the final Aeon and wasn't quite under his full control at that moment.

I was refering to the real zanarkand, but your statement this does imply a certain level of control that Yevon has over Sin, even with the influence of the final aeon, only in this case, Jechts influence was greater.

Also, if I am not wrong as I stated in the previous post quoted from the script, the Final Aeon act as a "core" while Sin as the "shell" to enable the whole thing to happen. So, in order to have Sin, you must have the core.

But wasnt Yu Yevon the Original Core, before Zaon (Yunalesca's Final Aeon) defeated Sin and whatever was left of Yevon possessed him? there was no final aeon at Sins birth, and because of this, Yevon may have had a considerable degree of control over Sin, for short periods at least, eg, allowing the time for the survivors to becme fayth for the dream.

[Christmas]

I was refering to the real zanarkand, and this does imply a certain level of control that Yevon has over Sin, even with the influence of the final aeon, only in this case, Jechts influence was greater

If he doesn't bear to attack Dream Zanarkand, why will he go attack the Real Zanarkand?

And even given though that Sin is destructive by nature, the Sin before Jecht never attacked Dream Zanarkand.

But wasnt Yu Yevon the Original Core, before Zaon (Yunalesca's Final Aeon) defeated Sin and whatever was left of Yevon possessed him? there was no final aeon at Sins birth

That's right.With Yu Yevon himself as the original Core, there isn't anyone to influence him or anything like Jecht for example, so he will have full control of it.

[Little Blue]

If he doesn't bear to attack Dream Zanarkand, why will he go attack the Real Zanarkand?

this i have no explanation for. If he can destroy real Zanarkand before Bevelle, he may believe he has saved it from a terrible fate. Perhaps attacking real Zanarkand, and creating dream Zanarkand is his way of preserving a way of life that knows no war, utter peace and that is why he allowed Real to be destroyed and yet fights against Sins nature to preserve Dream.

That's right.With Yu Yevon himself as the original Core, there isn't anyone to influence him or anything like Jecht for example, so he will have full control of it.

To an extent yes, but he may lose control one day, Sin's will may be too strong to permentantly resist, and Yevon can only allow himself brief periods of control to prevent sin from destroying something, like the Dream, or the Fayth.

This brings me to a question about what is Sins true nature. To bring death and destruction as Yevon and the Fayth claim, or did Yu Yevon have some other purpose in mind for Sin, eg only attack places where the people might become developed enough to destroy the Fayth or even find the physical manifestation of the Dream?

[Christmas]

To an extent yes, but he may lose control one day, Sin's will may be too strong to permentantly resist, and Yevon can only allow himself brief periods of control to prevent sin from destroying something, like the Dream, or the Fayth.

I dun think Sin has any will...since it is a shell, and the core make it destructive.

This brings me to a question about what is Sins true nature. To bring death and destruction as Yevon and the Fayth claim, or did Yu Yevon have some other purpose in mind for Sin,

I believed that Sin will just keep on destroying stuff and continue the Spiral of Death because it had lasted for 1000 years already, so if it had something purpose in mind, maybe it should have done so it earlier.

eg only attack places where the people might become developed enough to destroy the Fayth or even find the physical manifestation of the Dream?

The people wouldn't become developed if the Yevon Church control them which is why Yunalesca strike a deal with them.

[Little Blue]

I dun think Sin has any will...since it is a shell, and the core make it destructive.

Bad choice of words, nature may have been a better word, since we both agree that sin is destructive by nature, but it is the core may direct sin, that may fights or reinforces itss nature

I believed that Sin will just keep on destroying stuff and continue the Spiral of Death because it had lasted for 1000 years already, so if it had something purpose in mind, maybe it should have done so it earlier.

The people wouldn't become developed if the Yevon Church control them which is why Yunalesca strike a deal with them.

Yeah, i was just curious about this as it was a theory i had about Sin, but never mnd

[look_out_below]

I think people are looking into the story to hard, coming up with anwsers that arent really there. Just sit back and enjoy playing the game while trying to ignore inconsistencies and plot holes found throughout the game. But i guess if people enjoy posting and arguing go right ahead. But since im here has anyone taken into account what the impact that Tidus's mother appearing in Spira's farplane might have for the previous theories.

[Masamune·1600]

You can't have Dream Zanarkand or Sin if there is no fayth to begin with.

Actually, no. Sin's existence is completely independent of the Fayth.

But if Sin is just an Armour, it doesnt need Fayth to exist. So why couldnt Yu Yevon become Sin, obliterate Zanarkand and once the survivers become the fayth couldnt Yevon begin summoning the Dream Zanarkand from within Sin

With the exception of the question of chronology, this is what happened. Dream Zanarkand is manifested by the Dreaming of the Fayth; Sin, however, exists as an autonomous entity.

Having said that, however, this turn of events forces one to assume that, among other things, Yu Yevon could begin the Summoning once Sin had already been formed.

Now can the Fayth freely travel between Dream Zanarkand and Spira, without Sin's help? Bahamut's Fayth seems to be able to appear there at will, albeit in a noncoporeal form.

The Fayth appear in Dream Zanarkand only in a disembodied spiritual form; this, however, would be the same as projecting an appearance anywhere else on Spira. As Dream Zanarkand is an actual physical location, such an appearance is, in and of itself, nothing profound. However, one would suspect that there are certain limitations involved in interposing in one's own realized memory, as the Fayth might have otherwise found a mechanism to end the Dreaming independent of the original accident (Jecht's contact with Sin).

The self-contained nature of Zanarkand made me wonder how the Abes could be playing another team, but when I replayed the opening I found out the Abes were playing the Duggles from block C-south. I guess Zanarkand like is New York City, with multiple teams for the same sport.

Yes. In fact, this is inevitable, as Dream Zanarkand is self-contained, and is unaware of anything beyond th boundaries of itself. As a result, it is completely self-depenedent--any form of entertainment would have to come from within.

Why dun we look at it this way. If this can be done, then there isn't any point of creating Dream Zanarkand cause Yu Yevon can just create Sin and destroy the Bevelle guys so the Real Zanarkand will be safe...

This is incorrect, as Sin is innately destructive. There is no check upon Sin as regards the preservation of the original Zanarkand (indeed, Sin is the destroyer of the city); therefore, this avenue of thought is impossible. Understandably, you're arguing from another point, but the opposing view does not require this either.

Well yeah, there is that argument. But whose to say that he will be able to control Sin once Bevelle was destroyed and prevent it from destorying Zanarkand as well. This way, he can preserve Zanarkand with even more control than before and can still destroy bevelle should Sin happen to be passing. By destroying Zanarkand as Sin, his given the survivors a reason to become the Fayth, to preserve in a dream what was lost in reality

In order for this continuity to work, one would have to assume the following.

1. That Yu Yevon could begin and continue to Summon Dream Zanarkand after giving himself to the destructive reality of Sin

2. That the residents of Zanarkand, without the urging or input of Yu Yevon, would have independently decided to end their lives as humans and become Fayth

3. That the Fayth would have wanted to dedicate themselves, without the input of influence of Yu Yevon, to the perpetuation of a substantiated memory of Zanarkand

4. That the Fayth would have believed that Yu Yevon both could begin Summoning having become Sin, and would have locked himself into the Summoning of Dream Zanarkand

5. That this sequence of events would somehow take place more effectively than the established chronology

Again, your idea is not terribly off, but the sequence of events you propose does not fully work.

And as far as I know it, he had control of Sin since Sin never attacked Dream Zanarkand until Jecht become the final Aeon and wasn't quite under his full control at that moment.

Incorrect. Yu Yevon's control over Sin has never been more than marginal; if it were more profound, Yu Yevon could have simply used Sin to defeat Bevelle, and allow the original Zanarkand to persist as a living city. Moreover, the original event which threatened the "spiral of death" was actually Jecht coming into contact with Sin. As the "system" embodied by Sin could only be threatened by interrupting the isolation of Dream Zanarkand, Yu Yevon would not have desired this contact on any rational level.

Further still, Jecht had nothing to do with the attack on a personal level; Sin is inherently destructive, the center of the "spiral of death," and so brings destruction wherever it goes. Jecht was responsible for Sin going to Dream Zanarkand (and in this way, he influenced it uniquely, although one must remember that his initial contact with Sin was accidental), but Sin attacked Dream Zanarkand because it is Sin, not because the system of control was any different than it had been throughout the past ~1000 years.

Also, if I am not wrong as I stated in the previous post quoted from the script, the Final Aeon act as a "core" while Sin as the "shell" to enable the whole thing to happen. So, in order to have Sin, you must have the core.

In a sense. Yu Yevon himself was the original physical foundation for Sin; the possession of the Final Aeon for such a purpose only came about after the original Final Summoning pierced Sin.

I was refering to the real zanarkand, and this does imply a certain level of control that Yevon has over Sin, even with the influence of the final aeon, only in this case, Jechts influence was greater

Not really. Refer to my comments above. In the case of Braska's Final Aeon, it would seem that Yu Yevon had not fully taken control. This process was gradual.

Jecht: I can't hear the Hymn so well anymore. Pretty soon, I'm gonna be
Sin. Completely. I'm glad you're here now. One thing, though... When it
starts, I won't be myself anymore. I won't be able to hold myself back.
I'm sorry.

At no time can one truly overcome the destructive nature of Sin (with Jecht/Braska's Final Aeon as the core, it could temporarily be pacified by the Hymn of the Fayth, but this is temporary). However, Jecht obviously had limited directive, which in time would have likely disappeared completely.

But wasnt Yu Yevon the Original Core, before Zaon (Yunalesca's Final Aeon) defeated Sin and whatever was left of Yevon possessed him? there was no final aeon at Sins birth

Yu Yevon was the original foundation, the anchoring point for the formation of Sin. Yu Yevon's physical body would have been destroyed during the first Final Summoning; however, his "soul" could from there possess the Final Aeon, and perpetuate the spiral of death.

[Christmas]

As a matter of fact that Jecht went to pay his son a visit because he wanted to and he turned out attacking the city.

But in a sense which I meant that Sin never took the initative to attack Dream Zanarkand and Jecht went on his free will to see his son.

[Masamune·1600]

If he doesn't bear to attack Dream Zanarkand, why will he go attack the Real Zanarkand?

Simply put, Sin never came into contact with it. Jecht disappeared at sea; given the danger to the spiral of death implicit in Sin reaching Dream Zanarkand, it seems likely that Yu Yevon would have done whatever he could to prevent such contact.

That's right.With Yu Yevon himself as the original Core, there isn't anyone to influence him or anything like Jecht for example, so he will have full control of it.

Obviously not. If Yu Yevon had full control, there would have been no need to establish Dream Zanarkand. Sin could have defeated Bevelle, and left the original Zanarkand to prosper. As repeatedly stated, Sin is intrinsically destructive, regardless of who or what forms the foundation.

This brings me to a question about what is Sins true nature. To bring death and destruction as Yevon and the Fayth claim, or did Yu Yevon have some other purpose in mind for Sin, eg only attack places where the people might become developed enough to destroy the Fayth or even find the physical manifestation of the Dream?

Sin's purpose was exactly as stated; it was armor that prevented any interruption to the Summoning of Dream Zanarkand. Whether or not Yu Yevon knew that Sin would and/or intended for Sin to be a force of destruction and bringer of death is a matter of speculation, until such time as official word on the subject is disseminated from SE. We do know that, so long as the tradition of the Final Summoning was perpetuated, the spiral of death could not end.

The people wouldn't become developed if the Yevon Church control them which is why Yunalesca strike a deal with them.

A culture's level of development has nothing to do with whether or not Sin attacks. The Yevonite Church controlled the people for its own purposes. As to Yunalesca, it is anachronistic to suggest that Yevon struck a deal with Yunalesca, as Yevon (the political entity, not the Summoner) did not exist yet.

Maechen:
"Rumors flew in Bevelle about Sin's sudden appearance."
"They said that the people of Zanarkand became the fayth, that they had called Sin."
"And that the man responsible..."
"was none other than the summoner Yevon, ruler of Zanarkand!"
"Yes, the lord father of Lady Yunalesca."
"On the eve of Zanarkand's destruction, Lady Yunalesca..."
"had fled to safety with her husband, Zaon."
"Later, the two used the Final Summoning to defeat Sin."
"Yet the people of Bevelle still feared Yu Yevon."
"It was to quell his wrath that they revered him, and first spread his teachings."
"And so were born the temples of Yevon."
"I suppose it's possible Yunalesca had planned it that way from the start!"
"A fair trade, she defeats Sin in exchange for her lord father's honor."
"Of course, there's no proof. No, the facts are lost in the mists of time."
"And who'd admit Yevon was an enemy of Bevelle?"
"You can bet the temples had a hand in covering that one up!"
"And that, as they say, is that."

I think people are looking into the story to hard, coming up with anwsers that arent really there. Just sit back and enjoy playing the game while trying to ignore inconsistencies and plot holes found throughout the game. But i guess if people enjoy posting and arguing go right ahead.

The answers are there, which I why I've been able to provide a coherent argument.

But since im here has anyone taken into account what the impact that Tidus's mother appearing in Spira's farplane might have for the previous theories.

No impact at all, really. Although the residents of Dream Zanarkand are manifested by the Dreaming of the Fayth, that doesn't reduce them to mere figments of the imagination. Rather, their "souls" are completely real, merely given substance by the Dreaming. However, as their physical link to life is through this Dreaming, its end means the physical death of Dream Zanarkand and its populace.

However, the residents of Dream Zanarkand are not immortal, and the population of the city remains in flux, like any human population. People (Dreams) die in the normal course of time, and go to the Farplane at death. The end of the Dreaming merely necessitates the entire city "dying" at once, as all lose their physical connection to Spira.

[d£v!l'$ ph0£n!x]

i do know one thing, dream zanarkand is art of spira . . . or ratherwas. 1,000 years ago

[ElVaCaNo02YTSCV]

Personally...I don't think Tidus was a dream...I just think he was dead.... like Auron, Seymour, and other people as well.... at least thats what I think.... but another thing is the he entered the farplane... so that doesn't work huh.... another thing that I can think of is.... The Toxin... from sin made everyone believe Tidus was a person there... there's several ways of the plot...

[Masamune·1600]

i do know one thing, dream zanarkand is art of spira . . . or ratherwas. 1,000 years ago

Dream Zanarkand has been a physical location in Spira since its initial realization ~1000 years before FFX. Even at the time of FFX, it was a fully real, physical location. The original Zanarkand was destroyed ~1000 years before FFX.

Personally...I don't think Tidus was a dream...

Even if one discounts the information divulged by the Bahamut Fayth...

Fayth: The remaining summoners and the townspeople that survived the
war... They all became fayth-fayth for the summoning.

Tidus: The summoning... You mean Sin?

Fayth: No. I mean this place. A Zanarkand that never sleeps.

Tidus: What?

Fayth: The dreams of the fayth summoned the memories of the city. They
summoned all the buildings, all the people who lived there.

Tidus: The people... What, they're all dreams? Me, too?

Fayth: Yes, you're a dream of the fayth. You, your father, your mother,
everyone. All dreams. And if the fayth stop dreaming...

The screen flashes, revealing the destruction of Zanarkand.

Tidus: No! So what if I'm a dream! I..I like being here.

Fayth: We've been dreaming so long...we're tired.

...it remains that Tidus "disappears" at the end of the game, when Yu Yevon is defeated and the Summoning is ended. Tidus himself is aware of this...

Tidus: Everyone! This is the last time we fight together, okay?

Wakka: Huh?

Tidus: What I'm trying to say is...after we beat Yu Yevon, I'll
disappear!

...but it is not his will to disappear. Rather, it is an inevitable reality, as he is a Dream of the Fayth, manifested in that Dreaming by the Summoning of Yu Yevon. Really, there can be no question that Tidus was a Dream.